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Instances of Poor World Building


Corvo the Crow

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The fact that seems to be three different titles of nobility in Westeros: king, lord, and ser.  There should be be Dukes (Starks, Arryns, Lannisters), Marquess (Baratheon, Tyrell, Tully, and Greyjoy), Earls (Manderly, Hightower, Bolton, Redwyne, Frey, etc), Viscounts (Blackwood, Bracken, Tarly, Umber, Karstark, etc), and Barons (too many to name).

 

Also the Blackwood and Bracken feud comes off poorly written as the Blackwoods are also shown in the right and superior while the Brackens are always in the wrong and awful.  Like how hasn't House Bracken been destroyed yet as they are almost always the loser.  Why not have something like the Blackwoods were strongest supporters of Maegar while the Brackens were some of the first supporters of Jaehaerys.  Why not have the Brute of Bracken support Dunk during his Trial of Seven?  Think how that could have been used to make Egg question some of his preceived notions about the houses that supported the Blackfyres.  Just anything where the Brackens aren't treated as idiotic immoral losers.

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10 hours ago, Ran said:

He should have been called Namor Martell. I told George this. Then he'd be Namor the Submariner.

I suspect that Ryan's aversion to changing names will not prevent him from adjusting the names of Grover's descendants  Elmo could become Elmer. Kermit and Oscar, I don't know.

Whats wrong with kermit or oscar, both are fine gaelic names

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19 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

Whats wrong with kermit or oscar, both are fine gaelic names

I have no real problem with them personally, but on a TV show I think people are going to not get over the fact that he decided to name the four Tullys after Sesame Street characters as a bit of an in-joke/easteregg. But here it's very obvious, whereas say Lharys, Kurleket, and Mohar (aka the Three Stooges, Larry, Curly, and Moe) were a lot less so.

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1 hour ago, Minsc said:

The fact that seems to be three different titles of nobility in Westeros: king, lord, and ser.  There should be be Dukes (Starks, Arryns, Lannisters), Marquess (Baratheon, Tyrell, Tully, and Greyjoy), Earls (Manderly, Hightower, Bolton, Redwyne, Frey, etc), Viscounts (Blackwood, Bracken, Tarly, Umber, Karstark, etc), and Barons (too many to name).

Marquess/Marchion is for marcher lords, Baratheon should be Dukes, drop Viscount as its a later invention, make Barons the third tier, use banneret or just lord for the ones below that

Also the Blackwood and Bracken feud comes off poorly written as the Blackwoods are also shown in the right and superior while the Brackens are always in the wrong and awful.  Like how hasn't House Bracken been destroyed yet as they are almost always the loser.  Why not have something like the Blackwoods were strongest supporters of Maegar while the Brackens were some of the first supporters of Jaehaerys.  Why not have the Brute of Bracken support Dunk during his Trial of Seven?  Think how that could have been used to make Egg question some of his preceived notions about the houses that supported the Blackfyres.  Just anything where the Brackens are treated as idiotic immoral losers.

agree

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5 minutes ago, Ran said:

I have no real problem with them personally, but on a TV show I think people are going to not get over the fact that he decided to name the four Tullys after Sesame Street characters as a bit of an in-joke/easteregg. But here it's very obvious, whereas say Lharys, Kurleket, and Mohar (aka the Three Stooges, Larry, Curly, and Moe) were a lot less so.

my problem with Grover is its a low german last name rather than a gaelic first name, change it and change Elmo to the most appropriate elmer and i think your okay

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1 hour ago, Minsc said:

Also the Blackwood and Bracken feud comes off poorly written as the Blackwoods are also shown in the right and superior while the Brackens are always in the wrong and awful.

I agree. It's not very interesting to read about because there's no nuance. I've started liking the Brackens more out of spite. Not only are the Blackwoods always morally right, they have been written as 'cooler' than the Brackens, worshipping the Old Gods, having a better sigil, cloak of raven feathers etc.

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1 hour ago, Alden Rothack said:

Marquess/Marchion is for marcher lords, Baratheon should be Dukes, drop Viscount as its a later invention, make Barons the third tier, use banneret or just lord for the ones below that

I think duke should be reserved to Houses that were Kings before the Conquest.  Marquess as the next highest rank in English peerage should be for the other Houses ruling the other kingdoms, excluding Dorne.  Tyrell, Tully, Baratheon, and Greyjoy need to be higher than Earl but not as high as duke which would be for former kings.  Viscount existed by the time of the War of the Roses.

59 minutes ago, Ran said:

I like Otho Bracken.

Isn't the only things known about Otho is that he killed a Blackwood in a Tourney and he refused Dunk's plea to fight for him?

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Before grade inflation took off, in the 14th century, there were two ranks of nobility.  Duke and count in France.  Earl and Baron in England.

Even kings were typically addressed as “sire”, “my lord”, “ lord king”, rather than anything more elaborate.

I think a second rank of nobility would make sense.

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11 minutes ago, Minsc said:

I think duke should be reserved to Houses that were Kings before the Conquest.  Marquess as the next highest rank in English peerage should be for the other Houses ruling the other kingdoms, excluding Dorne.  Tyrell, Tully, Baratheon, and Greyjoy need to be higher than Earl but not as high as duke which would be for former kings.  Viscount existed by the time of the War of the Roses

Baratheon being lower than the Arryns or the Lannisters makes no sense, Orys was his most trusted general and the kings half brother being a Duke happened many times, Viscount makes no se because they don't have Counts or even Counties.

If they did then Tyrells, Tullys and Greyjoys would be that to remind them that they are only above the Earls because the Crowns says so.

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18 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

Baratheon being lower than the Arryns or the Lannisters makes no sense, Orys was his most trusted general and the kings half brother being a Duke happened many times, Viscount makes no se because they don't have Counts or even Counties.

English Peerage has Viscounts while not having Count as a noble rank.

19 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

If they did then Tyrells, Tullys and Greyjoys would be that to remind them that they are only above the Earls because the Crowns says so.

Yes, those Houses (and Baratheon) only hold their position by the grace of the Crown.  None of those Houses were kings before the Conquest unlike Lannister, Arryn, and Stark.

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52 minutes ago, Minsc said:

 

Isn't the only things known about Otho is that he killed a Blackwood in a Tourney

Accidents happen, as Maekar well knows.

52 minutes ago, Minsc said:

and he refused Dunk's plea to fight for him?

Yes, but it's how he refused it. The Grey Lion pretended to be too busy examining his gloves, Lords Swann and Caron chortled, Lord Dondarrion ignored him, everyone else was silent, but Otho Bracken had the grace to answer his plea and explained why he wasn't going to take part. It was a blunt answer, but it was both honest and an answer, which is more than what most everyone else was willing to give.

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33 minutes ago, Minsc said:

English Peerage has Viscounts while not having Count as a noble rank.

There is a difference between using it and having it exist, many english peers were Counts thanks to their France possessions, there is no evidence the rank exists at all in Westeros and it won't unless Counts exist first which they won't because the origin comes latin french Companion or deputy companion of the Emperor.

33 minutes ago, Minsc said:

Yes, those Houses (and Baratheon) only hold their position by the grace of the Crown.  None of those Houses were kings before the Conquest unlike Lannister, Arryn, and Stark.

But Baratheon unlike the others is not only kin to the Royal House but captained the winning side, they should be ranked with his defeated enemies at worst not the stewards he put in their place. William the Conqueror made his brother the second most powerful man in england under similiar circumstances.

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1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

There are actually 4, with the Lords Paramount/Prince of Dorne but yes there are so few ranks especially considering that most of the regions have very powerful lords with huge swathes of land and power compared to their fellow vassals or even LPs of other realms: Manderlys and Dustins in the North, Yronwoods in Dorne, Hightowers in Reach and Royces in Vale are all very powerful, I suspect Hightowers, with all their vassals, would be more than a match to entire Iron Islands and likely even Dorne in terms of the manpower they have. They can spare five thousand men alone during the dance of the dragons not counting the sellswords and their vassals who fought against them while Dorne is barely able to send 10.000 away during Robert's Rebellion.

 

 

Longships aren't warships and they are used for many purposes besides raiding but I agree on the Ironfleet, but then again,  it's just 100 small war galleys and this is a feudal setting: Ironborn pose no real threat to anyone during times of peace and even in times of war they are barely more than a nuisance but for the king they can have two functions to keep, have an additional navy to call upon should they need and act as a deterrent against the other lords. If a downright retard like Balon rebels, he can easily be crushed and we've seen it done, while on the other hand should a lord on the western seaboard decide to rise up against the crown, the threat of ironborn would tie up soldiers and ships. 

Their sole major accomplishment, being able to take and hold Riverlands was due to the fact that Riverlords are a rowdy bunch that won't stand another among them rule over them and two of their major houses hate eachother's guts.

Yea, but an untrustworthy lord like Balon should not be allowed to keep a war fleet. That's betting a little too much on Balon's love for Theon, when the guy could simply have another son and rebel again one day, if the moment is right. I honestly think you underestimate the Ironborn. They did quite a lot of damage in the Wot5K's and still might do more.

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Just now, Corvo the Crow said:

Read my previous posts, they were only able to do those damages because of the war. Balon was easily crushed the first time around even in the aftermath of a huge war.

Only because Balon choose a poor time to rebel. For all the crap Doran Martell gets, he is right about one thing; the timing of a rebellion is very important.

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