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Instances of Poor World Building


Corvo the Crow

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2 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

Loras being there after all proves nothing, Robar Royce was also there and nobody suggests that the Vale fought for Renly

Well, Loras was Renly's secret lover, the brother of Renly's queen, and the Lord Commander of Renly's Rainbow Guard.

He wasn't there by accident. And there were many Tyrell levies with him, etc.

But not the core members of the family. Loras was only the third son of the Lord of Highgarden, so Mace could have doubled back on the whole thing if the tide had turned against them.

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4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is some mentioning of the Hightower banners in Renly's camp, I think, and there clearly are some of the lords and knights there who later turned out to be sworn to Oldtown rather than Highgarden

No there isn't. Renly mentions their name when listing this arrows and that lances will make me king speech but we saw no Hightower banners(and being the most powerful, they should've been the most noticable)  and no Hightower family member. Even in Kl when everyone's getting rewards, Hightowers are mentioned to be not present.  Their vassals being there doesn't mean anything either since some of the same vassals were against them in dance of the dragon with armies of their own, the principal vassals of Hightowers are likely equivelant in power to the average lord from other regions. 

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27 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

No there isn't. Renly mentions their name when listing this arrows and that lances will make me king speech but we saw no Hightower banners(and being the most powerful, they should've been the most noticable)  and no Hightower family member. Even in Kl when everyone's getting rewards, Hightowers are mentioned to be not present.  Their vassals being there doesn't mean anything either since some of the same vassals were against them in dance of the dragon with armies of their own, the principal vassals of Hightowers are likely equivelant in power to the average lord from other regions. 

True enough, I got that confused there with the claim that there were more Tyrells there than Loras and Margaery since Catelyn allegedly sees their banners.

Three bannermen of House Hightower turned Black during the Dance, but only two actually took up arms against them. Which means that they had lost access to about half their sworn strength or so. The Dance scenario kind of implies that they still had significant strength on their own, but whether that's because they could rely on loyal bannerman or on men sworn directly to Oldtown (likely both) we don't really know. The fact that we don't hear anything about Cuys or Bulwers being in the Hightower army kind of implies they didn't really get involved.

The fact that Beesburys, Cuys, and Mullendores are with Renly is not insignificant. They might just be tokens, but we don't know how strongly they were committed. The fact that Ser Emmon Cuy was chosen for the Rainbow Guard could indicate that he brought a considerable number of men-at-arms with him.

The really important thing there is that the Reach is even more powerful than it appears in ACoK. If Renly has about 80,000-100,000 men in total (i.e. with the 10,000 men of the reserve back at Highgarden are counted, too) and the Hightowers didn't send any men and their bannermen only small tolken forces ... then there is a potential of tens of thousands of untapped men in the Hightower lands at this point. And most likely another ten thousand or more on the Arbor since the Redwynes also didn't participate in the fighting.

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10 hours ago, Alden Rothack said:

Except the Starks weren't in at the same time as the Lannisters

Robert didn't have them until after the Trident where the rebels had less than 40,000 men whereas the Tyrells had 60,000 or more

There's a question of "men in the field" and "manpower available" which are different things. Keeping an army in the field is extremely expensive and the larger an army is, the slower it will move. Really one of the least realistic things in the series is that Renly was able to maintain his enormous army so far from the coast for so long.

Robert's campaign is all about moving quickly and trying to defeat the loyalist armies in detail. Massing the largest force he can is probably less important to him than being able to retain the initiative, so he will care more about troop quality than he will about fetching every last peasant. Worth noting too that Robert's army probably never comprised the full strength of any of the four kingdoms under his command: there were Targ loyalists in the southern three who didn't fight (and who in some cases had to be defeated separately) and the North almost certainly didn't manage to mobilise its full strength before the end of the war. (Note too that the Freys - the largest vassal of the Riverlands - didn't fight at the Trident either as they were late).

In terms of a raw numbers game, I have to wonder about the Riverlands. It is generally considered one of the weaker kingdoms but I wonder if that is a function of geography rather than manpower, as even if it's allied to the North and the Vale (as for instance in Robert's Rebellion) it still has borders to guard on three sides with the Westerlands, Crownlands and Reach, which is going to diminish the size of its available field army*. The Reach meanwhile was in both RR and to a lesser extent in WoTK able to focus its full strength on a single front. And in WoTK the main Riverlands army is defeated in detail before the North is able to mobilise (and the Freys once again are not involved).

We probably never see the Riverlands punching at its full "on paper" weight. It's not going to have as many troops as the Reach, but it's not a small kingdom and its lands are fertile, so it should have a large population to draw on.

*The same factor will also affect the Stormlands, which is in Robert's Rebellion almost completely hemmed in by hostile forces. Robert will have to have left a significant number of troops behind to garrison castles against the Reach incursion: he may also have suffered significant casualties at Ashford.

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Good topic, Corvo the Crow. For myself, I saw the series as mainly fantasy, so I never expected it to adhere too closely to medieval real-world conventions. I did notice the languages, of course, but was able to sweep that one away as author expediency, no need to dwell. For me, the world-building is superior in its depth of textural story, legend, myth. These are what I enjoy most about it along with complex characters.
 

That said, I do think world-building in fantasy has its own types of rules, and messing around with them is jarring at minimum. It also leads to reader anxiety that the author won’t follow through on story threads because they’re being made up on the fly. 
 

I can’t remember a good fantasy novel where distances were established to be so vast, but some people seem to traverse them so much quicker than others, arriving someplace as if by magic. No, I can’t remember details or distances now, but I remember being constantly jarred while reading. 
 

I also think points about the economies of various cities/locations are well-taken, because I was also jarred by Slaver Bay, Dothraki, Ironborn, even Northern (taking into account Long Nights) societies where the places didn’t seem like they could support the populace. 

And what about those populations!  Honestly they’ve been so devastated by war, disease, etc., I keep wondering if anyone will be left by the time winter arrives. 

But those are just numbers - math that jars. 

For me, I don’t like it when the magic in fantasy doesn’t follow logic. There are rules and limitations.  Some fantasy doesn’t do this, but you’re set up for that if so at the beginning. I think ASOIAF set up magic up as logical from the beginning, another physical force like gravity, but it keeps making exceptions, like Faceless Men, for instance. Maybe this will all come out in the wash. I thought so for the first books. But I’m not sure anymore that there will be an overall explanation that will make sense of what seem unique exceptions. 

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8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

True enough, I got that confused there with the claim that there were more Tyrells there than Loras and Margaery since Catelyn allegedly sees their banners.

Three bannermen of House Hightower turned Black during the Dance, but only two actually took up arms against them. Which means that they had lost access to about half their sworn strength or so. The Dance scenario kind of implies that they still had significant strength on their own, but whether that's because they could rely on loyal bannerman or on men sworn directly to Oldtown (likely both) we don't really know. The fact that we don't hear anything about Cuys or Bulwers being in the Hightower army kind of implies they didn't really get involved.

The fact that Beesburys, Cuys, and Mullendores are with Renly is not insignificant. They might just be tokens, but we don't know how strongly they were committed. The fact that Ser Emmon Cuy was chosen for the Rainbow Guard could indicate that he brought a considerable number of men-at-arms with him.

The really important thing there is that the Reach is even more powerful than it appears in ACoK. If Renly has about 80,000-100,000 men in total (i.e. with the 10,000 men of the reserve back at Highgarden are counted, too) and the Hightowers didn't send any men and their bannermen only small tolken forces ... then there is a potential of tens of thousands of untapped men in the Hightower lands at this point. And most likely another ten thousand or more on the Arbor since the Redwynes also didn't participate in the fighting.

When the Ironborn attack, Loras tells that Willas and Garlan can muster 10.000 men in forthnight and twice that in a moon's turn but I think this was after half the Tyrell army was returned home and disbanded and I also doubt it includes Hightowers

While on the subject, I'm not sure if there are any "Hightower lands" beyond the walls of Oldtown. The entire area under control of Hightowers is huge but since we have seen them go to war only once and with their vassals being powerful lords in their own right, they may not be keeping lands of their own but have given them all to vassals. Sure, there will be smaller lords, and landed knights as well but I don't think they keep any land directly under control such as the holdfast with no lord we see in the first Bran chapter that the deserter is killed.

As for the Dance, I think the force we've seen departing Hightower was Oldtown forces only sinceif I recall the only vassal we get a mention of is Roxton, who was probably from Oldtown:  Ravenry island belonged to a pirate lord who robbed ships Roxton has as his sigil a golden chain on a blue field and probably Rookstone -> Roxton.

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10 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

When the Ironborn attack, Loras tells that Willas and Garlan can muster 10.000 men in forthnight and twice that in a moon's turn but I think this was after half the Tyrell army was returned home and disbanded and I also doubt it includes Hightowers

I think we know it doesn't since Lord Leyton is raising his own troops in AFfC.

10 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

While on the subject, I'm not sure if there are any "Hightower lands" beyond the walls of Oldtown. The entire area under control of Hightowers is huge but since we have seen them go to war only once and with their vassals being powerful lords in their own right, they may not be keeping lands of their own but have given them all to vassals. Sure, there will be smaller lords, and landed knights as well but I don't think they keep any land directly under control such as the holdfast with no lord we see in the first Bran chapter that the deserter is killed.

By lands of their own I meant lands under the control of their own petty lords and landed knights who are not sworn to Honeyholt or Uplands, etc. Oldtown is a large city and it is not that likely that they don't control the peasant in the immediate vicinity to ensure that the city is always well provided with food.

10 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

As for the Dance, I think the force we've seen departing Hightower was Oldtown forces only sinceif I recall the only vassal we get a mention of is Roxton, who was probably from Oldtown:  Ravenry island belonged to a pirate lord who robbed ships Roxton has as his sigil a golden chain on a blue field and probably Rookstone -> Roxton.

Since he is no lord, the Roxtons could be landed knight sworn to Oldtown. Since he has the Valyrian steel sword he is not likely to have been a younger son or cousin who took service with the Hightowers.

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19 hours ago, Adelstein said:

There's a question of "men in the field" and "manpower available" which are different things. Keeping an army in the field is extremely expensive and the larger an army is, the slower it will move. Really one of the least realistic things in the series is that Renly was able to maintain his enormous army so far from the coast for so long.

Robert's campaign is all about moving quickly and trying to defeat the loyalist armies in detail. Massing the largest force he can is probably less important to him than being able to retain the initiative, so he will care more about troop quality than he will about fetching every last peasant. Worth noting too that Robert's army probably never comprised the full strength of any of the four kingdoms under his command: there were Targ loyalists in the southern three who didn't fight (and who in some cases had to be defeated separately) and the North almost certainly didn't manage to mobilise its full strength before the end of the war. (Note too that the Freys - the largest vassal of the Riverlands - didn't fight at the Trident either as they were late).

In terms of a raw numbers game, I have to wonder about the Riverlands. It is generally considered one of the weaker kingdoms but I wonder if that is a function of geography rather than manpower, as even if it's allied to the North and the Vale (as for instance in Robert's Rebellion) it still has borders to guard on three sides with the Westerlands, Crownlands and Reach, which is going to diminish the size of its available field army*. The Reach meanwhile was in both RR and to a lesser extent in WoTK able to focus its full strength on a single front. And in WoTK the main Riverlands army is defeated in detail before the North is able to mobilise (and the Freys once again are not involved).

We probably never see the Riverlands punching at its full "on paper" weight. It's not going to have as many troops as the Reach, but it's not a small kingdom and its lands are fertile, so it should have a large population to draw on.

*The same factor will also affect the Stormlands, which is in Robert's Rebellion almost completely hemmed in by hostile forces. Robert will have to have left a significant number of troops behind to garrison castles against the Reach incursion: he may also have suffered significant casualties at Ashford.

True, the full strength of the Four might be greater than the reach alone, though the fact that its not clear proves that the reach is far stronger than they should be ben allowed to remain.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

By lands of their own I meant lands under the control of their own petty lords and landed knights who are not sworn to Honeyholt or Uplands, etc. Oldtown is a large city and it is not that likely that they don't control the peasant in the immediate vicinity to ensure that the city is always well provided with food.

Yes, that is likely but not the direct control Starks have. While on the subject of towns and cities, many lords who own towns seem to control no lands out of the town/city. Dustins have Stouts at the very gates of Barrowlands, Hollards are quite close to Darklyns in Duskendale and such.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Since he is no lord, the Roxtons could be landed knight sworn to Oldtown. Since he has the Valyrian steel sword he is not likely to have been a younger son or cousin who took service with the Hightowers.

He could be an heir to an old lord who can't fight himself as well. But either way, do Shetts of Gulltown, , Gulltown Arryns, many Cadets of Lannisport Lannisters,  Darklyn cadets own lands of their own, especially outside the town/city walls?

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8 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Yes, that is likely but not the direct control Starks have. While on the subject of towns and cities, many lords who own towns seem to control no lands out of the town/city. Dustins have Stouts at the very gates of Barrowlands, Hollards are quite close to Darklyns in Duskendale and such.

Not sure the Starks have more control there. Their lands are just more empty, which means there would also be some keeps and towers that have been abandoned - like the village Stannis is camping at right now.

And just because some small knights/petty lords live on close to your castle, city, town doesn't mean they control vast lands in their own right.

The whole Tully thing in FaB kind of confirms that the lands directly controlled by the great houses are usually the largest lands in the particular region. The Tullys are unique in the sense that this isn't the case with them ... but they also own large lands along the Trident.

With some of the big seats one imagines that they control a lot of land around their castle - Highgarden, say, or the Gates of the Moon/the Eyrie - but others would have large straps throughout their former kingdom. The Starks could have lands in reaches of the North that are far away from Winterfell which they control directly without having another feudal tier between them (that is the case for the mountains the clansmen control).

8 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

He could be an heir to an old lord who can't fight himself as well. But either way, do Shetts of Gulltown, , Gulltown Arryns, many Cadets of Lannisport Lannisters,  Darklyn cadets own lands of their own, especially outside the town/city walls?

One imagines that the Shetts own some land considering their long history, but the Gulltown Arrnys are merchants. The Darklyn kin would own property that generates revenues for them, but they wouldn't be feudal landowners one imagines.

The Lannisters of Lannisport are the guys who founded Lannisport, so they must own much of the city as such, and much of the lands outside the city which was given to them by their cousins of Casterly Rock when they first founded the place that would eventually grow into Lannisport.

Casterly Rock's immediate property would then extend in another direction.

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10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Not sure the Starks have more control there. Their lands are just more empty, which means there would also be some keeps and towers that have been abandoned - like the village Stannis is camping at right now.

True enough, but this one was apparently in use, just without lord or master, since the deserter was brought there and not winterfell which was close. Abandond keeps/towers and villages are also not the same thing that village was probably empty due to winter whereas Starks seem to hold empty keeps with land that is inhabited, Ned expected Rickon and Bran to be bannermen of Robb, which is something we don’t see often. Garlan getting the Brightwater keep and all it’s lands was a huge thing and very rare. Sure, any Backwater keep Bran and Rickon is going to take is in no means comparable to what Garlan gets but if not for the war he wouldn’t be getting anything, surely after a couple of generations, being landed with a small keep is better than being descended from an unlanded son, even if you were the second son to Highgarden.

 

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:
10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And just because some small knights/petty lords live on close to your castle, city, town doesn't mean they control vast lands in their own right.

No, of course  not, there’d be many dotting the land with small tracts of land to them but in the case of a regular lord it is better to own the land closest to you directly rather than through an intermediary to exert more control and get more out of them and not directly own the lands that are far and give them to a landed knight or lord to be more managable. But for town owners you already have much to deal with, having smaller lords to deal with the land would perhaps be better. For the same amount of population, having just a single town is far better than owning dozens or hundreds of villages anyway. You have all your population in one focused area so they are much more defendable, you'd have townsguard so more professionals to fight, towns are centers of wealth so more money for you, townsfolk would be more wealthy as well so they'd have better equipment than your peasant levies and would have some consistent training as part of a town militia. Once you inevitably go to war, it'd be much easier to raise them since they are all concentrated in one area and you could raise more of them as well and with better training and equipment.

 

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The whole Tully thing in FaB kind of confirms that the lands directly controlled by the great houses are usually the largest lands in the particular region. The Tullys are unique in the sense that this isn't the case with them ... but they also own large lands along the Trident.

With some of the big seats one imagines that they control a lot of land around their castle - Highgarden, say, or the Gates of the Moon/the Eyrie - but others would have large straps throughout their former kingdom. The Starks could have lands in reaches of the North that are far away from Winterfell which they control directly without having another feudal tier between them (that is the case for the mountains the clansmen control).

Yes, we also see this in the series with Harrenhal being mentioned to have tracts I think.

 

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

One imagines that the Shetts own some land considering their long history, but the Gulltown Arrnys are merchants. The Darklyn kin would own property that generates revenues for them, but they wouldn't be feudal landowners one imagines.

The Lannisters of Lannisport are the guys who founded Lannisport, so they must own much of the city as such, and much of the lands outside the city which was given to them by their cousins of Casterly Rock when they first founded the place that would eventually grow into Lannisport.

Casterly Rock's immediate property would then extend in another direction.

There are two branches of Shetts we know of and one is a landed knight, Gull Tower branch, while the other lives in Gull town with no keeps etc mentioned. 
 

by cadets I meant cadets of Lannisport Lannisters, Lannets, Lantells etc I don’t see them owing much, if any land and Lannisterport Lannisters probably don’t own anything beyond the walls either. Remember that 1 mile of land between Casterly Rock and Lannisport is quite empty when Tyrion gets Tysha, it is so empty they offer Barristan land there.

With other lords closeby to the east and north, Casterly Rock’s strength has to come from somewhere and with the sea to the west, only direction left is south.

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8 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

True enough, but this one was apparently in use, just without lord or master, since the deserter was brought there and not winterfell which was close. Abandond keeps/towers and villages are also not the same thing that village was probably empty due to winter whereas Starks seem to hold empty keeps with land that is inhabited, Ned expected Rickon and Bran to be bannermen of Robb, which is something we don’t see often. Garlan getting the Brightwater keep and all it’s lands was a huge thing and very rare. Sure, any Backwater keep Bran and Rickon is going to take is in no means comparable to what Garlan gets but if not for the war he wouldn’t be getting anything, surely after a couple of generations, being landed with a small keep is better than being descended from an unlanded son, even if you were the second son to Highgarden.

 

No, of course  not, there’d be many dotting the land with small tracts of land to them but in the case of a regular lord it is better to own the land closest to you directly rather than through an intermediary to exert more control and get more out of them and not directly own the lands that are far and give them to a landed knight or lord to be more managable. But for town owners you already have much to deal with, having smaller lords to deal with the land would perhaps be better.

 

Yes, we also see this in the series with Harrenhal being mentioned to have tracts I think.

 

There are two branches of Shetts we know of and one is a landed knight, Gull Tower branch, while the other lives in Gull town with no keeps etc mentioned. 
 

by cadets I meant cadets of Lannisport Lannisters, Lannets, Lantells etc I don’t see them owing much, if any land and Lannisterport Lannisters probably don’t own anything beyond the walls either. Remember that 1 mile of land between Casterly Rock and Lannisport is quite empty when Tyrion gets Tysha, it is so empty they offer Barristan land there.

With other lords closeby to the east and north, Casterly Rock’s strength has to come from somewhere and with the sea to the west, only direction left is south.

I was always under the impression that in the north there was some sort of "social contract" between the Starks and the smallfolk where the Starks provide security throughout and sustenance during winter. Due to the sheer size I assumed there is a network of smaller wintertowns and Bran and Rickon were expected to govern some for Robb during winter

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11 minutes ago, hnv said:

I was always under the impression that in the north there was some sort of "social contract" between the Starks and the smallfolk where the Starks provide security throughout and sustenance during winter. Due to the sheer size I assumed there is a network of smaller wintertowns and Bran and Rickon were expected to govern some for Robb during winter

Perhaps, but the whole deal of Wintertown is that Winterfell is built on hotwater springs.

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1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Perhaps, but the whole deal of Wintertown is that Winterfell is built on hotwater springs.

Yep, but it's quite possible that over thousands of years small wintertowns popped around other natural attractors like volcanic activity or favorable terrain against winds and cold

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Since we have established that while not having different languages, Westeros at least had accents... 

Inhabitants of this continent with accents not recognizing "Alayne", tall and fair, who's claimed to have grown up in Vale( entrusted to faith by Braavosi mother who met LF in Gulltown) lacking it's accent and definitely having a Northern one. Considering that except for her hair color she is also the very image of Catelyn who was there just around a year ago, passing through the Gates of the Moon, Stone, Snow and Sky, she should immediately have been recognized to be Sansa Stark who was missing. Sure Myranda Royce and perhaps some others seem to have some suspicions but they should have immediately recognized her to be not of Vale and it shouldn't have taken them long to know her to be Catelyn's daughter. Not only do they not get so many visitors, especially ones that aren't Valemen, but also this is Catelyn we are talking about, daughter to a lord paramount, wife to another and sister to the wife of their own lord, along with Lysa, she was, through their connections, the most important woman in all of Westeros, only eclipsed by Cersei because she became Queen. Even without her status, Catelyn is quite recognizable with her auburn hair and high cheekbones.

 

Quote

"I was teasing. Your mother was a gentlewoman of Braavos, daughter of a merchant prince. We met in Gulltown when I had charge of the port. She died giving you birth, and entrusted you to the Faith. I have some devotional books you can look over. Learn to quote from them. Nothing discourages unwanted questions as much as a flow of pious bleating. In any case, at your flowering you decided you did not wish to be a septa and wrote to me. That was the first I knew of your existence." He fingered his beard. "Do you think you can remember all that?"

 

 

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17 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Since we have established that while not having different languages, Westeros at least had accents... 

Inhabitants of this continent with accents not recognizing "Alayne", tall and fair, who's claimed to have grown up in Vale( entrusted to faith by Braavosi mother who met LF in Gulltown) lacking it's accent and definitely having a Northern one. Considering that except for her hair color she is also the very image of Catelyn who was there just around a year ago, passing through the Gates of the Moon, Stone, Snow and Sky, she should immediately have been recognized to be Sansa Stark who was missing. Sure Myranda Royce and perhaps some others seem to have some suspicions but they should have immediately recognized her to be not of Vale and it shouldn't have taken them long to know her to be Catelyn's daughter. Not only do they not get so many visitors, especially ones that aren't Valemen, but also this is Catelyn we are talking about, daughter to a lord paramount, wife to another and sister to the wife of their own lord, along with Lysa, she was, through their connections, the most important woman in all of Westeros, only eclipsed by Cersei because she became Queen. Even without her status, Catelyn is quite recognizable with her auburn hair and high cheekbones.

 

 

 

I presummed that most of them did realise but are going along with the charade for their own reasons, certainly you'd expect a much bigger fuss being made if they did actually buy it, look at the stink that resulted from Genna marrying a Frey, who are 'merely' hundreds of years old.

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21 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

I presummed that most of them did realise but are going along with the charade for their own reasons, certainly you'd expect a much bigger fuss being made if they did actually buy it, look at the stink that resulted from Genna marrying a Frey, who are 'merely' hundreds of years old.

Harry isn’t an Arryn though, Harry isn’t even a Waynwood, Harry is just the get of an insignificant landed knight who happened to be married to the 8th daughter of a non inheriting Waynwood. Beautiful bastard daughter who is the only child of a Lord Paramount is a match much beyond his status. 

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Escept thats not all he is

if Jon Arryn had living children and grandchildren like he should then he'd a nobody who would be lucky to marry a bastard daughter of someone like Baelish but thats not what happened, with Sweetrobin the only one between him and the Vale hes not a nobody hes Henry Tudor.

Either they know shes Sansa or they think shes Baelishs daughter with Lisa Arryn.

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