Sansa is slowly killing Sweetrobin

[Universal Sword Donor]

18 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Sansa is not thinking that Alayne and Pa are disloyal to Robin.  She is thinking that they ARE loyal, but based on a broader and more-complete understanding of his needs, interests and concerns.  She thinks Coleman is loyal to Robin based on his needs as a boy; and LF is loyal to Robin based on his needs as both a boy and a Lord.  She sees Colemon as something analogous to Lysa -- someone with a too-narrow idea of Robin's needs.

Sansa is wrong about LF.  LF is not loyal to Robin at all.  He is a complete traitor to Robin in every possible way.

She is, I think, wrong about Colemon too.  Colemon is not concerned about Robins needs as a boy at all.  Colemon is only concerned that if the boy dies, the crime not be traced to Colemon's hand.   That's why he gets so nervous and jittery when he is asked by Sansa to deliver such doses openly, and within her knowledge.  Meanwhile, it is probably Colemon who has been secretly administering the doses in his food without her knowledge.  And if Robin were to throw a fit and fall off a mountain, that would be a perfect solution as far as Colemon is concerned.

Colemon is not some innocent being forced to murder Robin by the wicked Sansa.  He's been secretly murdering Robin, and starts acting all guilty, when asked to openly administer a single dose for the temporary and reasonable purpose of preventing Robin from falling off a mountain.

Yes, there are supposed to be issues here with "Alayne" hiding from her true self, and attempting to avoid facing unpleasant truths.  But she is not an accomplice to a murder plot. 

LF needs the boy alive long enough for Sansa and Harry to marry. That much is clear and he retains absolutely no power if he is removed as regent and protector of the vale, which would make him and Sansa vulnerable to the crown, and is specifically why he asked for a year to set things to right. So whether or not he's disloyal, Sansa is dead on about LF and her having larger concerns.

As to Colemon, there's no proof other than weak supposition and worse conjecture I've seen.

 

[Gilbert Green]

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

LF needs the boy alive long enough for Sansa and Harry to marry. That much is clear and he retains absolutely no power if he is removed as regent and protector of the vale, which would make him and Sansa vulnerable to the crown, and is specifically why he asked for a year to set things to right. So whether or not he's disloyal, Sansa is dead on about LF and her having larger concerns.

As to Colemon, there's no proof other than weak supposition and worse conjecture I've seen.

It's a slow-poisoning scheme.  Colemon, not LF, is the one who I said would probably be relieved if Robyn fell off a mountain.

Are we no longer talking about what Sansa meant by the words?  You removed the context provided by Sansa, and provided your own.  Even so, the larger concerns you mention do not conflict with Robin's wellbeing.  All you have done is provide an additional selfish reason why Sansa might want Robin alive, while suggesting no reason why she might ever want him dead.

Except for "alive long enough for Sansa and Harry to marry" part.  But Sansa is completely unaware of this particular "larger concern".   She does not even know that Harry is Robin's heir when she talks of "larger concerns."

As for their being "no proof" against Coleman, I guess that's true.  But If we remove the clues that involve Colemon you could say the same about LF.  So what exactly is your position here.  That nobody is slow-poisoning Robin with sweetsleep?  Maybe you're right.  Might as well end the thread, then.

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

It's a slow-poisoning scheme.  Colemon, not LF, is the one who I said would probably be relieved if Robyn fell off a mountain.

Are we no longer talking about what Sansa meant by the words?  You removed the context provided by Sansa, and provided your own.  Even so, the larger concerns you mention do not conflict with Robin's wellbeing.  All you have done is provide an additional selfish reason why Sansa might want Robin alive, while suggesting no reason why she might ever want him dead.

Except for "alive long enough for Sansa and Harry to marry" part.  But Sansa is completely unaware of this particular "larger concern".   She does not even know that Harry is Robin's heir when she talks of "larger concerns."

As for their being "no proof" against Coleman, I guess that's true.  But If we remove the clues that involve Colemon you could say the same about LF.  So what exactly is your position here.  That nobody is slow-poisoning Robin with sweetsleep?  Maybe you're right.  Might as well end the thread, then.

There's literally no support for Colemon purposely poisoning SR. There is plenty of direct and circumstantial that LF is indifferent or worse to poisoning SR. 

[Gilbert Green]

54 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

There's literally no support for Colemon purposely poisoning SR. There is plenty of direct and circumstantial that LF is indifferent or worse to poisoning SR. 

Do you think LF is administering the doses himself?  Or is he telling Colemon to do it?  Is your defense of Colemon that he is just following orders?  Is this some hyper-narrow idea of "purpose"?  Or do you suppose that Colemon, of all people, does not see the implications of his own actions?

There is some evidence that Colemon continues to administer doses to Robyn, on LF's orders, AFTER he gets safely down the mountain, and AFTER his warnings to Sansa that he says he previously discussed with LF.  And Sansa is apparently not involved in that at all.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Gilbert Green

[Universal Sword Donor]

41 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Do you think LF is administering the doses himself?  Or is he telling Colemon to do it?  Is your defense of Colemon that he is just following orders?  Is this some hyper-narrow idea of "purpose"?  Or do you suppose that Colemon, of all people, does not see the implications of his own actions?

There is some evidence that Colemon continues to administer doses to Robyn, on LF's orders, AFTER he gets safely down the mountain, and AFTER his warnings to Sansa that he says he previously discussed with LF.  And Sansa is apparently not involved in that at all.

LF (and Sansa) literally tell him to do it directly despite his strenuous objections. His adherence to their demands is to be expected when LF is the lord of the castle and the most powerful person in the Vale.

And there's no evidence Colemon is administering it still after the last mention. 

Spoiler

Even in the WoW excerpt he is still suffering from shaking fits so badly Sansa has to soothe and baby him so he falls asleep

 

[Gilbert Green]

2 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

LF (and Sansa) literally tell him to do it directly despite his strenuous objections.

Sansa pressured Colemon only once, and only to save Robin's life.  Nor did she appeal to her own authority.  She has none.  If Robin dies of sweetsleep poisoning, it won't be because of this one time, but because of all the doses before or afterwards.   And if anyone has the power to pressure Maester Colemon to murder the Lord he is sworn to serve, it is Littlefinger, and not some 13 year old girl.

2 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

His adherence to their demands is to be expected when LF is the lord of the castle and the most powerful person in the Vale.

Expected or not, if Robin dies because of their actions, Colemon and LF will both be murderers.  Not Sansa.

2 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

And there's no evidence Colemon is administering it still after the last mention.

Well, now you are shifting to the argument that, really, nobody is murdering Sweetrobin by slow poison at all.  Which is only all the more reason why you certainly cannot blame Sansa.

I skip the discussion of WINDS as I don't know how to do the hide contents trick.  But I don't agree.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Gilbert Green

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

Sansa will poison the little lord.  Myranda looks suspicious of Sansa. She will suspect Sansa of murder.  It will lead to Sansa's trial for murdering Lord Robert Arryn. Sansa gets the moon door exit. 

[Loose Bolt]

5 minutes ago, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

Sansa will poison the little lord.  Myranda looks suspicious of Sansa. She will suspect Sansa of murder.  It will lead to Sansa's trial for murdering Lord Robert Arryn. Sansa gets the moon door exit. 

That is very unlikely considering that nobody has access to Moon Door b4 next spring. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

16 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Sansa pressured Colemon only once, and only to save Robin's life.  Nor did she appeal to her own authority.  She has none.  If Robin dies of sweetsleep poisoning, it won't be because of this one time, but because of all the doses before or afterwards.   And if anyone has the power to pressure Maester Colemon to murder the Lord he is sworn to serve, it is Littlefinger, and not some 13 year old girl.

Colemon literally "poisons" SR at Sansa's direction, albeit due to her position of influence with LF, so that's just directly contradicted by the text.

16 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Expected or not, if Robin dies because of their actions, Colemon and LF will both be murderers.  Not Sansa.

Sansa is already complicit, as shown by her POV internal monologue.

16 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Well, now you are shifting to the argument that, really, nobody is murdering Sweetrobin by slow poison at all.  Which is only all the more reason why you certainly cannot blame Sansa.

I'm not shifting the argument one iota. I am saying that in the sample chapter there is evidence that supports my position. There's nothing after the Gates of the moon reception feast in AFFC

16 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

I skip the discussion of WINDS as I don't know how to do the hide contents trick.  But I don't agree.

It's the eyeball button in the formatting section, but that's fine not to agree. However there's literally nothing from AFFC post feast or WoW to support your position.

[Springwatch]

3 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Colemon literally "poisons" SR at Sansa's direction, albeit due to her position of influence with LF

Sansa does not have authority over Colemon, that's absurd. He's a maester, she's a child. Besides, his sworn loyalty is to his Lord Robert Arryn; even a regent can't override that - certainly not to the extent of poisoning him.

Nor do we see LF threatening Colemon. If Colemon has been got at (and he is super nervy) - it could be someone else. With a better motive.

[Gilbert Green]

5 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Colemon literally "poisons" SR at Sansa's direction, albeit due to her position of influence with LF, so that's just directly contradicted by the text.

It depends on what you mean by poisoned.  All drugs are poisons, but that does not make every doctor an attempted murderer.  Coleman literally doses LF to protect his life, this one time.  Or so we assume (we don't actually see Robin take the dose).  Sweetsleep is a medicine.  That's why maesters have it.

The reason he doses him is because it would be a bad thing (yes even from LF's POV) if Robin were to have a seizure and fall off the mountain.   

Sweetsleep does not become a deadly poison because of this one dose to save his life.  It becomes a deadly poison, potentially, because of all the doses before and afterwards.

5 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Sansa is already complicit, as shown by her POV internal monologue.

Her words show she wants to save his life.  Her internal monologue shows that she she is loyal to his broader interests as both boy and Lord.  So whatever she is "complicit" in, it cannot be murder or attempted murder.

5 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I'm not shifting the argument one iota. I am saying that in the sample chapter there is evidence that supports my position.

And your position is what exactly?  Are you accusing her of murder, or medical negligence?

5 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

There's nothing after the Gates of the moon reception feast in AFFC

It's the eyeball button in the formatting section, but that's fine not to agree. However there's literally nothing from AFFC post feast or WoW to support your position.

Spoiler

Sansa believes Colemon is continuing to dose Robin, after he gets down the mountain in AFFC.  From the Sample Chapter:  "Maester Colemon would have made certain he drank a strong dose of sweetmilk before the feast ..."

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Gilbert Green

[Bowen 747]

On 10/29/2022 at 10:41 AM, Kierria said:

Sweetrobin is slowly being poisoned.  It is not yet a crime of murder because the child is still alive but Sansa is part of the insidious plot to murder the child and take all that is his.  Will Sansa go through with the murder?  The odds are close to even but does lean lightly to Sansa doing the crime. 

Look back on Sansa's past and tell me what you think.  Tell me what you think will happen. 

He is being poisoned slowly but Sansa might just smother him with a pillow.  He's physically weak and small enough for even Sansa to dispatch with ease.  It could happen and more likely than not it will be Sansa doing it. 

[the trees have eyes]

17 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Sansa does not have authority over Colemon, that's absurd. He's a maester, she's a child. Besides, his sworn loyalty is to his Lord Robert Arryn; even a regent can't override that - certainly not to the extent of poisoning him.

Nor do we see LF threatening Colemon. If Colemon has been got at (and he is super nervy) - it could be someone else. With a better motive.

Colemon is a fairly weak character and quite realistic for it.  Not everyone can stand up to authority on points of principle and we are looking at a hierarchical society.  There is a justifiable reason for LF to have Colemon administer sweetsleep to Robert so, despite his warnings about repeated doses being dangerous, there is no reason for him to suspect malicious intentions on LF's part (indeed LF needs Robert alive to exercise authority in his name).

Colemon serves The Lord of The Eyrie which, with Robert a minor, means counselling but also obeying Lord Protector Petyr Baelish.  Alayne, as the "daughter" of the Lord Protector, doesn't need an official position to influence Colemon, she has considerable clout, if only by threatening to tell LF that Colemon is disobeying him or not taking care of Lord Robert's image with his bannermen.  It's like the boss's child being an intern - ignoring them when they speak in their parent's name could make your life very difficult.

[Springwatch]

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Colemon is a fairly weak character and quite realistic for it.  Not everyone can stand up to authority on points of principle and we are looking at a hierarchical society. 

So he is. That's not enough reason to scoop the responsibility off Colemon and dump it onto Sansa. There's something weird about these books, that it's easier to let off Colemon for being weak and afraid than Sansa herself (Petyr is a killer after all - has twice murdered his pawns in front of her eyes).

It's just something that's been bugging me lately, since all the Jaime/Cersei discussions. Cersei gets the blame for Jaime's evil-doings . Sansa gets the blame for Cersei's and Joffrey's. Cat gets the blame for the five kings and their little war. Mirri gets the blame for both Drogo and Dany disobeying her clear instructions. But there's no strong basis for any of it. Just something in the writing.

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

There is a justifiable reason for LF to have Colemon administer sweetsleep to Robert so, despite his warnings about repeated doses being dangerous, there is no reason for him to suspect malicious intentions on LF's part (indeed LF needs Robert alive to exercise authority in his name).

Colemon serves The Lord of The Eyrie which, with Robert a minor, means counselling but also obeying Lord Protector Petyr Baelish.  Alayne, as the "daughter" of the Lord Protector, doesn't need an official position to influence Colemon, she has considerable clout, if only by threatening to tell LF that Colemon is disobeying him or not taking care of Lord Robert's image with his bannermen.  It's like the boss's child being an intern - ignoring them when they speak in their parent's name could make your life very difficult.

If the intern was telling you to poison the firm's owner, so her parent/your boss could steal it - you would say no. Everyone would say no. It's not a marginal decision.

[Craving Peaches]

26 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Cat gets the blame for the five kings and their little war.

That's a bit silly because even if she hadn't captured Tyrion war was still likely to break out given that Ned would insist on telling Robert about the incest and Cersei, Tywin and co. were never going to take it lying down. Cersei was going to kill Robert anyway because Ned was going to reveal the secret. All Tyrion's capture did was give Tywin an excuse to start raiding early. Catelyn is one of the characters that is most against war. Tywin, Stannis and Ned were all already prepping for war before Tyrion was captured.

[Gilbert Green]

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Colemon is a fairly weak character and quite realistic for it.  Not everyone can stand up to authority on points of principle and we are looking at a hierarchical society.  There is a justifiable reason for LF to have Colemon administer sweetsleep to Robert so, despite his warnings about repeated doses being dangerous, there is no reason for him to suspect malicious intentions on LF's part (indeed LF needs Robert alive to exercise authority in his name).

Colemon serves The Lord of The Eyrie which, with Robert a minor, means counselling but also obeying Lord Protector Petyr Baelish.  Alayne, as the "daughter" of the Lord Protector, doesn't need an official position to influence Colemon, she has considerable clout, if only by threatening to tell LF that Colemon is disobeying him or not taking care of Lord Robert's image with his bannermen.  It's like the boss's child being an intern - ignoring them when they speak in their parent's name could make your life very difficult.

Nobody denies that Colemon is a morally weak character.  But moral weakness is not an excuse for murder.  In modern times, professional interrogators take advantage of moral weakness, when trying to get confessions from suspected murderers.  "Yes, we know you did it, but your reasons were so UNDERSTANDABLE.  How could any reasonable person expect you to resist such sore temptations?  Why don't you just admit that you did it, but only because of these understandable reasons."  Of course, all that sympathy and understanding goes out the window, once the interrogator gets his confession and hands the case off to the prosecutor.   If this applies today, it applied four-fold in medieval times to any murderer tries who to hide behind an excuse of cowardice.  This was an age when courage was not merely expected of men -- it was required.  A man was expected to lay his life on the line for his wife, for his children, for his lord, and for his faith.  As we found out in the case of Gareth, the penalty for desertion could be death.

Then you move on to arguing that Colemon was "justified".  Okay.  Maybe he was.  But if he was justified, then there was no crime at all, and we can end the thread.  When it comes to sweetsleep, Colemon knows more than Sansa, more than LF, and more than the reader.  If he really and truly thinks the doses are "justified", then nobody else can say they know better.  If Colemon is truly "justified" then that is all the more reason why you cannot blame Sansa.  She is guilty of nothing more than encouraging him to do what you now claim is the right thing.

Sansa has no "clout" whatsoever in this case.  Colemon, in following her suggestion, does not do so because she has any authority, but because she happens to be right.  Her argument is almost unassailable.  Either sweetsleep is justified in this one instance, or it is never justified.  Nobody wants Robin to have a seizure and fall off the mountain.  For Colemon to ignore this consideration after it was pointed out to him would be almost unthinkable.   And it would not matter if it came from Sansa or the dairy-maid.

Sansa, BTW, never threatens to tell LF anything.  She merely makes a perfectly true statement about what LF would want.  Even LF does not want Robin to fall off a mountain.  Not yet, anyway.

 

[Gilbert Green]

For those of you who think the wicked Sansa is forcing the poor innocent Colemon to poison Sweetrobin, do you have a theory as to what, exactly, is the "something vile" that Colemon is secretly administering to Sweetrobin without Sansa's knowledge?

My hypothesis would be (1) Sweetrobin thinks he likes sweetmilk, but this merely means he likes sweet sugary things; (2)  he has developed an aversion to actual sweetsleep, and to sweetmilk sweetened by actual sweetsleep; (3) this aversion is a symptom indicating that the poison is building up in his body; (4) nosebleeds are another symptom, which is why Colemon associates nosebleeds with tasting something vile, as well as with sweetsleep.

Some quotes, in order:

Robert sniffled. "Maester Colemon put something vile in my milk last night, I could taste it. I told him I wanted sweetmilk, but he wouldn't bring me any. Not even when I commanded him. I am the lord, he should do what I say. No one does what I say."

[....]

He hesitated. "Did you observe any shaking while you were with him?"

"His fingers trembled a little bit when I held his hand, that's all. He says you put something vile in his milk."

"Vile?" Colemon blinked at her, and the apple in his throat moved up and down. "I merely . . . is he bleeding from the nose?"

[...]

Time will not matter if his lordship has a shaking fit and falls off the mountain. If my father were here, I know he would tell you to keep Lord Robert calm at all costs."

"I try, my lady, yet his fits grow ever more violent, and his blood is so thin I dare not leech him any more. Sweetsleep . . . you are certain he was not bleeding from the nose?"

 

[Roswell]

On 11/3/2022 at 6:15 PM, PaulSnowfyre said:

What? Can you give us the actual quote? I dont remember ever reading that.

It was something George mentioned in passing.  He said something like he will be killing more characters and many fans will be mad.  He also said Sansa will do something to disappoint the fans.  I don't have the link.

[the trees have eyes]

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

So he is. That's not enough reason to scoop the responsibility off Colemon and dump it onto Sansa.

If the intern was telling you to poison the firm's owner, so her parent/your boss could steal it - you would say no. Everyone would say no. It's not a marginal decision.

I agree with the first part, but sweetsleep is a medicinal remedy and it's use in moderation is legitimate.  No one is telling Colemon to poison Robert Arryn, they are telling him to up the morphine/ steroids to keep Robert stable and he is going along under protest because it's dangerous.

2 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Nobody denies that Colemon is a morally weak character.  But moral weakness is not an excuse for murder. 

Colemon understands the long term risks versus the short term benefit better than anyone.  He is concerned that LF is relying on sweetsleep to keep Robert stable and that this is unsustainable.  Medicines have side effects, something we know well, and this is what Colemon is wrestling particularly as he does not have full prescribing authority as a modern doctor would and political considerations are trumping purely medical ones.

Neither Colemon nor Sansa is trying to kill Robert.

2 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Sansa has no "clout" whatsoever in this case.  

Sansa, BTW, never threatens to tell LF anything.  She merely makes a perfectly true statement about what LF would want.

She doesn't have to.  She expresses LF's wishes.  You put the quote in yourself.  My comment was in response to @Springwatch saying Sansa has no authority over Colemon.  She does if she says what her father would want and people decide to listen.  The only reason a maester is having this conversation with and taking instruction from a 12/13 year old girl is because of who her "father" is.

[Gilbert Green]

14 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Neither Colemon nor Sansa is trying to kill Robert.

Agree on Sansa.  But what is the vile something that Colemon is secretly putting in Robin's milk?

14 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

She doesn't have to.  She expresses LF's wishes.  You put the quote in yourself.  My comment was in response to @Springwatch saying Sansa has no authority over Colemon. 

She does not have to, and she doesn't.  She reminds him of LF's wishes, because she has no authority of her own.  @Springwatch is right.  All she does is say a true thing that Colemon cannot possibly argue against, because it is so obviously true no matter who says it.

14 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

The only reason a maester is having this conversation with and taking instruction from a 12/13 year old girl is because of who her "father" is.

If a serving maid had said the same thing, Colemon would have had no choice but to realize that what the serving maid said was true.  The identity of the serving-maid's father has nothing to do with it.