Instances of Poor World Building

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

How was Balon able to rebuild the Iron Fleet so quickly and why did Robert allow him to rebuild it at all? I get spearing Balon's life, even if I think it's rather dumb, but why give the man his navy back.

Iron Islands have, well, iron and other metals that are of use. Also Ironborn aren't and never were a serious threat to anyone. When Balon summons all the captains in the isles, he has 400 or so ships  when Redwyne merchant fleet alone number a thousand. Only times Ironborn are ever a threat are when there's fighting.

[sifth]

2 hours ago, illrede said:

Boats depreciate. If the Iron Fleet existed in the first place on a long term basis, it stands to reason the Iron Islands had the ability to replace a great number of the boats in it over a generation. Because they'd be doing that anyway.

Many of the boats described in AFFC's are warships, not simply fishing boats converted into warships.  The fact that the Ironborn were allowed to keep any warships at all after the rebellion, let alone enough to make a fleet, is where I take issue.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Iron Islands have, well, iron and other metals that are of use. Also Ironborn aren't and never were a serious threat to anyone. When Balon summons all the captains in the isles, he has 400 or so ships  when Redwyne merchant fleet alone number a thousand. Only times Ironborn are ever a threat are when there's fighting.

They burned down Lannisport and were a massive threat to the Riverlands in the past. Heck they're making all sorts of trouble for the people near the Shield Islands in the main story. Also ships aren't just made out of iron and metal, wood is also a requirement, something the Iron Islands have very little of.

Edited October 27, 2022 by sifth

[Usako]

No, I get what you're saying about the ravens not being a one-to-one to real world pigeons. The point I was making was that the idea of having great big cages of ravens moving between castles as a way to have an information network isn't strange or unbelievable. That is based on the real world and real history. There's definitely something about the "multiple house" ravens and the white ravens that is unique to the world. Some might see it as part of the Grey Conspiracy (though I love your idea of some kind of warped punishment), but really I think it just falls into the "magic" category. Maybe George is trying to tie into the ravens connection to the Children (ie the "smarter" ravens were maybe those with trapped skinchangers). Like maybe those ravens just bred smarter children? And they do make the point the white ravens are a specially bred class. I don't know. Between the intelligence of ravens and the pigeon forces, that never really bothered me too much. Sure ravens most likely wouldn't put up with it, but for whatever reason that's what he chose, I'll go with it. But of course, what I'm cool with you are in no obligation to be equally cool with.

 

That said, the part in Bran's chapter about the ravens with multiple Children spirits in them always kinda breaks the world for me. Seven hells, how long do Planetos ravens live? Those birds would likely have to be a hundred years old or more for what he describes.

 

Also, as much as I love Asha and the Reader and love reading her chapters, frankly everything about the Ironborn seems likes lazy world building to me. They just don't make any sense. There doesn't seem to be any logical way they could exist as people, let alone some kind of credible threat. Their culture doesn't seem supportable, their islands too inhospitable for the population they have. I know he wanted a "viking culture" but come on, not all Norse were vikings. They really did have farmers and people in charge of their livestock. And while they might have been kickass sailors, they weren't really this unstoppable fighting force that history turned them into. Fierce fighters, sure, but much more raiders than warriors. I just feel like he simplified them waay to much to make them believable.

[Angel Eyes]

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

I think that Westeros could exist as a single state if :

(a) the Kingship is pretty nominal, like Emperor of the HRE.  In that case, the Lords of the various regions would be sovereign in reality, if not de iure;

(b) the alternative is that it has a really powerful bureaucracy, like the Eastern Empire or Imperial China.  The King/Emperor might be powerful, or else, not much more than a figurehead, but the civil servants would keep things running effectively. 

Slavers Bay's economy ought to be based upon slave labour growing cash crops, like cotton, coffee, sugar, spices, and mining for ores, all things that can be readily exported. There would be a substantial slave trade, as workers were brought in to be worked to death.  But, it would be individuals and towns that lived off slave-trading, not whole societies. 

There would be a class of "privileged" slaves, working in the houses of rich, and as artisans, minor bureaucrats, some of whom might actually identify quite strongly with their masters, as opposed to the field hands and mine slaves.  

As far as the slave trade is concerned, isn't the Dothraki raid in AGOT (the one where Drogo gets an infected wound) part of that? In this case, they take slaves so they can get supplies for the trip westward?

[SeanF]

14 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

As far as the slave trade is concerned, isn't the Dothraki raid in AGOT (the one where Drogo gets an infected wound) part of that? In this case, they take slaves so they can get supplies for the trip westward?

Yes, and there are plenty of slaves who are put to work growing food, or working in brothels.

But, the wealth of the masters of Slavers Bay depends hugely upon the export of slaves, bought from the Dothraki and pirates.

The most “efficient” slave-based economies, St. Domingue, the Ante-Bellum South, the Congo Free State, Brazil, depended upon working the slaves flat out, producing cash crops for export, and then replacing them as they died, with fresh slaves.

Edited October 27, 2022 by SeanF

[Corvo the Crow]

49 minutes ago, sifth said:

They burned down Lannisport and were a massive threat to the Riverlands in the past. Heck they're making all sorts of trouble for the people near the Shield Islands in the main story. Also ships aren't just made out of iron and metal, wood is also a requirement, something the Iron Islands have very little of.

They have valuable metals, so they are allowed to build ships, those metals are useful for the kingdom. All these threats you mention are during or soon after times of war.

 

[DMC]

Do names count?  Having three generations of Tullys named Grover, Elmo, Kermit, and Oscar was a pretty funny joke when they were introduced in the World Book.  But now we're on the cusp of actors having to discuss and even play these characters with a straight face.  Similarly, the Martell that foolishly lost an invasion 100% to zero being named "Morion" is a little much.

[Ran]

6 minutes ago, DMC said:

Similarly, the Martell that foolishly lost an invasion 100% to zero being named "Morion" is a little much.

He should have been called Namor Martell. I told George this. Then he'd be Namor the Submariner.

I suspect that Ryan's aversion to changing names will not prevent him from adjusting the names of Grover's descendants  Elmo could become Elmer. Kermit and Oscar, I don't know.

[DMC]

Just now, Ran said:

He should have been called Namor Martell. I told George this. Then he'd be Namor the Submariner.

LOL, that would've been pretty good and little less on the nose.  

And yeah, hopefully they change some of the names for the latter three - with Elmo the best candidate.  Oscar seems fine on its own.

[Jaenara Belarys]

13 minutes ago, DMC said:

 Similarly, the Martell that foolishly lost an invasion 100% to zero being named "Morion" is a little much.

What's the problem with Morion? 

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

What's the problem with Morion? 

It's one letter off from his name being Moron Martell.

[Ran]

1 minute ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

What's the problem with Morion? 

Well, it's pretty close to "moron".

Yeah, Grover, Elmer, and Oscar... but can't have Kermit. Too distinctive. Then again, who knows? Maybe he'll keep it and make a joke of it.

 

[Jaenara Belarys]

10 minutes ago, DMC said:

It's one letter off from his name being Moron Martell.

A fitting name, given what he tried to do.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Usako said:

Also, as much as I love Asha and the Reader and love reading her chapters, frankly everything about the Ironborn seems likes lazy world building to me. They just don't make any sense. There doesn't seem to be any logical way they could exist as people, let alone some kind of credible threat. Their culture doesn't seem supportable, their islands too inhospitable for the population they have. I know he wanted a "viking culture" but come on, not all Norse were vikings. They really did have farmers and people in charge of their livestock. And while they might have been kickass sailors, they weren't really this unstoppable fighting force that history turned them into. Fierce fighters, sure, but much more raiders than warriors. I just feel like he simplified them waay to much to make them believable.

Actually their population is quite meager. 

Quote

The waters of Ironman's Bay are home to great schools of cod, black cod, monkfish, skate, icefish, sardines, and mackerel. Crabs and lobsters are found along the shores of all the islands, and west of Great Wyk swordfish, seals, and whales roam the Sunset Sea. Archmaester Hake, born and raised on Harlaw, estimates that seven of every ten families on the Iron Islands are fisherfolk. However mean and poor these men might be on land, upon the sea they are their own masters. "The man who owns a boat need never be a thrall," Hake writes, "for every captain is a king upon the deck of his own ship." It is their catch that feeds the islands.

As I said before when Balon calls all the captains, there are fewer than 400 ships with 2 more lords yet to join. 

Quote

The long smoky hall was crowded with his father's lords and captains when Theon entered, near four hundred of them. Dagmer Cleftjaw had not yet returned from Old Wyk with the Stonehouses and Drumms, but all the rest were there—Harlaws from Harlaw, Blacktydes from Blacktyde, Sparrs, Merlyns, and Goodbrothers from Great Wyk, Saltcliffes and Sunderlies from Saltcliffe, and Botleys and Wynches from the other side of Pyke. The thralls were pouring ale, and there was music, fiddles and skins and drums. Three burly men were doing the finger dance, spinning short-hafted axes at each other. The trick was to catch the axe or leap over it without missing a step. It was called the finger dance because it usually ended when one of the dancers lost one . . . or two, or five.

These two lords aren't as powerful as Lord Goodbrother, who brought near 40 ships so entire Iron Isles don't even have 500 ships. 

Quote

Lord Goodbrother of Great Wyk had come in the night before with his main strength, near forty longships. His men were everywhere, conspicuous in their striped goat's hair sashes. It was said about the inn that Otter Gimpknee's whores were being fucked bowlegged by beardless boys in sashes. The boys were welcome to them so far as Theon was concerned. A poxier den of slatterns he hoped he'd never see. His present companion was more to his taste. That she was wed to his father's shipwright and pregnant to boot only made her more intriguing.

Notice how his crews have a noticable amount of beardless boys.

 

Iron fleet ships, of which there are larger than longships(3 or 4 times the size of them if i recall), closer to smaller war galleys which have 100 oars but there are only 100 of them

Quote

 

"What of your new dromonds?" asked Ser Harys. "The longships of the ironmen cannot stand before our dromonds, surely? King Robert's Hammer is the mightiest warship in all Westeros."

"She was," said Waters. "Sweet Cersei will be her equal, once complete, and Lord Tywin will be twice the size of either. Only half are fitted out, however, and none is fully crewed. Even when they are, the numbers would be greatly against us. The common longship is small compared to our galleys, this is true, but the ironmen have larger ships as well. Lord Balon's Great Kraken and the warships of the Iron Fleet were made for battle, not for raids. They are the equal of our lesser war galleys in speed and strength, and most are better crewed and captained. The ironmen live their whole lives at sea."

 

Quote

 

The port was as crowded as Davos had ever known it. Every dock teemed with sailors loading provisions, and every inn was packed with soldiers dicing or drinking or looking for a whore . . . a vain search, since Stannis permitted none on his island. Ships lined the strand; war galleys and fishing vessels, stout carracks and fat-bottomed cogs. The best berths had been taken by the largest vessels: Stannis's flagship Fury rocking between Lord Steffon and Stag of the Sea, Lord Velaryon's silver-hulled Pride of Driftmark and her three sisters, Lord Celtigar's ornate Red Claw, the ponderous Swordfish with her long iron prow. Out to sea at anchor rode Salladhor Saan's great Valyrian amongst the striped hulls of two dozen smaller Lysene galleys.

A weathered little inn sat on the end of the stone pier where Black Betha, Wraith, and Lady Marya shared mooring space with a half-dozen other galleys of one hundred oars or less. Davos had a thirst. He took his leave of his sons and turned his steps toward the inn. Out front squatted a waist-high gargoyle, so eroded by rain and salt that his features were all but obliterated. He and Davos were old friends, though. He gave a pat to the stone head as he went in. "Luck," he murmured.

---------------------------

Fury herself would center the first line of battle, flanked by the Lord Steffon and the Stag of the Sea, each of two hundred oars. On the port and starboard wings were the hundreds: Lady Harra, Brightfish, Laughing Lord, Sea Demon, Horned Honor, Ragged Jenna, Trident Three, Swift Sword, Princess Rhaenys, Dog's Nose, Sceptre, Faithful, Red Raven, Queen Alysanne, Cat, Courageous, and Dragonsbane. From every stern streamed the fiery heart of the Lord of Light, red and yellow and orange. Behind Davos and his sons came another line of hundreds commanded by knights and lordly captains, and then the smaller, slower Myrish contingent, none dipping more than eighty oars. Farther back would come the sailed ships, carracks and lumbering great cogs, and last of all Salladhor Saan in his proud Valyrian, a towering three-hundred, paced by the rest of his galleys with their distinctive striped hulls. The flamboyant Lyseni princeling had not been pleased to be assigned the rear guard, but it was clear that Ser Imry trusted him no more than Stannis did. Too many complaints, and too much talk of the gold he was owed. Davos was sorry nonetheless. Salladhor Saan was a resourceful old pirate, and his crews were born seamen, fearless in a fight. They were wasted in the rear.

 

 

So there you have it, entire naval power of Iron Isles is not even 500 ships, of which most are longships and one of the most powerful lords who, due to the mines he own is perhaps the richest one, have too many boys crewing his ship.

Add to these the fact that a maester who was born and raised in the isles tell that 7 out of 10 families are fishers. Entire population of the Iron Isles may not even be as much as Oldtown, let alone Kingslanding.

[Daemon of the Blacks]

I always found the Faceless Men a really silly instance of worldbuilding. 

If they're such great assassins and can kill everyone while making it look like an accident then why are they never hired? Why didn't Tywin's enemies die like flies, why didn't Littlefinger make use of them? Or why doesn't Otto make use of them to give Daemon an...accident. That they're extremely expensive like Littlefinger suggests isn't really a good argument. Tywin and Otto are about the richest men in the universe so if they can't even afford the Faceless Men then they're so expensive as to be unemployable.

[Corvo the Crow]

7 minutes ago, Daemon of the Blacks said:

I always found the Faceless Men a really silly instance of worldbuilding. 

If they're such great assassins and can kill everyone while making it look like an accident then why are they never hired? Why didn't Tywin's enemies die like flies, why didn't Littlefinger make use of them? Or why doesn't Otto make use of them to give Daemon an...accident. That they're extremely expensive like Littlefinger suggests isn't really a good argument. Tywin and Otto are about the richest men in the universe so if they can't even afford the Faceless Men then they're so expensive as to be unemployable.

I wonder if the faceless men take on the appearence of someone for too long they believe themselves to be that person like the Tleilaxu Face Dancers they were inspired from.

[sifth]

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

They have valuable metals, so they are allowed to build ships, those metals are useful for the kingdom. All these threats you mention are during or soon after times of war.

 

Yea, but why warships?

[Ingelheim]

Essos in general is poorly built. But for me, the Unsullied take the crown.

The most elite infantry in Essos comes from thousands of little boys castrated when they were children. Lol. Give me a break.

In real life, the Unsullied would be 1.50 meters tall and weigh 45 kilos each. And that's being kind of generous. They wouldn't have any actual form physique for combat.

In Westeros, as many have mentioned already, the lack of languages is basically impossible. Westeros is larger than Europe, there would be at least a dozen major languages spoken. That's one of the main differences between Tolkien and Martin, though Tolkien was a linguist.

Also, if seasons actually worked like they do in ASOIAF, the entire human civilization would have likely collapsed. Anyway, it would be almost impossible for humans to feed themselves.

Edited October 27, 2022 by Ingelheim

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Ingelheim said:

Essos in general is poorly built. But for me, the Unsullied take the crown.

The most elite infantry in Essos comes from thousands of little boys castrated when they were children. Lol. Give me a break.

In real life, the Unsullied would be 1.50 meters tall and weigh 45 kilos each. And that's being kind of generous. They wouldn't have any actual form physique for combat.

In Westeros, as many have mentioned already, the lack of languages is basically impossible. Westeros is larger than Europe, there would be at least a dozen major languages spoken. That's one of the main differences between Tolkien and Martin, though Tolkien was a linguist.

Also, if seasons actually worked like they do in ASOIAF, the entire human civilization would have likely collapsed. Anyway, it would be almost impossible for humans to feed themselves.

Well, in the case of the Unsullied, that's the whole idea; they are physically weaker than the average soldier thanks to their castration and aren't particularly good fighters on their own. What makes them a force on the battlefield is being in a phalanx and their robotic loyalty... which also makes them useless off the battlefield as guards when they're only in small groups and their weapons are ill suited for fighting in close quarters.