Instances of Poor World Building

[Craving Peaches]

How young some of the Characters get married. I believe GRRM himself has said he wished he made Daenerys etc. older. Marriages at that age did happen in medieval times but not as often as the books suggest. The purpose of marriage, as well as alliance-making, was for childbirth, to produce heirs, and marrying too young was detrimental to this pursuit. 

[Corvo the Crow]

Sandor's prize of 40.000 gold carried on a small pouch. 

Noble (English coin) - Wikipedia This is the first English gold coin that was produced in large numbers. Since Westeros is primarily based off of England, I'm taking this as example. It says it weighed 9.0 grams when first introduced and later on dropped as low as 7.8 grams. even with the lower value it is still 312 kilos of weight. Sandor is big and strong but I'm not sure he is carry 312 kilos of weight above all that armor and stuff big and strong and his horse, the Stranger, well I'm pretty sure it would meet the Stranger soon enough as the average horse only carry comfortably about %20 of their ideal weight. Sandor would need a horse weighing 1.5 tons just for his gold alone. Sampson can carry his gold but he'd need a second horse for himself Sampson (horse) - Wikipedia

 

Edited October 29, 2022 by Corvo the Crow

[Corvo the Crow]

5 minutes ago, Toth said:

I think you could also look at it as an oath thing: Jaime is a knight of the Kingsguard and sworn to Robert Baratheon. While he did threaten Ned in the scene out of wrath about Tyrion's capture, I'm thinking that it entered Jaime's thought process that he would violate the constraints of his position by acting as a Lannister instead of a Kingsguard if he personally attacked his liege's best friend. So he ordered the Lannister Men at arms to do it for him/for Tyrion, so it's technically not him personally raising arms against Stark.

uh-huh and how does Jory, Heward and Wyl fit into this? You attack a lord's men, be it a household knight or a bannermen, you attack that lord. When Tywin's mad dog attacked the Riverlanders, it was an attack on Lord Hoster. 

[Angel Eyes]

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

How young some of the Characters get married. I believe GRRM himself has said he wished he made Daenerys etc. older. Marriages at that age did happen in medieval times but not as often as the books suggest. The purpose of marriage, as well as alliance-making, was for childbirth, to produce heirs, and marrying too young was detrimental to this pursuit. 

It did happen a lot to be sure; Margaret Beaufort for example was not yet 14 when she gave birth to Henry VII. Isabella of France, the daughter of Phillip the Fair whose troubles as a monarch were adapted into the book The Accursed Kings which was a big inspiration for A Song of Ice and Fire, was no more than 13 when she was married to Edward II.

[Ran]

8 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Sandor's prize of 40.000 gold carried on a small pouch. 

He did not have 40,000 dragons. He had about 9,000. George has also mused on the idea of there being a "grand dragon", a large coin of account that had a value greater than its metal value.

But even if it was all dragons, and using that 7.8 gram figure, that's 70 kg. Given that Sandor appears to have left behind his plate armor for the most part, probably just about doable for Stranger to do it. (And of course, gold dragons could weigh even less. There were lighter gold coins than that.)

  

26 minutes ago, sifth said:

Yet, we're constantly told by both Jamie himself and others who know him, that Jamie Lannister, always does his own killing, he doesn't leave that work to other men.

He kills other lords himself. Even boy lords like Bran. Ordering soldiers to kill other soliders? Sure. It's a sign of disdain.

Edited October 29, 2022 by Ran

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Angel Eyes said:

It did happen a lot to be sure; Margaret Beaufort for example was not yet 14 when she gave birth to Henry VII. Isabella of France, the daughter of Phillip the Fair whose troubles as a monarch were adapted into the book The Accursed Kings which was a big inspiration for A Song of Ice and Fire, was no more than 13 when she was married to Edward II.

I'm not saying it was a rarity but I don't think it was quite as common as the books made it out to be. 15-16 seems a more frequent age.

[Corvo the Crow]

7 minutes ago, Ran said:

He did not have 40,000 dragons. He had about 9,000. George has also mused on the idea of there being a "grand dragon", a large coin of account that had a value greater than its metal value.

But even if it was all dragons, and using that 7.8 gram figure, that's 70 kg. Given that Sandor appears to have left behind his plate armor for the most part, probably just about doable for Stranger to do it. (And of course, gold dragons could weigh even less. There were lighter gold coins than that.)

Ah, it is more doable then, yes, but then rises the question where did the other 30.000 even go? Dose he have an appetite for whores and wines that is three times as much of Anguy's? But maybe this part was explained, and I just forgot since it was a long time ago that I read it.

Edited October 29, 2022 by Corvo the Crow

[Corvo the Crow]

7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I'm not saying it was a rarity but I don't think it was quite as common as the books made it out to be. 15-16 seems a more frequent age.

I don't remember at what age most of these people marry but once the girls have "flowered" they are good to go. I assume 15-16 is usually the earliest age boys marry(most would be married much later though).

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Corvo the Crow said:

nce the girls have "flowered" they are good to go

But childbearing at too early an age is dangerous for both the mother and the baby. I don't think people in real life married that young all the time. Infant mortality rate was already high...

[sifth]

12 minutes ago, Ran said:

He kills other lords himself. Even boy lords like Bran. Ordering soldiers to kill other soliders? Sure. It's a sign of disdain.

I don't recall him saying "I kill lords myself", I just recall Jamie saying "I do my own killing", it's how he convinces Cat, that he didn't send that assassin to kill Bran, that and fully admitting that he threw Bran out the widow.

[Ran]

4 minutes ago, sifth said:

"I do my own killing", it's how he convinces Cat, that he didn't send that assassin to kill Bran, that and fully admitting that he threw Bran out the widow.

Quote

"I may indeed have shit for honor, I won't deny it, but I have never yet hired anyone to do my killing. "

He's talking about not hiring assassins if he personally wants someone dead. Ned's men? He didn't care about them. Their deaths were an object lesson, not some personal vendetta that concerned them.

He's captured leading men who he's going to command to kill other people for him. You're being extremely strict in your reading of his remark and it flies in the face of things he actually does both before and after that line.

Edited October 29, 2022 by Ran

[Corvo the Crow]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

But childbearing at too early an age is dangerous for both the mother and the baby. I don't think people in real life married that young all the time. Infant mortality rate was already high...

I don't know if that was the case in real life. Since giving birth was dangerous as well, they may -at least until such time  they have understood bearing a child at an earlier age is more dangerous- have tried to have children as early as possible. Remember that inbreeding among some of the nobility was quite common such as the Habsburgs. Since they didn't have an understanding that inbreeding was bad (or at least didn't apply that understanding) even with it's consequences so apparent, I doubt they had an understanding that having children early on is bad (or at least they didn't apply that understanding among the nobility).

[Hrulj]

6 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I don't know if that was the case in real life. Since giving birth was dangerous as well, they may -at least until such time  they have understood bearing a child at an earlier age is more dangerous- have tried to have children as early as possible. Remember that inbreeding among some of the nobility was quite common such as the Habsburgs. Since they didn't have an understanding that inbreeding was bad (or at least didn't apply that understanding) even with it's consequences so apparent, I doubt they had an understanding that having children early on is bad (or at least they didn't apply that understanding among the nobility).

People could be married quite young in medieval period, it's the consumation of marriage that matters the most for the age and was often delayed sometimes even for years. 

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Corvo the Crow said:

Since they didn't have an understanding that inbreeding was bad

They did realise at some point when the mental/physical deformities got quite bad, if I remember correctly.

The minimum (legal) age seems to be 12 for girls, 14 for boys. However it seems to be that noble women got married later than peasant women. A figure of 17-25 was suggested for noblewomen when I did a search.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

28 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I don't know if that was the case in real life. Since giving birth was dangerous as well, they may -at least until such time  they have understood bearing a child at an earlier age is more dangerous- have tried to have children as early as possible. Remember that inbreeding among some of the nobility was quite common such as the Habsburgs. Since they didn't have an understanding that inbreeding was bad (or at least didn't apply that understanding) even with it's consequences so apparent, I doubt they had an understanding that having children early on is bad (or at least they didn't apply that understanding among the nobility).

Now that I remember, there was apparently a practice among noblewomen to shave their foreheads for their portraits (ones done for marriage-betrothal purposes) so they can show "look how huge my head is, my mother was able to give birth to me with my huge head, I'll have no trouble giving birth" How true this was, I don't know but there are plenty of portraits of medieval women with shaved foreheads.

[SeanF]

57 minutes ago, Ran said:

He did not have 40,000 dragons. He had about 9,000. George has also mused on the idea of there being a "grand dragon", a large coin of account that had a value greater than its metal value.

But even if it was all dragons, and using that 7.8 gram figure, that's 70 kg. Given that Sandor appears to have left behind his plate armor for the most part, probably just about doable for Stranger to do it. (And of course, gold dragons could weigh even less. There were lighter gold coins than that.)

  

He kills other lords himself. Even boy lords like Bran. Ordering soldiers to kill other soliders? Sure. It's a sign of disdain.

If it was like the solidus of the Roman Empire, which weighed 4.5 grams, that would be forty kilos.

[Lady Misery]

On 10/27/2022 at 11:19 PM, Daemon of the Blacks said:

I always found the Faceless Men a really silly instance of worldbuilding. 

If they're such great assassins and can kill everyone while making it look like an accident then why are they never hired? Why didn't Tywin's enemies die like flies, why didn't Littlefinger make use of them? Or why doesn't Otto make use of them to give Daemon an...accident. That they're extremely expensive like Littlefinger suggests isn't really a good argument. Tywin and Otto are about the richest men in the universe so if they can't even afford the Faceless Men then they're so expensive as to be unemployable.

my headcanon is that they don't always ask for payment in gold, particularly if their client is wealthy. Rather I imagine that they ask for something of an immense personal/emotional value. 

[Angel Eyes]

I think there should have been a bit more of variance with languages or vernacular, just think of different words to describe the same thing in the US alone, to say nothing of bobbies and cops on either side of the Atlantic Ocean.

[Angel Eyes]

On 10/27/2022 at 4:44 PM, Ran said:

He should have been called Namor Martell. I told George this. Then he'd be Namor the Submariner.

I suspect that Ryan's aversion to changing names will not prevent him from adjusting the names of Grover's descendants  Elmo could become Elmer. Kermit and Oscar, I don't know.

He could have just chosen Eddard, Gordyn, and Henry for all I care.

[sifth]

58 minutes ago, Ran said:

He's talking about not hiring assassins if he personally wants someone dead. Ned's men? He didn't care about them. Their deaths were an object lesson, not some personal vendetta that concerned them.

He's captured leading men who he's going to command to kill other people for him. You're being extremely strict in your reading of his remark and it flies in the face of things he actually does both before and after that line.

Just saying, you see Jamie even in the Whispering Wood, fighting along side his men, not leading from behind. Again, not relying on others to do the dirty work for him, but fighting along side them. It feels weird giving Jamie a Darth Vader type moment, where he just stands back and lets his men/stormtroopers do the dirty work for him.

I mean for obvious reasons, Jamie will probably be leading from behind going forward, considering he's crippled and is on a bit of a redemption arc. But the Jamie at the time, the one people constantly say "does his own killing, himself", to just stand behind and laugh, while his men kill people for him, just feels strange.

Edited October 29, 2022 by sifth