Sansa is slowly killing Sweetrobin

[Corvo the Crow]

6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Tyrion has the ultimate plot armour.

Dany as well, since she’s also survived some impossible odds many of them due to her own fault and these two learn even slower than Sansa. Tyrion comes to us a very smart and experienced person but hasn’t added much since then and Dany, well she appears to have learned lessons from her experiences and we see this in her povs,  she is at least quite aware how and why those things, whether through her own fault or not, happened, either through her own deduction or with the help of her councillors but somehow she still manages to keep doing mistakes.

[Craving Peaches]

3 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Dany as well

I think Tyrion has slightly more plot armour though. But Daenerys has also had some moments where she got lucky.

Edited November 5, 2022 by Craving Peaches

[The Sleeper]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't know. Petyr's ambitions for Alayne to marry Harry the heir are all for nought if Sweet Robin lives to a ripe old age, right? 

It doesn't seem as much as an ambition as it is setting himself up for the future. Sweetrobin, as things stand now seems unlikely to grow up to a healthy individual much less an effective lord of the Vale. Being the guardian of such an individual is a liability, besides the fact that it is a position with an expiration date, though I don't believe that he cares that much for the title as it is not much good to him.

Meanwhile, public displays of Sweetrobin's frailty and demeanor would only be ammunition to his rivals in regards to his suitability for the role of guardian and Lord Protector. However, it is a risky strategy, because should Robert die before he has secured his position in Harry's circle he is in danger of being marginalised.

He needs to find a way to stay relevant. 

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

It doesn't seem as much as an ambition as it is setting himself up for the future. Sweetrobin, as things stand now seems unlikely to grow up to a healthy individual much less an effective lord of the Vale. Being the guardian of such an individual is a liability, besides the fact that it is a position with an expiration date, though I don't believe that he cares that much for the title as it is not much good to him.

Being the guardian of such an individual is much better than being the father in law of Harry Lord of the Vale, a healthy adult. At least it has a date of expiration that is in best case scenario what 8 years into the future, whereas the other is immediate termination of the authority and priviliges you held as the guardian of the vale.

Killing Robyn, at least in the near future, is the worst move Petyr can pull in the vale. Marrying Sansa to the heir ensures that should Robyn dies, which is quite possible and even expected considering his sickly nature and that the Winter has come, you still have some degree of connection to the ruler of Vale and may have a sway over him but it is nowhere near that as of the Lord Protector where you basically rule the vale yourself.

Edited November 5, 2022 by Corvo the Crow

[Rosetta Stone]

On 10/29/2022 at 10:41 AM, Kierria said:

Sweetrobin is slowly being poisoned.  It is not yet a crime of murder because the child is still alive but Sansa is part of the insidious plot to murder the child and take all that is his.  Will Sansa go through with the murder?  The odds are close to even but does lean lightly to Sansa doing the crime. 

Look back on Sansa's past and tell me what you think.  Tell me what you think will happen. 

Lord Robert Arryn, the boy known as SweetRobin, will be murdered by Sansa Stark.  That is what I think will occur in the future.  

[chrisdaw]

9 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Being the guardian of such an individual is much better than being the father in law of Harry Lord of the Vale, a healthy adult. At least it has a date of expiration that is in best case scenario what 8 years into the future, whereas the other is immediate termination of the authority and priviliges you held as the guardian of the vale.

Killing Robyn, at least in the near future, is the worst move Petyr can pull in the vale. Marrying Sansa to the heir ensures that should Robyn dies, which is quite possible and even expected considering his sickly nature and that the Winter has come, you still have some degree of connection to the ruler of Vale and may have a sway over him but it is nowhere near that as of the Lord Protector where you basically rule the vale yourself.

Obviously Littlefinger is backing himself to be able to ingratiate himself into Harry's inner circle and Sansa is the opening gift. Littlefinger would almost certainly play it from the angle that he just gave Harry the keys to the North. Gambling on himself is what Littlefinger does, and he's not about to stagnate behind Robert Arryn in the Vale.

But it doesn't matter because none of this is happening, Harry is dead man walking and Littlefinger isn't far behind, Sansa will be playing for Sansa well before the end of Winds. It is very simple, Sansa is the one with the arc, the character that matters, and Sansa's arc is pawn to player and Robert Arryn is the perfect pawn for her to play, the easiest and first, he continues to live and love Sansa and and she controls the Vale.

[The Sleeper]

11 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Being the guardian of such an individual is much better than being the father in law of Harry Lord of the Vale, a healthy adult. At least it has a date of expiration that is in best case scenario what 8 years into the future, whereas the other is immediate termination of the authority and priviliges you held as the guardian of the vale.

Killing Robyn, at least in the near future, is the worst move Petyr can pull in the vale. Marrying Sansa to the heir ensures that should Robyn dies, which is quite possible and even expected considering his sickly nature and that the Winter has come, you still have some degree of connection to the ruler of Vale and may have a sway over him but it is nowhere near that as of the Lord Protector where you basically rule the vale yourself.

I agree for the most part. What I wrote is reffering to the problems the positions bring him. He is simply does not have the clout to make good on the authority he should have in theory, in terms of prestige, military might and pedigree. Furthermore it is a contentious office which he acquired in dubious circumstances and has a tenuous claim to, which is why the Vale was on the brink of open revolt to deprive him of it as soon as he gained the position. His power lies in having a network of influence and making deals. 

Of course, having the title is better than not having it. If nothing else, he could well be kicked out of the Vale entirely if Robert dies. And being the Lord Protector gives him a place and a reason for people to deal with him and helps him expand his influence. The reason he is taking such risks is precisely because his status in the Vale is precarious. 

Essentially this is plan C. Plan A would have been a stable and manageable Lysa and B a healthy Robert whom he would have had the time to mold into his puppet, while ruling in his name. Sansa to Littlefinger is essentially Lysa 2.0.

[Corvo the Crow]

5 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Obviously Littlefinger is backing himself to be able to ingratiate himself into Harry's inner circle and Sansa is the opening gift. Littlefinger would almost certainly play it from the angle that he just gave Harry the keys to the North. Gambling on himself is what Littlefinger does, and he's not about to stagnate behind Robert Arryn in the Vale.

Sure, but while Alayne Stone, maiden daughter of Petyr Baelish has no husband and can be married with, Sansa Lannister nee Stark is married to Tyrion son of Tywin of the clan Lannister, a man that is the benefactor of the savage moon clans no less, so unless Petyr can present proof of Tyrion’s death or bring Tysha with her daughter Lanna from Braavos to prove that Tyrion was married and therefore Sansa marriage couldn’t have been.

3 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Of course, having the title is better than not having it. If nothing else, he could well be kicked out of the Vale entirely if Robert dies. And being the Lord Protector gives him a place and a reason for people to deal with him and helps him expand his influence. The reason he is taking such risks is precisely because his status in the Vale is precarious. 

 

Agree. Harry the Heir is obviously named to remind us of Hairy Bear as in Bear and the Maiden Fair and we know what happens to that bear through Brienne’s -who is known mockingly as beauty- time in Harrenhal, a place that has a connection to vale  through Petyr.

[MissM]

On 11/3/2022 at 10:45 PM, Craving Peaches said:

I agree. This is what she has done 'wrong', the lie to Robert.

This could be why Lady died. But I don't believe Sansa betrayed anyone, certainly not her own family. And it wasn't a massive lie or anything. Lying is no good but it wasn't enough to constitute betrayal in my view.

She knew what happened, she was there and saw everything and chose not to say. Then goes on to blame her sister and wishing death upon her. 

Also, I think @chrisdaw is right:

In regards to the conversation about the dire wolves and the Starks the point was made (I forget by whom) that Lady was dead and Sansa still alive to which I replied that Sansa wasn't really much of a Stark anymore. IIRC (this is a little hazy), at this point GRRM kind of leaned back in his chair, smiled and said something to the effect of "A very astute observation." 

 

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, MissM said:

She knew what happened, she was there and saw everything and chose not to say.

She did say, though. She told her father. And she didn't side with the Lannisters. All she said was that she didn't remember. So I do not classify it as betrayal. Betrayal is a very serious issue. There must be intention to betray the family or recklessness as to whether you could be betraying the family, none of which I see Sansa demonstrating.

If she sided with Joffrey then yes, but she did not. She didn't take a side.

[MissM]

47 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

She did say, though. She told her father. And she didn't side with the Lannisters. All she said was that she didn't remember. So I do not classify it as betrayal. Betrayal is a very serious issue. There must be intention to betray the family or recklessness as to whether you could be betraying the family, none of which I see Sansa demonstrating.

If she sided with Joffrey then yes, but she did not. She didn't take a side.

When she was asked in front of a Robert she lied about not knowing what happened. She knew. Her intention was to not piss off her future sadistic husband and ruin her betrothal. Self-interest. Sansa and the other adults looked upon poor Mycah as completely insignificant, his life mattered naught because of his station in life. Sansa lied and lost her wolf. Arya told the truth, protected an innocent boy and also lost her wolf in a different way. Cersei is on Arya's list because of what she did to Lady. Then later on, Sansa goes on to not only blame her sister, who is already suffering from the weight of everything that happened - Sansa wishes Arya was dead. Are you not going to address this point? Her lie in front of the King was selfish and her treatment of Arya was cruel post-Trident. 

 

[Craving Peaches]

11 minutes ago, MissM said:

When she was asked in front of a Robert she lied about not knowing what happened. She knew. Her intention was to not piss off her future sadistic husband and ruin her betrothal. Self-interest.

I am well aware of that. But it isn't just self-interest, the whole family benefits from such a marriage.

11 minutes ago, MissM said:

Sansa lied and lost her wolf. Arya told the truth, protected an innocent boy and also lost her wolf in a different way. Cersei is on Arya's list because of what she did to Lady.

Nymeria didn't die. Lady did die. Arya did not lie in front of the King. Sansa did.

11 minutes ago, MissM said:

Cersei is on Arya's list because of what she did to Lady. Then later on, Sansa goes on to not only blame her sister, who is already suffering from the weight of everything that happened - Sansa wishes Arya was dead. Are you not going to address this point? Her lie in front of the King was selfish and her treatment of Arya was cruel post-Trident. 

This is all well and good but it still doesn't mean that Sansa betrayed her family. Yes, she did not tell the truth, but she didn't side with the Lannisters either. If she sided with Joffrey then I would consider it a betrayal but she did not. Since I don't believe Sansa betrayed anyone, I think that if there is a thematic reason why Lady died, it would be because Sansa lied to the King.

Edited November 6, 2022 by Craving Peaches

[Nathan Stark]

4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I am well aware of that. But it isn't just self-interest, the whole family benefits from such a marriage.

Nymeria didn't die. Lady did die. Arya did not lie in front of the King. Sansa did.

This is all well and good but it still doesn't mean that Sansa betrayed her family. Yes, she did not tell the truth, but she didn't side with the Lannisters either. If she sided with Joffrey then I would consider it a betrayal but she did not. Since I don't believe Sansa betrayed anyone, I think that if there is a thematic reason why Lady died, it would be because Sansa lied to the King.

I completely disagree. The thematic reason for Lady's death is the forshadowing of House Stark's fall at Cersei's hands, and the death of Sansa's childhood dreams. Lady did not die because Sansa lied to the King. She died because Nymeria wasn't there for Cersei to vent her rage upon.

[SeanF]

Does it matter, if Sansa kills Sweetrobin?

[Craving Peaches]

44 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

I completely disagree. The thematic reason for Lady's death is the forshadowing of House Stark's fall at Cersei's hands, and the death of Sansa's childhood dreams. Lady did not die because Sansa lied to the King. She died because Nymeria wasn't there for Cersei to vent her rage upon.

I agree that it's Cersei's fault that Lady died. What I meant is that if Lady died because Sansa was being 'punished' for something, it would be because she lied to Robert, not because she betrayed her family, because I don't see how she did that. Apologies if I was unclear.

[Craving Peaches]

21 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Does it matter, if Sansa kills Sweetrobin?

I don't think many people would miss him.

[SeanF]

31 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't think many people would miss him.

I think most readers would applaud.

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think most readers would applaud.

I'd have more sympathy give he suffers from epileptic fits and has an unhealthy relationship with his mother that doesn't seem to be his fault, but then he ruins it by being a little creep who likes to see people get chucked off the mountain.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

I though think he'll survive, the boy seems to have developped a strong resistance to milk of the poppy. He can take a quantity of it that could knock a healthy adult out and is still up. 

[Craving Peaches]

11 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

have developped a strong resistance to milk of the poppy

And an opiate addiction.