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Instances of Poor World Building


Corvo the Crow

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26 minutes ago, Ran said:

He only "took" for the crownlands the portions of those regions which had only ever had nominal fealty to Argilac or Harren the Black. Lands that were much more firmly under the sway of their traditional overlords were left for the lords paramount. Aegon cared about continuity of rule more than he cared about making gifts to Orys or worrying about some region rebelling against him.

But the said overlords of all three of the regions have been replaced with new ones that would still be much grateful even with reduced lands and even if we take the nominal fealty approach, Oldtown too could be considered having nominal fealty from what we've seen so far. Oldtown is it's own subkingdom that is likely on par with Dorne in terms of strength, didn't commit to field of fire, didn't send men with Renly (Catelyn sees no Hightower banners, the most powerful vassal in the Reach should've been noticed) They were a part of Dance of the Dragons but I highly doubt if Alicent wasn't a Hightower that they'd have joined. Aegon could've easily made up an excuse and said "as you have not taken arms against me, you will be my direct vassal".

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8 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

But the said overlords of all three of the regions have been replaced

Even so, the point is that the houses that became part of the new crownlands probably had been semi-independent from any nominal suzerain for generations. They had no old, pre-existing loyalties. So it made sense to say that those were the houses that were now ruled directly by the Targaryens, not least because it gave them something of a prestige benefit -- they were direct vassals of the Lord of the Seven Kingdoms. Consider the way the Crackclaw Point houses were won over by Visenya, and the pride they still take in having been loyal dragon men.

Aegon didn't want to rock any boats, hence the whole thing about almost all the regional laws being left on the books. Same thing with not making undue changes to the structure of the Seven Kingdoms much beyond what was necessary.

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Make everything south of Highgarden part of the Crown Marches and the Tyrells still have the biggest kingdom by population though Dorne and the North would both have more land. its particularly wierd that they kept it that way through the Dance and Roberts Rebellion even though other houses did lose rank and lands.

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7 minutes ago, Ran said:

Even so, the point is that the houses that became part of the new crownlands probably had been semi-independent from any nominal suzerain for generations. They had no old, pre-existing loyalties. So it made sense to say that those were the houses that were now ruled directly by the Targaryens, not least because it gave them something of a prestige benefit -- they were direct vassals of the Lord of the Seven Kingdoms. Consider the way the Crackclaw Point houses were won over by Visenya, and the pride they still take in having been loyal dragon men.

Aegon didn't want to rock any boats, hence the whole thing about almost all the regional laws being left on the books. Same thing with not making undue changes to the structure of the Seven Kingdoms much beyond what was necessary.

Except the Crackclaw Point houses are the exception, Duskendale was part of the Riverlands for centuries

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7 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

Make everything south of Highgarden part of the Crown Marches and the Tyrells still have the biggest kingdom by population though Dorne and the North would both have more land. its particularly wierd that they kept it that way through the Dance and Roberts Rebellion even though other houses did lose rank and lands.

The Tyrells didn't take sides in the Dance, and no one could really blame them. Houses that lost lands in Robert's Rebellion were predominantly very strong loyalists who had members of the family still in defiance of Robert (the Darrys) or had been Baratheon vassals who chose the crown over their overlord  (Connington). No one can say the Tyrells were strong loyalists, and no one took anything from Dorne either despite supporting Aerys. Reprisals was basically something that happened to minor houses, the great houses were (no doubt at Jon Arryn's and Ned's advice) treated with some care.

3 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

Except the Crackclaw Point houses are the exception, Duskendale was part of the Riverlands for centuries

They history of the region around the mouth of the Blackwater was that they were the marches variously of the stormlands and the riverlands under various kings, going back and forth. They had no strong riverlands identity, being far from the Trident and in origin having been a petty kingdom all their own. The Darklyns were ripe to accept a new order compared to, say, the Blackwoods and Brackens who were very firmly embedded in the heart of the riverlands.

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3 minutes ago, Ran said:

The Tyrells didn't take sides in the Dance, and no one could really blame them. Houses that lost lands in Robert's Rebellion were predominantly very strong loyalists who had members of the family still in defiance of Robert (the Darrys) or had been Baratheon vassals who chose the crown over their overlord  (Connington). No one can say the Tyrells were strong loyalists, and no one took anything from Dorne either despite supporting Aerys. Reprisals was basically something that happened to minor houses, the great houses were (no doubt at Jon Arryn's and Ned's advice) treated with some care.

Dorne had lost Lewyn, Elia and ten thousand men they could scarce afford plus Dorne has no lands the crown would want

the Tyrells did nothing to show their loyalty and they had already proved they couldn't or wouldn't stop their vassals from going to war with the crown such as in the dance, having a kingdom twice as strong as the others and disloyal is a recipe for disaster and even Robert should have known that given that the only battle they really fought in the Rbellion was the one he lost.

3 minutes ago, Ran said:

They history of the region around the mouth of the Blackwater was that they were the marches variously of the stormlands and the riverlands under various kings, going back and forth. They had no strong riverlands identity, being far from the Trident and in origin having been a petty kingdom all their own. The Darklyns were ripe to accept a new order compared to, say, the Blackwoods and Brackens who were very firmly embedded in the heart of the riverlands.

Which is why the Marches and the Southern Reach are the place tpo add not the rest of the Riverlands.

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24 minutes ago, Ran said:

Even so, the point is that the houses that became part of the new crownlands probably had been semi-independent from any nominal suzerain for generations

But that applies to Hightowers as well. Of the four major events, the continent wide wars(Conquest, Dance of Dragons, RR and Wot5K) that we've witnessed Hightowers clearly sit out two of them(Conquest and Wot5K), and for a third( RR), while we don't see anything clear of them sitting it out, we don't see their contribution either, I don't remember anyone mentioning them except Danaerys, at the very least Stannis would've mentioned them but no.  The fourth, the only one we know for sure that they have participated in is dance of the dragons and in that one the Queen was a Hightower, and not just any Hightower from a distant branch but the cousin of the lord at the time. And unlike all these small houses, Hightowers are a major power in their own right.

16 minutes ago, Ran said:

Houses that lost lands in Robert's Rebellion were predominantly very strong loyalists who had members of the family still in defiance of Robert (the Darrys) or had been Baratheon vassals who chose the crown over their overlord  (Connington).

Now that you've mentioned it, we see SL and RL houses getting punished through losing lands and title but can't remember anything about Vale houses. Taking Gulltown from Graftons and granting them to Shetts or Gulltown Arryns would've been the way to go considering all the other houses getting punished but no, they go unscathed.

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On 11/3/2022 at 1:53 AM, DMC said:

It seems very odd to me to emphasize the lack of diversity in languages in asserting such a "failure."  It's obviously expedient - for the author and the reader.  If linguistics is your jam, fair enough, but otherwise plodding through such in-universe difficulties does not enhance a narrative's "worldbuilding" in the slightest.  Moreover, having a "common tongue" across an entire continent isn't very realistic even in modern times.  It's more like an aspect of the fantasy you just have to accept as the rules of the game and suspend your disbelief - like the way seasons work.

While I agree there's convenience in a common tongue, what logic is there that the only people who have managed to repel the Andals, the Northmen, speak common tongue when Orphans of the Greenblood who live under Andal rule and literally next to a big settlement of Andals have managed to kept their tongue for more than a thousand years? The world doesn't even have consistency in it's own logic. If anything, it should've been the reverse that the Orphans constantly exposed to Andals should've lost their tongue while the isolated Northerners have kept theirs. I won't even mention the amount of wildlings that are bilingual when there should've been just a handful through contact to watch (they do trade after all) or smugglers and the vast majority would be speaking Old Tongue

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39 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

But that applies to Hightowers as well. Of the four major events, the continent wide wars(Conquest, Dance of Dragons, RR and Wot5K) that we've witnessed Hightowers clearly sit out two of them(Conquest and Wot5K), and for a third( RR), while we don't see anything clear of them sitting it out, we don't see their contribution either, I don't remember anyone mentioning them except Danaerys, at the very least Stannis would've mentioned them but no.  The fourth, the only one we know for sure that they have participated in is dance of the dragons and in that one the Queen was a Hightower, and not just any Hightower from a distant branch but the cousin of the lord at the time. And unlike all these small houses, Hightowers are a major power in their own right.

Now that you've mentioned it, we see SL and RL houses getting punished through losing lands and title but can't remember anything about Vale houses. Taking Gulltown from Graftons and granting them to Shetts or Gulltown Arryns would've been the way to go considering all the other houses getting punished but no, they go unscathed.

There are probably quite a lot of wholly or partially dispossessed landowners, who would fight for either Aegon or Dany, in order to recover what was theirs.

Robert was not wrong in expecting widespread revolt if Viserys turned up with an army.

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2 hours ago, Alden Rothack said:

Dorne had lost Lewyn, Elia and ten thousand men they could scarce afford plus Dorne has no lands the crown would want

the Tyrells did nothing to show their loyalty and they had already proved they couldn't or wouldn't stop their vassals from going to war with the crown such as in the dance, having a kingdom twice as strong as the others and disloyal is a recipe for disaster and even Robert should have known that given that the only battle they really fought in the Rbellion was the one he lost.

The war had just ended and the rebels weren't booming with loyalists, hell Viserys still was at Dragonstone. Calm the waters is imperative, starting a freshly new war wiith Dorne and the Tyrells is beyond stupid and probably suicidal, especially after the Tyrells bent the knee.

 

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Robert was not wrong in expecting widespread revolt if Viserys turned up with an army.

He was, it's not like Targ sentiment was dead by Renly and Robert's coalition had done much and more to minimize its force, only somethiing astonishing and unexpected like Dany birthing dragons or Robert's old guard warring each other and destroying the Baratheon regime could give a window to any Targaryen pretender.

 

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

didn't send men with Renly (Catelyn sees no Hightower banners, the most powerful vassal in the Reach should've been noticed)

That's a non argument.

 

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Except Robert didn't do anything but prevent an immediate return to war, the Houses that aren't loyal then still weren't later (Lannister, Martel, Tyrell and Greyjoy) and Tywin and Balons respective egomania had as much to do with why they didn't combine forces as anything Robert did, meanwhile he lets the Tyrells who are either Targ loyalists or Tyrell loyalists have any army the size of the entire rebel coilition by themselves.

the Hightowers are Targ loyalists and the Tyrells have proved them can't or won't rein them in, just for that the southern reach should be under the Stormlands/Crownlands

the crown shouldn't the weakest of the factions, thats make no sense

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59 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

Except Robert didn't do anything but prevent an immediate return to war, the Houses that aren't loyal then still weren't later (Lannister, Martel, Tyrell and Greyjoy) and Tywin and Balons respective egomania had as much to do with why they didn't combine forces as anything Robert did,

Tywin married his daughter to Robert and later helped Robert stamp out Balon.

 

1 hour ago, Alden Rothack said:

meanwhile he lets the Tyrells who are either Targ loyalists or Tyrell loyalists have any army the size of the entire rebel coilition by themselves.

Count again.

 

1 hour ago, Alden Rothack said:

the Hightowers are Targ loyalists and the Tyrells have proved them can't or won't rein them in, just for that the southern reach should be under the Stormlands/Crownlands

This does not appear in the books as of yet.

 

1 hour ago, Alden Rothack said:

the crown shouldn't the weakest of the factions, thats make no sense

Stark, Arryn, Baratheon, Tully, Lannister.

This sounds like incredibly powerful faction.

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4 minutes ago, frenin said:

Stark, Arryn, Baratheon, Tully, Lannister.

This sounds like incredibly powerful faction.

Except the Starks weren't in at the same time as the Lannisters

Robert didn't have them until after the Trident where the rebels had less than 40,000 men whereas the Tyrells had 60,000 or more

 

 

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2 hours ago, frenin said:

That's a non argument.

 

Mmhmm that's why we see no Hightowers, see no Hightower banners and not even a mention of them. Sure, Renly mentions them once among other lords that support him but these other lords we see signs of and Renly also says Dorne will support him, so there you have it. 

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9 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Mmhmm that's why we see no Hightowers, see no Hightower banners and not even a mention of them. Sure, Renly mentions them once among other lords that support him but these other lords we see signs of and Renly also says Dorne will support him, so there you have it. 

To be fair there's a difference between Renly saying he already has the Hightowers supporting him and saying Doran Martell will soon be joining him.

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35 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Mmhmm that's why we see no Hightowers, see no Hightower banners and not even a mention of them. Sure, Renly mentions them once among other lords that support him but these other lords we see signs of and Renly also says Dorne will support him, so there you have it. 

Renly says the Hightowers support him now vs him saying the Dornish will surely (but are not currently) support him. Again a non argument.

 

1 hour ago, Alden Rothack said:

Except the Starks weren't in at the same time as the Lannisters

Robert didn't have them until after the Trident where the rebels had less than 40,000 men whereas the Tyrells had 60,000 or more

He has them later on, once he is King. Those are the factions that sustain and later on destroy his regime.

I honestly don't know what are you talking about.

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1 hour ago, frenin said:

Renly says the Hightowers support him now vs him saying the Dornish will surely (but are not currently) support him. Again a non argument.

Answer this question please, where are these Hightowers that support Renly? They are not with Renly, they are not with Mace, where are they?

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Coming up with explanation as to why Aegon the Conqueror made weirdo decisions doesn't better the world-building there.

The Reach was the most powerful independent kingdom in Westeros.

Giving it to a Reach lord - even a Reach lord who was subsequently very indebted to Aegon - was a mistake. Keeping it intact the way it was, too, one could imagine. It is insane that they never rebelled against the Targaryens, never tried to avenge the loss of their nobility on the Field of Fire - which was a monstrous bloodletting of the nobility of the Reach.

That Aegon's power over the Reach doesn't reach (pun intended) that far can be drawn, for instance, from Lord Theo Tyrell's refusal to support Aegon's Dornish War in the wake of the loss of the Reach army his own father commanded.

Aegon either dared not - or could not - force the Reach to raise another army to invade and subdue the Dornish ... despite the fact that the Reach's military capability would have been far from spent. They could have raised 2-3 armies of a similar size before they were truly in trouble.

This clearly may have been different if the Lord Paramount of the Reach would have been a man with closer ties to the Targaryens - some guy with Valyrian roots from Dragonstone or Driftmark.

The idea that the former Crownlands were 'semi-independent' is also not really true. The Stormlanders there were beholden to the Durrandons, and the Riverlanders to Harren the Black. The latter didn't really like that yoke that much, and the former seem to have had family and marriage ties to Dragonstone which caused them to side with Aegon against Argilac (Aethan Velaryon was likely already married to Alarra Massey when Conquest began).

22 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Answer this question please, where are these Hightowers that support Renly? They are not with Renly, they are not with Mace, where are they?

There is some mentioning of the Hightower banners in Renly's camp, I think, and there clearly are some of the lords and knights there who later turned out to be sworn to Oldtown rather than Highgarden.

But it seems that those are merely tokens - Lord Leyton didn't marshal his actual forces, nor did he or any of his sons or close relations march with Renly.

In my opinion, the Tyrells themselves pursued a somewhat similar policy. They did declare for Renly, Mace is his Hand, but he himself, his heir and second son, and all the uncles and cousins that we know of weren't really there. Only Loras and Margaery ... which made it much easier for them to distance themselves from Renly should he fail and pursue other options. Which they then did.

A Mace Tyrell being captured at the head of a rebel army may have been executed or attainted. A Mace Tyrell merely declaring for a pretender but sitting out the war back home with a pretty powerful reserve might not be punished at all.

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1 hour ago, frenin said:

He has them later on, once he is King. Those are the factions that sustain and later on destroy his regime.

I honestly don't know what are you talking about.

He doesn't though, except for the brief period of the Greyjoy Rebellion where all six kingdoms fought the Greyjoys

the Starks and Tullys were in during the war and the Lannisters afterwards

Robert small council has three men from the Stormlands and two from the Vale for virtually his entire reign and his kingsguard lacks members from his Tully or Stark allies as well

the point is that Robert didn't truly have all five at once at any point except during the Greyjoy rebellion

the Tyrells had more men than Robert both during and after the Rebellion

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31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Coming up with explanation as to why Aegon the Conqueror made weirdo decisions doesn't better the world-building there.

The Reach was the most powerful independent kingdom in Westeros.

Giving it to a Reach lord - even a Reach lord who was subsequently very indebted to Aegon - was a mistake. Keeping it intact the way it was, too, one could imagine. It is insane that they never rebelled against the Targaryens, never tried to avenge the loss of their nobility on the Field of Fire - which was a monstrous bloodletting of the nobility of the Reach.

That Aegon's power over the Reach doesn't reach (pun intended) that far can be drawn, for instance, from Lord Theo Tyrell's refusal to support Aegon's Dornish War in the wake of the loss of the Reach army his own father commanded.

Aegon either dared not - or could not - force the Reach to raise another army to invade and subdue the Dornish ... despite the fact that the Reach's military capability would have been far from spent. They could have raised 2-3 armies of a similar size before they were truly in trouble.

This clearly may have been different if the Lord Paramount of the Reach would have been a man with closer ties to the Targaryens - some guy with Valyrian roots from Dragonstone or Driftmark.

The idea that the former Crownlands were 'semi-independent' is also not really true. The Stormlanders there were beholden to the Durrandons, and the Riverlanders to Harren the Black. The latter didn't really like that yoke that much, and the former seem to have had family and marriage ties to Dragonstone which caused them to side with Aegon against Argilac (Aethan Velaryon was likely already married to Alarra Massey when Conquest began).

There is some mentioning of the Hightower banners in Renly's camp, I think, and there clearly are some of the lords and knights there who later turned out to be sworn to Oldtown rather than Highgarden.

But it seems that those are merely tokens - Lord Leyton didn't marshal his actual forces, nor did he or any of his sons or close relations march with Renly.

In my opinion, the Tyrells themselves pursued a somewhat similar policy. They did declare for Renly, Mace is his Hand, but he himself, his heir and second son, and all the uncles and cousins that we know of weren't really there. Only Loras and Margaery ... which made it much easier for them to distance themselves from Renly should he fail and pursue other options. Which they then did.

A Mace Tyrell being captured at the head of a rebel army may have been executed or attainted. A Mace Tyrell merely declaring for a pretender but sitting out the war back home with a pretty powerful reserve might not be punished at all.

Loras being there after all proves nothing, Robar Royce was also there and nobody suggests that the Vale fought for Renly

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