Sansa is slowly killing Sweetrobin

[the trees have eyes]

8 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

If a serving maid had said the same thing, Colemon would have had no choice but to realize that what the serving maid said was true.  The identity of the serving-maid's father has nothing to do with it.

An odd comparison.  A serving maid would have kept her mouth shut and would not have dared interfere.  A serving maid would not have referenced Lord Petyr's wishes to overcome the objections of the maester (her social superior).  A serving maid would have known and kept in her place.

But then, Alayne is no serving maid and does not act like one.

[StarkTullies]

10 hours ago, Roswell said:

It was something George mentioned in passing.  He said something like he will be killing more characters and many fans will be mad.  He also said Sansa will do something to disappoint the fans.

Maybe we are thinking of two different things, but what I remembered him saying is that there would be a "controversial Sansa chapter".  I looked it up right now, and the only vague information I could find is that it will be "controversial" without any details.

Sure, Sansa murdering her cousin would be controversial... not because Sansa fans would flip over backwards to defend the undefendable, but because it would be completely out of character.  The most common speculation is that it will involve sex... because a ~14-year-old girl weaponizing her sexuality against significantly older men is (and should be) controversial.  Or it could be something controversial that happens in a Sansa chapter having nothing to do with Sansa herself.  Catelyn's Red Wedding chapter was certainly controversial... but not from the actions of Catelyn herself.

George Martin doesn't need to clarify that a lot of characters will die in Winds of Wind, because... of course.  He hasn't been shy about killing off characters, and things will only get worse when "winter" finally comes.  Of course fans will get mad, because fans get mad about everything.

What is utterly bizarre to me is a sub-group of Daenerys Targaryen fans "believing" (because they want to believe) that all 4 Stark POV characters will take a sharp turn to become 1-dimensional villains and suddenly do everything that is heinous and evil.  The Starks are 4 out of the 6 main characters, and George Martin already referred to Tyrion as "the bad guy", so that would make 5 out of 6 of the main characters as villains.  Why would George Martin waste his time writing a story like that, and why would we waste our time reading it?  When (if) The Winds of Winter ever comes out, I suspect it is not the Sansa fans who will be mad.

[SeanF]

15 minutes ago, StarkTullies said:

Maybe we are thinking of two different things, but what I remembered him saying is that there would be a "controversial Sansa chapter".  I looked it up right now, and the only vague information I could find is that it will be "controversial" without any details.

Sure, Sansa murdering her cousin would be controversial... not because Sansa fans would flip over backwards to defend the undefendable, but because it would be completely out of character.  The most common speculation is that it will involve sex... because a ~14-year-old girl weaponizing her sexuality against significantly older men is (and should be) controversial.  Or it could be something controversial that happens in a Sansa chapter having nothing to do with Sansa herself.  Catelyn's Red Wedding chapter was certainly controversial... but not from the actions of Catelyn herself.

George Martin doesn't need to clarify that a lot of characters will die in Winds of Wind, because... of course.  He hasn't been shy about killing off characters, and things will only get worse when "winter" finally comes.  Of course fans will get mad, because fans get mad about everything.

What is utterly bizarre to me is a sub-group of Daenerys Targaryen fans "believing" (because they want to believe) that all 4 Stark POV characters will take a sharp turn to become 1-dimensional villains and suddenly do everything that is heinous and evil.  The Starks are 4 out of the 6 main characters, and George Martin already referred to Tyrion as "the bad guy", so that would make 5 out of 6 of the main characters as villains.  Why would George Martin waste his time writing a story like that, and why would we waste our time reading it?  When (if) The Winds of Winter ever comes out, I suspect it is not the Sansa fans who will be mad.

Sansa's killing Sweetrobin would probably enhance her popularity among the fandom.  Her having sex would probably arouse more controversy.

I don't see the Stark children as villains, one-dimensional or otherwise, but I think they will tread dark paths, like the children in A High Wind in Jamaica.

Edited December 3, 2022 by SeanF

[Moiraine Sedai]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Sansa's killing Sweetrobin would probably enhance her popularity among the fandom.  Her having sex would probably arouse more controversy.

I don't see the Stark children as villains, one-dimensional or otherwise, but I think they will tread dark paths, like the children in A High Wind in Jamaica.

Treading a dark path may apply to greys like Rickon and Sansa. The other three will become truly evil.  Jon, Arya, and Bran are gonna become villains.  

[Gilbert Green]

4 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

An odd comparison.  A serving maid would have kept her mouth shut and would not have dared interfere.  A serving maid would not have referenced Lord Petyr's wishes to overcome the objections of the maester (her social superior).  A serving maid would have known and kept in her place.

But then, Alayne is no serving maid and does not act like one.

Irrelevant.  Regardless of whether a serving maid would have spoken, if the serving maid had spoken, Colemon would have followed her suggestion.  It is the suggestion that is compelling, not the identity of the person making it.  If a little bird had said it to Colemon, the suggestion would have had the same effect.  To object that little birds cannot talk is to miss the point.  Anyhow, serving maids can talk and sometimes do.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Gilbert Green

[StarkTullies]

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

Sansa's killing Sweetrobin would probably enhance her popularity among the fandom.

Maybe.  People who already hate Sansa will use it as a (justified) reason to hate her more, but I don't think it will win her many new fans.  It would not increase my liking of her.  Robert Arryn may be annoying, but I sympathize with him for being just a little kid and raised by an over-sheltering lunatic mother, and for his sickly nature whatever the cause.  Sansa is one of my favorite characters, but she certainly won't be anymore if she intentionally murders her young cousin.

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

Her having sex would probably arouse more controversy.

Yep.  I prefer that is not it, but definitely a possibility.  I guess it depends whether the "maid slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow" refers to Sansa accidentally ripping apart Robert's doll.  That is a weird waste of a prophecy if that was her act of "giant-slaying"... but if that hasn't happened yet, she will be a maid a while longer.

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

I don't see the Stark children as villains, one-dimensional or otherwise, but I think they will tread dark paths

I agree.  I think all the main characters, Stark and otherwise, will be "tested"... and Winds of Winter will likely be the "darkest" book for many of them.  Bran and Sansa are under the influence of manipulative schemers (I think Brynden Rivers has nefarious motives for everything he does), and Arya is trapped in a death cult.  I don't think Jon has done anything remotely villainous up to this point, but I don't think his return from the dead as more "wolfish" will make him gentler or kinder (though adopting some personality traits of Ghost can't be that bad).

Edited December 3, 2022 by StarkTullies

[Springwatch]

16 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I agree with the first part, but sweetsleep is a medicinal remedy and it's use in moderation is legitimate.  No one is telling Colemon to poison Robert Arryn, they are telling him to up the morphine/ steroids to keep Robert stable and he is going along under protest because it's dangerous.

The difference between a medicine and a poison is the dosage. Because of his expertise, Colemon has a better idea of just how poisonous sweetsleep has become to Robert. That's why the buck stops with him - he alone has the training, and he alone has accepted responsibility for Robert's healthcare.

There are still mysteries, but Colemon's guilt isn't one of them.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

10 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Irrelevant.  Regardless of whether a serving maid would have spoken, if the serving maid had spoken, Colemon would have followed her suggestion.  It is the suggestion that is compelling, not the identity of the person making it.  If a little bird had said it to Colemon, the suggestion would have had the same effect.  To object that little birds cannot talk is to miss the point.  Anyhow, serving maids can talk and sometimes do.

I disagree. No serving maid is going to say this & no maester would care if they did. I'm not trying to blame anything on Sansa & she certainly isn't in the most powerful position in the Eyrie but she holds a little authority, as the daughter of LF. 

[Nevets]

23 hours ago, SeanF said:

Sansa's killing Sweetrobin would probably enhance her popularity among the fandom.  Her having sex would probably arouse more controversy.

I don't see the Stark children as villains, one-dimensional or otherwise, but I think they will tread dark paths, like the children in A High Wind in Jamaica.

I think Sansa killing Sweetrobin would anger many fans, especially those who like Sansa.  It is contrary to her nature, and she has no discernible reason to do so; most Sansa fans like her because she is basically a nice person.  Killing Robert would destroy that.

I'm not sure how controversial her using sex would be.  She is nearly 14, and kids in Westeros grow up much faster than our own world.  In her preview chapter Arya uses sex to her advantage, and that's gotten limited comment.  And she's even younger than Sansa, albeit more of a reckless hellion.

[the trees have eyes]

21 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Irrelevant.

It's really not.  I don't see why it's so hard to accept that Alayne has influence because of her status as LF's "daughter" and that Colemon has a conversation with her and follows her wishes in a way he would not otherwise do.

The position you have taken is only necessary if you argue Robert is being deliberately poisoned and are determined to blame Colemon and defend Sansa.  As I don't think he's being deliberately poisoned by either Colemon or Sansa I don't have this constraint and can say that 1) Colemon is prescribing medicine but is concerned about the frequency of the dose but is being influenced by LF (and Sansa ONCE) and 2) Sansa has an ambiguity about her thoughts in the Alayne persona, deliberately created by GRRM, but I do not believe she will harm Robert knowingly.

The only person who wants Robert Arryn out of the way is LF and not until he has secured another means of holding on to power.

17 hours ago, Springwatch said:

There are still mysteries, but Colemon's guilt isn't one of them.

Guilt as to what?  Jeopardising Robert's long term health?  Possibly but Robert is given to fits and is sickly so his long term health is poor.  If he continues to administer doses beyond what is safe that result in lasting harm or fatality then absolutely, yes, he will be guilty.  But of medical malpractice or murder?

Medicines do come with risks - any prescription medicine will summarise them.  The amount of medicine / the dosage and frequency of treatment depend on the individual, there is always judgment involved however much people like to think of these issues as black and white.

Also, a maester is not a physician in out sense - the links they forge in their chain at The Citadel cover many areas - and Colemon advises on politics as much as provides medical services.  He advises / serves the Lord of The Vale and does not have final say over Robert's treatment.  Even in our system medical experts advise governments who make policy (e.g. the debate over COVID lockdowns).  If LF pressures him to administer hemlock and he does then he's guilty.  But if LF pressures him to administer slightly more swseetsleep than he thinks safe it becomes a judgment call. 

Edited December 4, 2022 by the trees have eyes
typo

[Gilbert Green]

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

It's really not.  I don't see why it's so hard to accept that Alayne has influence because of her status as LF's "daughter" and that Colemon has a conversation with her and follows her wishes in a way he would not otherwise do.

My position is that she has no authority.  "Influence" is a broader term, and depends on time place and circumstance.  Will I conceded that time place and circumstance have given her an opportunity to "influence" him?  Sure.  And reminding him that it would be a bad thing if sweetrobin had a seizure and fell off a mountain is an example of such influence.  But this does not depend on her authority -- she has none.  Nor, at least in this case, does it depend on her status as LF's daughter.  It depend merely on the fact that everything she says is obviously true, and Colemon has no counterargument.

But I can think of one reason why he might refuse her suggestion.  And that is because he has already given Sweetrobin a dose.  Not three days ago, like he pretends, but that same morning.  And not for the innocent motives suggested by Sansa either.  See the "something vile" quotes I provided earlier in this thread. 

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

The position you have taken is only necessary if you argue Robert is being deliberately poisoned and are determined to blame Colemon and defend Sansa. 

I think Colemon is deliberately slow-poisoning him on LF's orders.  I recognize it is only a theory, like Frey pies.  But I thought it was the premise of this thread.  And, except for the "blame Sansa" part, I happen to agree with it.

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

As I don't think he's being deliberately poisoned by either Colemon or Sansa I don't have this constraint and can say that 1) Colemon is prescribing medicine but is concerned about the frequency of the dose but is being influenced by LF (and Sansa ONCE) and 2) Sansa has an ambiguity about her thoughts in the Alayne persona, deliberately created by GRRM, but I do not believe she will harm Robert knowingly.

Agree with all except Colemon's innocence.    You never answered my question about the "something vile" that Colemon is secretly administering in Sweetrobin's drink.  See my quotes posted above.

Colemon publicly protests against weak doses while he secretly administers strong ones.

Edited December 4, 2022 by Gilbert Green

[SeanF]

6 hours ago, Nevets said:

I think Sansa killing Sweetrobin would anger many fans, especially those who like Sansa.  It is contrary to her nature, and she has no discernible reason to do so; most Sansa fans like her because she is basically a nice person.  Killing Robert would destroy that.

I'm not sure how controversial her using sex would be.  She is nearly 14, and kids in Westeros grow up much faster than our own world.  In her preview chapter Arya uses sex to her advantage, and that's gotten limited comment.  And she's even younger than Sansa, albeit more of a reckless hellion.

But, Sweetrobin is horrid.

[Nevets]

13 minutes ago, SeanF said:

But, Sweetrobin is horrid.

So?  He's an eight-year-old spoiled brat.  "Horrid" goes with the terrain.  There is hope though; he seems to be improving under Sansa's influence.

[Nathan Stark]

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

But, Sweetrobin is horrid.

Sure, the kid is a little shit. Honestly, so was Sansa when we first met her. They are/were both little shits for different, but still unsurprising reasons. Sweetrobin was sickly, and overly sheltered by his mother, who had her own mental health issues that exacerbated Sweetrobin's problems. Kid's like, six? Seven? And Sansa is honestly a much better influence on the child precisely because she isn't overprotective. If Sansa murdered Sweetrobin, I wouldn't be cheering and whooping. I would feel sickened, angry and betrayed.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

12 hours ago, Nevets said:

I think Sansa killing Sweetrobin would anger many fans, especially those who like Sansa.  It is contrary to her nature, and she has no discernible reason to do so; most Sansa fans like her because she is basically a nice person.  Killing Robert would destroy that.

I'm not sure how controversial her using sex would be.  She is nearly 14, and kids in Westeros grow up much faster than our own world.  In her preview chapter Arya uses sex to her advantage, and that's gotten limited comment.  And she's even younger than Sansa, albeit more of a reckless hellion.

Contrary only because Sansa is neither brave nor bold.  But if Petyr dangles a sweet prize.  She could work up the courage to murder her little cousin. 

[Nathan Stark]

5 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

My position is that she has no authority.  "Influence" is a broader term, and depends on time place and circumstance.  Will I conceded that time place and circumstance have given her an opportunity to "influence" him?  Sure.  And reminding him that it would be a bad thing if sweetrobin had a seizure and fell off a mountain is an example of such influence.  But this does not depend on her authority -- she has none.  Nor, at least in this case, does it depend on her status as LF's daughter.  It depend merely on the fact that everything she says is obviously true, and Colemon has no counterargument.

But I can think of one reason why he might refuse her suggestion.  And that is because he has already given Sweetrobin a dose.  Not three days ago, like he pretends, but that same morning.  And not for the innocent motives suggested by Sansa either.  See the "something vile" quotes I provided earlier in this thread. 

I think Colemon is deliberately slow-poisoning him on LF's orders.  I recognize it is only a theory, like Frey pies.  But I thought it was the premise of this thread.  And, except for the "blame Sansa" part, I happen to agree with it.

Agree with all except Colemon's innocence.    You never answered my question about the "something vile" that Colemon is secretly administering in Sweetrobin's drink.  See my quotes posted above.

Colemon publicly protests against weak doses while he secretly administers strong ones.

On my first comment on this this thread, I allowed that Sansa was likely poisoning Sweetrobin. Not intentionally out of malice, but out of a practical political desire to protect his image as a healthy, strong Lord, which itself goes a long way towards assuring the child's longevity. After reading your comments, and taking a few days to reflect on the matters discussed, I think you have the right of it. It's odd that I didn't look askance at Maester Coleman before now, but the evidence you provide for Coleman's own treachery is pretty hard to dismiss. I think the larger discussion over whether Sansa has "authority" or "influence" over Coleman misses the point, which is that Coleman knew about sweetsleep's effects on Robin and carried on dosing him anyway. No matter how one slices it, Coleman knows more about the drug than Sansa does, and she is simply trusting his good intentions regarding Robin's health. Sansa's "authority" or lack thereof does not change the fact that Coleman was giving unhealthy doses of sweetsleep to Robin that Sansa had no reason to know about.

All in all, your position is well argued and convincing.

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 12/1/2022 at 12:25 PM, Springwatch said:

Sansa does not have authority over Colemon, that's absurd. He's a maester, she's a child. Besides, his sworn loyalty is to his Lord Robert Arryn; even a regent can't override that - certainly not to the extent of poisoning him.

Nor do we see LF threatening Colemon. If Colemon has been got at (and he is super nervy) - it could be someone else. With a better motive.

Yet he does "poison" him on the implied threat of Sansa

[the trees have eyes]

On 12/4/2022 at 5:05 PM, Gilbert Green said:

I think Colemon is deliberately slow-poisoning him on LF's orders.

If this is the case then the whole scene with Alayne telling Colemon to give him sweetsleep because her Lord Father would want it and him objecting doesn't work.  He would simply say LF had foreseen the problem of getting Robert down the mountain and he had already administered a dose on LF's orders.

Maesters control the ravens.  I do think Colemon is weak but if he was ordered by LF to do this he could send a bird to KL - or more likely every Arryn loyalist in The Vale - and then LF is toast.  Also, LF is more careful than to implicate himself like this.

But what is Colemon's motive for wishing Robert dead?  Plus he is making himself an accessory to murder and the holder of a dangerous secret that would likely see him killed in short order to protect it.

On 12/4/2022 at 5:05 PM, Gilbert Green said:

You never answered my question about the "something vile" that Colemon is secretly administering in Sweetrobin's drink.  See my quotes posted above.

Could be vitamin supplements or anything.  Health supplements and a lot of medicines are known to taste odd and children to complain that medicine tastes horrid. 

Don't forget that Lysa was still breast feeding Robert until recently (we saw that in Catelyn's visit to The Eyrie in AGOT) so any milk he is now provided with will taste different or odd or "vile".

[The Gizzard of Oz]

Petyr is the master mind behind all of it.  He's smart enough to convince Sansa to murder that boy.  

[Gilbert Green]

On 12/6/2022 at 6:52 AM, the trees have eyes said:

If this is the case then the whole scene with Alayne telling Colemon to give him sweetsleep because her Lord Father would want it and him objecting doesn't work.  He would simply say LF had foreseen the problem of getting Robert down the mountain and he had already administered a dose on LF's orders.

Colemon is neither a quick thinker nor a smooth talker.  And he is obviously very nervous about something.  And he almost DOES blurt out what it was that he gave Sweetrobin.  Then he thinks better of it and stops himself.

On 12/6/2022 at 6:52 AM, the trees have eyes said:

Maesters control the ravens.  I do think Colemon is weak but if he was ordered by LF to do this he could send a bird to KL - or more likely every Arryn loyalist in The Vale - and then LF is toast.  Also, LF is more careful than to implicate himself like this.

LF has already implicated himself by ordering doses, and arguing with Colemon about the dangers.   You are essentially saying LF would never do what we know he has done.

There is no need for LF to suddenly say "my man Colemon, let's slow-murder Sweetrobin".   And by the time Colemon puts 1 and 1 and 1 and 1 together, he's already an accomplice.

On 12/6/2022 at 6:52 AM, the trees have eyes said:

But what is Colemon's motive for wishing Robert dead?  Plus he is making himself an accessory to murder and the holder of a dangerous secret that would likely see him killed in short order to protect it.

Colemon is a weak man, who wants to follow orders and avoid trouble.  The situation probably developed slowly with every new dose making him more and more guilty.  He's like a frog in a pot being slowly heated.

On 12/6/2022 at 6:52 AM, the trees have eyes said:

Could be vitamin supplements or anything.  Health supplements and a lot of medicines are known to taste odd and children to complain that medicine tastes horrid. 

Vitamins would be anachronism, but never mind.  I get the idea.  My answer is this:  If it was only vitamins, he would have said "I only gave him vitamins".  Instead he says "I only..." then stops himself, and suddenly asks about nosebleeds.  And he seems to also associate nosebleeds with sweetsleep poisoning.

And you can hardly be serious.  Would GRRM really tease a mystery like this, and have the solution be "health supplements"?