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Sansa is slowly killing Sweetrobin


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1 hour ago, Nevets said:

It's not a textual fact that she is purposely poisoning him, which is what I meant.  She is trying to make him stronger, not weaker.  Poisoning defeats the purpose.

She is making him temporarily more pliant to the detriment of his long term health, as has been explained to her, which is the purpose of the storyline.

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5 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

She is making him temporarily more pliant to the detriment of his long term health, as has been explained to her, which is the purpose of the storyline.

Not really. What was explained to her was that Sweetrobin could be given two more doses as long as he wasn't given any more in six months, so as far as Sansa knows he's not currently in danger of suffering long term effects.

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36 minutes ago, GMantis said:

Not really. What was explained to her was that Sweetrobin could be given two more doses as long as he wasn't given any more in six months, so as far as Sansa knows he's not currently in danger of suffering long term effects.

Exactly. Besides the fact that medicine & dosing are not Sansa's responsibility. If the Maesters give it & tell her to give it to him, that's hardly her fault. 

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1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Exactly. Besides the fact that medicine & dosing are not Sansa's responsibility. If the Maesters give it & tell her to give it to him, that's hardly her fault. 

To be fair, Maester Colemon didn't want Robert getting any more sweetsleep at all.  Of course, he also wanted Robert to go down from the Eyrie unconscious, slung over the back of a mule like a sack of potatoes.  A fine idea for Robert Arryn the boy.  A dreadful one for Robert Lord of the Eyrie.  He would never live it down.  So Sansa convinced the Maester to allow it, immediate needs overriding long term ones.

Baelish may well be interested in keeping Robert weak and pliant, but Sansa's not.

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5 minutes ago, Nevets said:

To be fair, Maester Colemon didn't want Robert getting any more sweetsleep at all.  Of course, he also wanted Robert to go down from the Eyrie unconscious, slung over the back of a mule like a sack of potatoes.  A fine idea for Robert Arryn the boy.  A dreadful one for Robert Lord of the Eyrie.  He would never live it down.  So Sansa convinced the Maester to allow it, immediate needs overriding long term ones.

Baelish may well be interested in keeping Robert weak and pliant, but Sansa's not.

Agreed. 

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On 11/8/2022 at 9:10 AM, SeanF said:

At this point in the tale, Sansa is a little snot, stupid and stuck up.  Ned and Arya are disgusted about Mycah’s death.  Sansa was bothered about his smell, and told Arya she should have been killed, rather than Lady.

Sansa will later develop empathy and compassion, which is part of her growth as a character, but she doesn’t possess it at this point.

She is a little snobbish. She doesn't like bad smells and rough manners, but those are both very human things - so I'm rejecting the idea that she's sees Mycah as non-human and his murder not a problem.

She's got plenty of empathy right from the start. She covers for Arya with Mordane twice - once in the sewing room, once at breakfast at Trident. When Arya turns down the carriage ride with Sansa and the queen, Sansa is lonely and desolate - so I'm rejecting also the idea that she was unmoved by Arya's three day disappearance and didn't want to help her. Sansa was introduced to the story as a normal, if a bit snobbish, little girl, and that's how we should expect her to behave. Not as some ice-hearted psychopath - because, where would that come from?

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On 11/7/2022 at 8:39 PM, Mourning Star said:

I assume that people have already read the text being discussed.

I certainly hope so, or you'll be spreading confusion everywhere.

On 11/7/2022 at 8:39 PM, Mourning Star said:

This is objectively untue:

That's Joff's stated aim was to keep Sansa safe from the (then hidden) fighters. 

"I want to see what it is." Joffrey turned his horse in the direction of the sounds, and Sansa had no choice but to follow. The noises grew louder and more distinct, the clack of wood on wood, and as they grew closer they heard heavy breathing as well, and now and then a grunt.
"Someone's there," Sansa said anxiously. She found herself thinking of Lady, wishing the direwolf was with her.
"You're safe with me." Joffrey drew his Lion's Tooth from its sheath. The sound of steel on leather made her tremble. "This way," he said, riding through a stand of trees.

You're splitting hairs here. If a person says, "You're safe with me", that absolutely does imply an intention to keep you safe. If you disagree, that's fine, but it's not fan-fic. Secondly, if your complaint is that Joff's gallantry is fake and not his 'real' motive, that is also fine, but has nothing to do with my original post, which is a list of all the actual events that would sway sympathy towards Joffrey if Sansa reported them in the court scene. "You're safe with me"  is one of those things, no matter what interpretation you put on it.

On 11/7/2022 at 8:39 PM, Mourning Star said:

What you wrote was fanfiction, one could go through it point by point but why bother, as you said anyone can read the text and see the clearly dishonest portrayal of events.

We don't have to go through every point. One is enough to overturn your accusation that my post was only worthless fan-fic. Arya attacked Joff from behind. This is true, therefore your accusation is wrong.

The other points are true too.

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1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

She has empathy to an extent. She felt sorry for Dontos. But that good side of her do not override the selfish part. It is that last trait which make me believe she is capable of poisoning Sweetrobin. 

She was just a priviliged little girl and even then she had empathy, even before Eddard was killed she was capable of it, now that she's suffered much, she's growing, though slowly.

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2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I certainly hope so, or you'll be spreading confusion everywhere.

I don't think I am, but that's ok, we can disagree.

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

You're splitting hairs here. If a person says, "You're safe with me", that absolutely does imply an intention to keep you safe. If you disagree, that's fine, but it's not fan-fic. Secondly, if your complaint is that Joff's gallantry is fake and not his 'real' motive, that is also fine, but has nothing to do with my original post, which is a list of all the actual events that would sway sympathy towards Joffrey if Sansa reported them in the court scene. "You're safe with me"  is one of those things, no matter what interpretation you put on it.

Joff's "aim" in investigating the sounds and assaulting Mycah was not to protect Sansa, that's a dishonest description of events. 

Sansa didn't put it this way, this account was never given by her.

This is why it's fanfiction.

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

We don't have to go through every point. One is enough to overturn your accusation that my post was only worthless fan-fic. Arya attacked Joff from behind. This is true, therefore your accusation is wrong.

The other points are true too.

I am certainly being a little dramatic by calling it fan fiction, but a dishonest hypothetical account that did not appear in the story fits the bill.

You clearly disagree and think it's a meaningful argument.

I think we've long since past the point of constructive debate here.

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Going by what is written in the book, what Joffrey says to Sansa, it definitely seems to me like his initial reason for investigating the noises was to check what they were. Obviously his motivation didn't remain the same as he decided to torment Mycah at some point. But it does seem like he initially wanted to check whether something dangerous was there, and then afterwards decided to pick on Mycah.

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On 11/9/2022 at 11:35 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

She was just a priviliged little girl and even then she had empathy, even before Eddard was killed she was capable of it, now that she's suffered much, she's growing, though slowly.

 

 

Hey Corvo.  Well, it’s fine with me if we don’t look at Sansa the way. Sansa is a very selfish person.  Emphasis on the selfish part.  I am obviously not a supporter of Sansa but she is not evil. 

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On 11/4/2022 at 1:44 PM, Mourning Star said:

What did Sansa tell Ned? What truth? It’s not clear that she defended her sister in the least.

Well, I was going to quote the text but it was already quoted before you typed this response so I wonder if there's any point.  She told Ned the night Arya disappeared, so the day of the incident.  Given the events are relayed through her pov we know exactly what she sees and given Ned calls her forward to confirm Arya's account we can also surmise what she told him.  This is not difficult to follow.

On 11/4/2022 at 6:25 PM, Mourning Star said:

No!

She could have told the truth!

Morality matters! Are we reading the same series? Lol

Morality does matter.  Telling the truth would not have saved Mycah, though it would have made some readers more sympathetic to Sansa.  The political fall-out would have been even more damaging and dangerous than it was, if it didn't cause the betrothal to be broken off or a rupture between Robert and Ned.  And I'm not sure we are reading the same series :P

On 11/6/2022 at 1:47 PM, MissM said:

She knew what happened, she was there and saw everything and chose not to say. Then goes on to blame her sister and wishing death upon her. 

Also, I think @chrisdaw is right:

In regards to the conversation about the dire wolves and the Starks the point was made (I forget by whom) that Lady was dead and Sansa still alive to which I replied that Sansa wasn't really much of a Stark anymore. IIRC (this is a little hazy), at this point GRRM kind of leaned back in his chair, smiled and said something to the effect of "A very astute observation." 

The two incidents are far apart in time.  She panics when called by Robert to tell the truth and says she doesn't remember.  This of course infuriates Arya - who knows that Sansa can but won't back her up (for whatever reason).  Later in KL she says something horrible to Arya but this is really an unpleasant sibling argument.  As a character Sansa changes a lot from after AGOT when she learns life is not a song.

I wish GRRM had not given that mysterious little comment as it tends to raise speculation about "Dark Sansa" to fever pitch.  The girl who spoke up for Dontos, a complete stranger, when Joffrey was going to have him killed for being drunk, or who empathised with Lancel after his wound, or felt sorry for Tyrion even though these two are Lannisters is still very much there.  You can see her warning Margaery about Joffrey and most germane of all, leading a near-fitting Robert Arryn over a narrow ice bridge on the descent from The Eyrie.  So much for killing him for convenience or as a path to power.

On 11/6/2022 at 7:56 PM, SeanF said:

Does it matter, if Sansa kills Sweetrobin?

It does but only if you want Sansa to be the child of Ned and Cat rather than LF's protégé.  Annoying little shit though he is, he is her cousin, an ill, lonely and vulnerable child.

On 11/7/2022 at 3:17 PM, Mourning Star said:

Not telling the truth when called upon to do so in defense of a family member is a betrayal.

It's not a trial, though.  Cersei apparently might want it to be and as we learn from Jaime in AFFC (iirc) she has already been trying to persuade him to harm or kill Arya and this represents her last chance to get some revenge - ultimately exacted on Lady. Indeed after Robert dismisses it as a children's quarrel Cersei demands "I want her punished".  But Robert does not ever consider or act as if Arya is on trial.  We see the scene from Ned's pov and he's angry that Arya is brought before Robert on Cersei's orders but he doesn't regard it as a trial.

On 11/7/2022 at 4:21 PM, Mourning Star said:

It's a fan fiction account that is not from ASoIaF.

The meaning of the post you are picking at is pretty clear: Sansa and Joffrey hear swordplay so the "hidden fighters" are an unknown danger from Sansa's pov.  Joffrey does arrogantly assure her that she is safe with him.  He does go to look over Sansa's objections but he also intends to keep her safe.  You're quibbling over Joffrey's primary motivation - to look out of curiosity - and his underlying and stated intention - to keep Sansa safe from any possible harm - because the post referenced the second underlying intention.  That is not fanfiction :blink:

On 11/7/2022 at 6:30 PM, Mourning Star said:

Sansa knows the truth, she is called on to tell the truth in defense of her sister against accusations that have already seen one person killed, and she does not tell the truth. This is a betrayal in my book, call it whatever you want.

Arya is not on trial though.  Sansa is not brought in to give testimony in the trial of Arya Stark for attacking the Crown Prince for which the penalty is death.  If those were the circumstances and she consciously withheld testimony that resulted in Arya's conviction and execution / other punishment then she would certainly be guilty of betrayal.  But those are not the circumstances. 

Also, you might want to be careful with accusing people of fanfiction when you interpret a scene in a certain way.  Tyrion is tried for Joffrey's murder.  See the difference in how the actual trial is conducted to Robert asking some children to explain what happened?

On 11/7/2022 at 6:44 PM, Mourning Star said:

Also, again, she is called on by the defense, Ned.

Huh? Ned is looking for his daughter and comes in demanding why she was brought to Robert not him once found.  He's not the defence, he's an angry parent, demanding to know why she isn't being looked after properly.  It's not a Court, no one is appointed Prosecution or Defence Counsel.......

On 11/7/2022 at 8:09 PM, Mourning Star said:

Not taking a side, especially in a situation like this, is still taking a side. Refusing to come to her sisters defense, or even just stating the truth as she knew it (which would be a defense of Arya in this case), was a betrayl imo.

Again, I'm not sure this distinction is meaningful here, this was hardly a formal court setting to begin with.

Not giving evidence means just that in a court of law.  You can read into it what you want but taking the 5th or whatever equivalent does not count as backing up or refuting anyone's testimony.

At least you are aware it's not a court or trial.

On 11/7/2022 at 8:19 PM, Mourning Star said:

A character's actions and thoughts so far in the story is what we have to work with when trying to predict the future.

But, it does seem to be in Sansa's nature to act in her self interest over loyalty to her family, at least so far. I think that's the connection here.

If only characters could have growth.  Is the Theon of ADWD the same person as the Theon of ACOK?  And naive, romance-filled 12 year-old Sansa who wanted nothing more than to marry the handsome prince and live a fairy-tale life at Court has changed a great deal since AGOT.

On 11/8/2022 at 1:45 PM, chrisdaw said:

She is making him temporarily more pliant to the detriment of his long term health, as has been explained to her, which is the purpose of the storyline.

How many times and how much control does she have over this?  She's at most a pawn of LF who is trying to rope her in and so taint her by unwitting involvement.

On 11/8/2022 at 7:30 PM, GMantis said:

Not really. What was explained to her was that Sweetrobin could be given two more doses as long as he wasn't given any more in six months, so as far as Sansa knows he's not currently in danger of suffering long term effects.

This is my thought and I'm not sure how much she knows of potential dangers.

A Feast for Crows - Alayne II

"It was too soon. My lady, you do not understand. As I've told the Lord Protector, a pinch of sweetsleep will prevent the shaking, but it does not leave the flesh, and in time . . ."
"Time will not matter if his lordship has a shaking fit and falls off the mountain. If my father were here, I know he would tell you to keep Lord Robert calm at all costs."
"I try, my lady, yet his fits grow ever more violent, and his blood is so thin I dare not leech him any more. Sweetsleep . . . you are certain he was not bleeding from the nose?"
"He was sniffling," Alayne admitted, "but I saw no blood."
 
There is nothing there to suggest she is aware of any particular danger.
 
Then there's this:

A Feast for Crows - Alayne II

Then all at once she was at the bottom with Mya and her little lord, huddled beneath a twisted, rocky spire. Ahead stretched a high stone saddle, narrow and icy. Alayne could hear the wind shrieking, and feel it plucking at her cloak. She remembered this place from her ascent. It had frightened her then, and it frightened her now. "It is wider than it looks," Mya was telling Lord Robert in a cheerful voice. "A yard across, and no more than eight yards long, that's nothing."
"Nothing," Robert said. His hand was shaking.
Oh, no, Alayne thought. Please. Not here. Not now.
"It's best to lead the mules across," Mya said. "If it please my lord, I'll take mine over first, then come back for yours." Lord Robert did not answer. He was staring at the narrow saddle with his reddened eyes. "I shan't be long, my lord," Mya promised, but Alayne doubted that the boy could even hear her.
When the bastard girl led her mule out from beneath the shelter of the spire, the wind caught her in its teeth. Her cloak lifted, twisting and flapping in the air. Mya staggered, and for half a heartbeat it seemed as if she would be blown over the precipice, but somehow she regained her balance and went on.
Alayne took Robert's gloved hand in her own to stop his shaking. "Sweetrobin," she said, "I'm scared. Hold my hand, and help me get across. I know you're not afraid."
He looked at her, his pupils small dark pinpricks in eyes as big and white as eggs. "I'm not?"
"Not you. You're my winged knight, Ser Sweetrobin."
"The Winged Knight could fly," Robert whispered.
"Higher than the mountains." She gave his hand a squeeze.
Lady Myranda had joined them by the spire. "He could," she echoed, when she saw what was happening.
"Ser Sweetrobin," Lord Robert said, and Alayne knew that she dare not wait for Mya to return. She helped the boy dismount, and hand in hand they walked out onto the bare stone saddle, their cloaks snapping and flapping behind them. All around was empty air and sky, the ground falling away sharply to either side. There was ice underfoot, and broken stones just waiting to turn an ankle, and the wind was howling fiercely. It sounds like a wolf, thought Sansa. A ghost wolf, big as mountains.
And then they were on the other side, and Mya Stone was laughing and lifting Robert for a hug. "Be careful," Alayne told her. "He can hurt you, flailing. You wouldn't think so, but he can." They found a place for him, a cleft in the rock to keep him out of the cold wind. Alayne tended him until the shaking passed, whilst Mya went back to help the others cross.
 
This is who Sansa is.  Interestingly, it's all Alayne's thoughts and actions until the wind is howling like a wolf and then it's very deliberately Sansa.  She knows who she is and she's still a Stark.
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I doubt Sansa will deliberately kill Robin. That is not in her character. However, she is the one copping the burden of caring for the child Lysa has created, under the aegis of Petyr who has taken on somewhat of the role of father in her mind, and would clearly get rid of Robin if it suited him. I think that there is a set up for the reader to wonder if Robin will die from a dose given by Sansa, when the Maester says he must have no more for some time. His fits and impossible behaviour will continue, she will still be there trying to cater to his moods, and if Petyr tells her to give him more she may, even though the Maester has said no more. After all, she has got used to giving it to him, it gets a result, and if that Maester is not right there on the spot to say no she could easily decide that one more couldn't hurt or just be overridden by Petyr's will. That is not the same as cold bloodedly deciding to knock him off.  And it may not happen. I think we are supposed to be wondering if it will but there could be a surprise.

 

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It's not in Petyr's interest to kill Sweetrobin - not until he's in control of Harry - and so it's not in 'Alayne's' interest either; they must both be acting ignorantly.

It is in the interest of the lords of the Vale to kill Sweetrobin, because he'd make an absolutely diabolical overlord - that's why 'Harry the Heir' is so popular.

My guess is that one of the more ruthless lords will poison SR, with the aim of fixing the crime on LF and his daughter. I like this, because it fits with the general pattern of Sansa being held guilty for things she hasn't done - fall of Ned and death of Joffrey (accused by Cersei, both times).

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Littlefinger's poisonning is, in my opinion, possibly motivated by two things: 

- He believes that Robert Arryn might be too erratic, and unlike Lysa he doesn't have a way to control him since SR doesn’t have any affection and fear him instead. 

- He may be wanting to get rid of anything that reminds him too much of the great houses that he hates so much, and of Lysa in particular for what she did to him.

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1 hour ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

- He may be wanting to get rid of anything that reminds him too much of the great houses that he hates so much, and of Lysa in particular for what she did to him.

Do you mean Catelyn in particular for what she did to him?

Not that he didn't despise and hate Lysa. Robert is quite likely his son, but I think he is so hateful that he would actually be the type to torment his own son, and since Sweetrobin is not in any way a credit to him he will have no positive feelings about probably being his father, whatsoever.

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