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Sansa is slowly killing Sweetrobin


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11 minutes ago, Castellan said:

Do you mean Catelyn in particular for what she did to him?

Not that he didn't despise and hate Lysa. Robert is quite likely his son, but I think he is so hateful that he would actually be the type to torment his own son, and since Sweetrobin is not in any way a credit to him he will have no positive feelings about probably being his father, whatsoever.

No Lysa, for sleeping with him while he wasn't in a position to consent, basically raping him. I'd be very pissed about it if I was him.

Edited by Terrorthatflapsinthenight9
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On 11/12/2022 at 12:08 PM, the trees have eyes said:

Well, I was going to quote the text but it was already quoted before you typed this response so I wonder if there's any point.  She told Ned the night Arya disappeared, so the day of the incident.  Given the events are relayed through her pov we know exactly what she sees and given Ned calls her forward to confirm Arya's account we can also surmise what she told him.  This is not difficult to follow.

So she told Ned what she says later?

"Your butcher's boy attacked the prince."

Or is that an example of her "growing"?

After all character development does not have to be for the better.

The point remains, we do not know what she told Ned. And it doesn't really matter. When called upon to defend her sister she did not.

On 11/12/2022 at 12:08 PM, the trees have eyes said:

As a character Sansa changes a lot from after AGOT when she learns life is not a song.

Did she change for the better though? I'm not so sure.

I also think you are kind of skipping over the irony that what we are reading here is literally the Song of Ice and Fire. So Sansa's story, could literally be described as a song.

The lesson isn't that there is nothing to take from songs and stories, or that there is no truth in them.

However her story unfolds, she still has a lot of growing up to do.

I could easily see her becoming ruthless and practical because of some misguided notion that "life isn't a song". Or I could see her remember the lessons of her songs and stories and Stark upbringing before it's too late.

On 11/12/2022 at 12:08 PM, the trees have eyes said:

It's not a trial, though.

Right... It's wrong to lie and not come to the defense of a sibling inside or outside of a formal trial setting.

The whole type of trial discussion was in response to someone else. As I said, this is not a formal trial, and that isn't relevant to the morality of the situation anyway.

She is asked to tell the truth in defense of her family and she chooses not to, the result is the death of her wolf.

It's possible she grows into a better person, but I haven't seen much evidence of that yet. Helping Dontos was probably her most "good" moral action, but I could see how the result might be taken by her character as a lesson against showing mercy (which I have to believe is not a "good" lesson, nor the point of this story).

As I said before, I think her story could still go either way.

Edited by Mourning Star
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On 11/14/2022 at 4:34 PM, Mourning Star said:

So she told Ned what she says later?

"Your butcher's boy attacked the prince."

Or is that an example of her "growing"?

She told Ned what happened.  He calls her forward to repeat that.  This is pretty straightforward.

The second line is from a sibling argument between Arya and Sansa later on at KL in AGOT when Sansa is still a fairly dislikeable 11 year old with her head in the clouds.  She is still prepared to brush away unpleasant realities about Joffrey and Cersei at this stage and she and Arya are at war so it is both part of her recasting events at The Trident into a more comfortable form and deliberately being nasty to Arya.

Quite obviously her growth doesn't begin until after Ned's death when she finally sees Joffrey and Cersei as they are and all her dreams turn to dust and she really begins to see the world and people around her as they are.  It's not an instant switch and she doesn't become a genius or an adult overnight but her naivety and self-centredness disappear swiftly.  You have plenty of Sansa povs in the following books to see this.

On 11/14/2022 at 4:34 PM, Mourning Star said:

Did she change for the better though? I'm not so sure.

The Sansa of AGOT does not show empathy for anyone, not because she is horrible but because she is a self-centred and entitled child of privilege.  All that disappears and we see repeated empathy for those around her as well as horror at Joffrey and Cersei's behaviour. 

I would have thought helping Robert Arryn across the narrow ice bridge alone would be an obvious example of this.

On 11/14/2022 at 4:34 PM, Mourning Star said:

I also think you are kind of skipping over the irony that what we are reading here is literally the Song of Ice and Fire. So Sansa's story, could literally be described as a song.

The idea of song works on multiple levels.  Most obviously for Sansa it is her fondness for chivalrous ballads that give her a romantic view of the world.  She sees the world thought a filter of song - see her comment to LF about why Ned should have sent Loras rather than Beric after Gregor Clegane - and believes she is living in her own romantic Disney drama with a fairy-tale marriage to the handsome Prince and a life of wonder at Court ahead of her.  Until it all comes crashing down when reality intrudes. It's a key moment in her character development.

The Sansa of ADWD doesn't want to be in a fairy-tale, she just wants to survive and for someone to marry her for herself not for her claim.  She is still a prisoner, and still a child, so how it goes is to be determined but saying she hasn't grown or changed since early AGOT is an odd assessment of her story.

On 11/14/2022 at 4:34 PM, Mourning Star said:

She is asked to tell the truth in defense of her family and she chooses not to, the result is the death of her wolf.

I don't think so.  Cersei wanted blood for Joffrey's injury: she wanted Jaime or Robert to punish Arya; she would certainly have demanded Nymeria's death and this is why Jory and Arya drove her away; Lady is the only target she can reach and Robert is too weak to stand up to her over it.

 

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20 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Sansa is riding Littlefinger's plot to glory. She sees him and Harry as the only path to high social status and power.  She will make Sweetrobin pay the price.  

Evidence please. Any shred of evidence that Sansa wants this at all? Let alone that she sees him & Harry as the only path to high social status? She could have had high social status married to Tyrion, as the Lady of Winterfell if that's what she wanted right? She wanted Willas & puppies. I swear, sometimes I think I'm reading a different series than others. 

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3 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

And lemon cakes.  Some people will never forgive her for this.

I know. It's crazy to me. She is a child who has been put through a very traumatic experience. Not an adult that is aiming for high status & control, willing to step on anyone to get it. That's Petyr. 

Of course she has made mistakes, every character in the series, as well as every person on the Earth has made them also. I understand some of her mistakes led to innocent deaths but she killed no one. She lied by omission - said she didn't remember on one occasion & went to her Queen & future mother-in-law with some information she shouldn't have. She did not want Lady or her father & his men killed, she did not want to be a prisoner of the crown. This was not her intention. I'm sure she learned this lesson & won't make the same mistakes again. 

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7 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

She's doing more than that.  She's over dosing him with dangerous sedatives.  Robert Arryn needs an adult to protect him from Petyr Baelish and Sansa Stark.  

Colemon is dosing him, on Petyr's orders.  Sansa was involved, with any knowledge of danger, only once, and that time to prevent him from falling off a mountain.  Colemon never warned Sansa before, because Sansa is not really involved or in charge.  She is hearing it for the first time, and she points out, correctly from her perspective, that it is an odd time to raise the objection.

You are assuming she won't remember the warning once Robert is safely off the mountain.  Why?  How does Sansa trying to save Robert's life prove that Sansa does not care about Robert's life?

Edited by Gilbert Green
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Its odd.  A Lord Protector conspires with a Maester to slowly poison a child, and people want to blame another child, merely because that other child does not leap to thoughts of murder at the sign of the first clue.

The significance of Sansa's argument with Colemon is that it induced Colemon to blurt out things that otherwise would have been kept entirely between Coleman and Littlefinger.

Then, as Sansa descends the mountain, the wolf within her starts to awaken.  Sweetrobin does not do so bad either, marching on his own feet across the gap that paralyzed Catelyn.

Then, at the end of the chapter, LF reveals to Sansa that he expects Robin to die, putting Colemon's clue in a new light.

I don't think this is going where you folks think.

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On 11/16/2022 at 5:02 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

She wanted Willas & puppies.

She wants Jon. She may be too afraid to admit, even to herself, but Jon is who she wants. 
Her earliest crush we know of: Waymar most famous for being Jon(well, Stark in general) look alike

Quote

"Bronze Yohn knows me," she reminded him. "He was a guest at Winterfell when his son rode north to take the black." She had fallen wildly in love with Ser Waymar, she remembered dimly, but that was a lifetime ago, when she was a stupid little girl. "And that was not the only time. Lord Royce saw . . . he saw Sansa Stark again at King's Landing, during the Hand's tourney."


The Hound’s kiss? The Hound is a “Stark”. Not an actual stark of course, but he wears white and grey, Stark colors, as well as sharing the coloring of brown hair and grey eyes. (LF also does this for a while by being a mockingbird Stark).

She wants a hero 

Quote

Frog-faced Lord Slynt sat at the end of the council table wearing a black velvet doublet and a shiny cloth-of-gold cape, nodding with approval every time the king pronounced a sentence. Sansa stared hard at his ugly face, remembering how he had thrown down her father for Ser Ilyn to behead, wishing she could hurt him, wishing that some hero would throw him down and cut off his head. But a voice inside her whispered, There are no heroes, and she remembered what Lord Petyr had said to her, here in this very hall. "Life is not a song, sweetling," he'd told her. "You may learn that one day to your sorrow." In life, the monsters win, she told herself, and now it was the Hound's voice she heard, a cold rasp, metal on stone. "Save yourself some pain, girl, and give him what he wants."

There are no heroes? You know nothing, Alayne Stone. 

Jon, as heroic as a hero from the songs Sansa love can ever be:

Quote

The smile that Lord Janos Slynt smiled then had all the sweetness of rancid butter. Until Jon said, "Edd, fetch me a block," and unsheathed Longclaw.

By the time a suitable chopping block was found, Lord Janos had retreated into the winch cage, but Iron Emmett went in after him and dragged him out. "No," Slynt cried, as Emmett half-shoved and halfpulled him across the yard. "Unhand me … you cannot … when Tywin Lannister hears of this, you will all rue—"

Emmett kicked his legs out from under him. Dolorous Edd planted a foot on his back to keep him on his knees as Emmett shoved the block beneath his head. "This will go easier if you stay still," Jon Snow promised him. "Move to avoid the cut, and you will still die, but your dying will be uglier. Stretch out your neck, my lord." The pale morning sunlight ran up and down his blade as Jon clasped the hilt of the bastard sword with both hands and raised it high. "If you have any last words, now is the time to speak them," he said, expecting one last curse.


 

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10 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

She's doing more than that.  She's over dosing him with dangerous sedatives.  Robert Arryn needs an adult to protect him from Petyr Baelish and Sansa Stark.  

He doesn't need protecting from LF and Sansa - because they have no sweetsleep, and no power to prescribe it.

SR's medication is the sole responsibility of his personal physician, a maester of the citadel. If he approves and prescribes, that's on him. Sansa might reasonably expect him to act as a safety net.

Edited by Springwatch
a/the
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On 10/29/2022 at 2:32 PM, GMantis said:

First of all, the last time Sansa gave Robert sweetsleep, it was with a maester's permission (A Feast for Crow, chapter 41: Alayne II):

Second (and following from the first) she can hardly be part of a plot to poison Robert when she learned of the plot only after administering the sweetsleep - she only learned of Littlefinger's plan after they went down from the Eyrie, where the above conversation happened.

Third, Sansa definitely doesn't want Robert to die (The Winds of Winter, sample chapter: Alayne):

So it's clear that Sansa isn't participating in any plot to kill Sweetrobin. At most you can accuse her of pretending not to notice others poisoning Sweetrobin, but there is hardly any evidence to reach such a conclusion.

No one ever gets to the end of that paragraph:

“You had best take that up with the Lord Protector.” She pushed through the door and crossed the yard. Colemon only wanted the best for his charge, Alayne knew, but what was best for Robert the boy and what was best for Lord Arryn were not always the same. Petyr had said as much, and it was true. Maester Colemon cares only for the boy, though. Father and I have larger concerns.”

It's pretty clear throughout the exchange she's doing what LF would do and the reasons for doing it override her apparent care for SR. LF wants more power (and Sansa, which she knows), but they are both defying the throne and committing treason by hiding Sansa. She is trusting LF as far as she dare because she wants to continue living without being in Cersei's tender clutches.

 

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2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

She wants Jon. She may be too afraid to admit, even to herself, but Jon is who she wants. 
Her earliest crush we know of: Waymar most famous for being Jon(well, Stark in general) look alike

 

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

She wants Jon. She may be too afraid to admit, even to herself, but Jon is who she wants. 
Her earliest crush we know of: Waymar most famous for being Jon(well, Stark in general) look alike


The Hound’s kiss? The Hound is a “Stark”. Not an actual stark of course, but he wears white and grey, Stark colors, as well as sharing the coloring of brown hair and grey eyes. (LF also does this for a while by being a mockingbird Stark).

She wants a hero 

There are no heroes? You know nothing, Alayne Stone. 

Jon, as heroic as a hero from the songs Sansa love can ever be:


 

I've danced this dance before, wasn't convinced then either but to each their own. I think its erroneous to ignore what the character is actually saying they want in favor of a very stretched (IMO) story based on possible foreshadowing. 

 

I also don't think GRRM would abandon the idea to have Arya & Jon romantically involved only to exchange her with Sansa. 

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8 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I also don't think GRRM would abandon the idea to have Arya & Jon romantically involved only to exchange her with Sansa. 

With 5 year gap scrapped, Sansa has to replace Arya for that theme to stay, and remember Tyrion was supposed to fell in love with Arya, now he's married to Sansa.

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4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

No one ever gets to the end of that paragraph:

“You had best take that up with the Lord Protector.” She pushed through the door and crossed the yard. Colemon only wanted the best for his charge, Alayne knew, but what was best for Robert the boy and what was best for Lord Arryn were not always the same. Petyr had said as much, and it was true. Maester Colemon cares only for the boy, though. Father and I have larger concerns.”

It's pretty clear throughout the exchange she's doing what LF would do and the reasons for doing it override her apparent care for SR. LF wants more power (and Sansa, which she knows), but they are both defying the throne and committing treason by hiding Sansa. She is trusting LF as far as she dare because she wants to continue living without being in Cersei's tender clutches.

Sansa is not thinking that Alayne and Pa are disloyal to Robin.  She is thinking that they ARE loyal, but based on a broader and more-complete understanding of his needs, interests and concerns.  She thinks Coleman is loyal to Robin based on his needs as a boy; and LF is loyal to Robin based on his needs as both a boy and a Lord.  She sees Colemon as something analogous to Lysa -- someone with a too-narrow idea of Robin's needs.

Sansa is wrong about LF.  LF is not loyal to Robin at all.  He is a complete traitor to Robin in every possible way.

She is, I think, wrong about Colemon too.  Colemon is not concerned about Robins needs as a boy at all.  Colemon is only concerned that if the boy dies, the crime not be traced to Colemon's hand.   That's why he gets so nervous and jittery when he is asked by Sansa to deliver such doses openly, and within her knowledge.  Meanwhile, it is probably Colemon who has been secretly administering the doses in his food without her knowledge.  And if Robin were to throw a fit and fall off a mountain, that would be a perfect solution as far as Colemon is concerned.

Colemon is not some innocent being forced to murder Robin by the wicked Sansa.  He's been secretly murdering Robin, and starts acting all guilty, when asked to openly administer a single dose for the temporary and reasonable purpose of preventing Robin from falling off a mountain.

Yes, there are supposed to be issues here with "Alayne" hiding from her true self, and attempting to avoid facing unpleasant truths.  But she is not an accomplice to a murder plot. 

Edited by Gilbert Green
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3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

With 5 year gap scrapped, Sansa has to replace Arya for that theme to stay, and remember Tyrion was supposed to fell in love with Arya, now he's married to Sansa.

Yeah, I just don't think he will go that route. I think he got rid of that theme on purpose & don't see any reason why he would add it back with Jon & Sansa, especially because there is no build up of there relationship. They have barely spoken & hardly think of each other. I could potentially see them marrying to secure Winterfell but I don't think they will ever be in love. At least I hope not :ack:

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18 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

No one ever gets to the end of that paragraph:

“You had best take that up with the Lord Protector.” She pushed through the door and crossed the yard. Colemon only wanted the best for his charge, Alayne knew, but what was best for Robert the boy and what was best for Lord Arryn were not always the same. Petyr had said as much, and it was true. Maester Colemon cares only for the boy, though. Father and I have larger concerns.”

It's pretty clear throughout the exchange she's doing what LF would do and the reasons for doing it override her apparent care for SR. LF wants more power (and Sansa, which she knows), but they are both defying the throne and committing treason by hiding Sansa. She is trusting LF as far as she dare because she wants to continue living without being in Cersei's tender clutches.

I think what Sansa is doing here is trying to act like a Lord/Lady and guard against the obviously negative impact on Robert Arryn's image among his bannermen of all the shaking fits.  Colemon is in her view acting purely like a doctor without any considerations of politics or leadership (i.e. medical establishment vs political establishment over how to respond to COVID).

You're right that she's playing along with being Alayne for self-preservation but a temporary coincidence of interests with LF doesn't make their larger concerns the same.  LF, if he is too be believed (always dubious proposition), expects Robert Arryn to die so is indifferent to his fate and is already moving onto Plan B of having Alayne marry Harry the Heir (the likely victim of an unfortunate accident) to allow him to retain his influence.  Sansa doesn't want any of that but she does want to remain safe and is as trapped as she was in KL, more so with the accusation of regicide hanging over her, so it's unclear how things will pan out.

On one side you have her faulty memory, the development of the Alayne persona, LF's active manipulation / tutelage and her natural desire for self-preservation; on the other her natural empathy, her desire to be the opposite of Cersei and her Stark values and identity.  For me the emergence of Sansa on the ice bridge with the wind howling like a wolf while she did something brave to help Robert Arryn is a subtle moment within a key scene that shows how she will act or react unconsciously at pivotal moments.

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