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Sansa is slowly killing Sweetrobin


Kierria
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5 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Colemon is neither a quick thinker nor a smooth talker.  And he is obviously very nervous about something.  And he almost DOES blurt out what it was that he gave Sweetrobin.  Then he thinks better of it and stops himself.

LF has already implicated himself by ordering doses, and arguing with Colemon about the dangers.   You are essentially saying LF would never do what we know he has done.

There is no need for LF to suddenly say "my man Colemon, let's slow-murder Sweetrobin".   And by the time Colemon puts 1 and 1 and 1 and 1 together, he's already an accomplice.

Colemon is a weak man, who wants to follow orders and avoid trouble.  The situation probably developed slowly with every new dose making him more and more guilty.  He's like a frog in a pot being slowly heated.

Vitamins would be anachronism, but never mind.  I get the idea.  My answer is this:  If it was only vitamins, he would have said "I only gave him vitamins".  Instead he says "I only..." then stops himself, and suddenly asks about nosebleeds.  And he seems to also associate nosebleeds with sweetsleep poisoning.

And you can hardly be serious.  Would GRRM really tease a mystery like this, and have the solution be "health supplements"?

I get this is your view.  It's all conjecture.  You pose no credible reason for Colemon, who served the Arryns long before LF was appointed, to acquiesce in poisoning Robert.

Sansa knows LF has had Colemon prescribe sweetsleep to Robert.  There is no mystery that Colemon needs to keep hidden.  We all know LF has Colemon administer sweetsleep.  The point is that Colemon prescribes it as a powerful medicine with side effects and sometimes against his better judgment due to the danger of cumulative dosage not as some moustache-twirling dastardly act for no discernible reason.  There is simply no reason for Colemon to panic at Sansa proposing more sweetsleep as he can simply say he's already given him a dose to get him down the mountain

You're being pedantic over vitamins but never mind.  The equivalent in Westeros would be herbal remedies or tinctures added to his milk - if indeed anything is added at all.  It's equally possible he finds milk other than Lysa's breast milk different or unpleasant.  These are simple and obvious answers to why he finds the milk tastes "vile",

Are you serious? :rolleyes:

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5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I get this is your view.  It's all conjecture.  You pose no credible reason for Colemon, who served the Arryns long before LF was appointed, to acquiesce in poisoning Robert.

Gold, self-preservation, and all kinds of other things, could play a role.  If he accuses LF, LF is not going to take it lying down.  He will respond with accusations of his own.  And other punishments.   Going along is the path of least resistance.  LF cannot expose him without exposing himself. 

We don't need to know the whole story.  When you see a man committing murder, you arrest him first, and ask him why later.

As for whistleblowers sending Ravens, you think LF cannot anticipate that problem and keep a guard on the rookery? 

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Sansa knows LF has had Colemon prescribe sweetsleep to Robert. 

And now she knows that LF has done this more often than she knew.    And she still does not know about the "something vile" that LF put Sweetrobin's milk last night.

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

There is no mystery that Colemon needs to keep hidden. 

There is definitely SOME mystery that Colemon is keeping hidden.

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

We all know LF has Colemon administer sweetsleep.  The point is that Colemon prescribes it as a powerful medicine with side effects and sometimes against his better judgment due to the danger of cumulative dosage not as some moustache-twirling dastardly act for no discernible reason. 

Real murderers don't twirl their mustaches   That's in cartoons.

Administering a medicine "against his better judgment" is already a culpable act, possibly amounting to complicity in murder, depending on how far or in what way it goes against his better judgment.   But it clearly goes well beyond negligent medical malpractice.  This is deliberate recklessness at least.  This is not inadvertent.  He knows.  If he is not potentially complicit in a depraved-indifference murder or an intentional murder, it is at least the sort of recklessness that could result in a manslaughter charge.

What is his motive for acting against his better judgment?  I could just as easily ask you that question.  But, again, we don't need to know his life story to follow the clues that he is acting against his better judgment.

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

There is simply no reason for Colemon to panic at Sansa proposing more sweetsleep as he can simply say he's already given him a dose to get him down the mountain

But he does panic.  We see his adam's apple bobbing up and down in his extreme nervousness.

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

You're being pedantic over vitamins but never mind.  The equivalent in Westeros would be herbal remedies or tinctures added to his milk - if indeed anything is added at all. 

I wasn't pedantic.  i said I understood what you meant, and addressed your objection.  Vitamins, tinctures, herbs.  WHATEVER!   You are the one being pedantic, and evading my answer merely because I used the same word you did.

If his herb/tincture/vitamin/medicine/whatever was innocent WHY DOES HE SUDDENLY STOP HIMSELF FROM SAYING WHAT IT WAS??

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

It's equally possible he finds milk other than Lysa's breast milk different or unpleasant. 

No that is not possible.   His mother died months ago.  And he believes he likes "sweetmilk", which at the very least is ordinary milk sweetened by something, such as honey or sweetsleep.  Also, it is weird enough that Lysa breastfed little Robert for so long.  There is no need to assume he has never tasted other food before.  The situation is not THAT weird.

Edited by Gilbert Green
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On 10/29/2022 at 10:41 AM, Kierria said:

Sweetrobin is slowly being poisoned.  It is not yet a crime of murder because the child is still alive but Sansa is part of the insidious plot to murder the child and take all that is his.  Will Sansa go through with the murder?  The odds are close to even but does lean lightly to Sansa doing the crime. 

Look back on Sansa's past and tell me what you think.  Tell me what you think will happen. 

The Sansa we know is a selfish girl who has delusions of her own grandeur.  Sweetrobin is a dead bird if Sansa ever got the notion to kill him to benefit herself.  

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On 12/10/2022 at 6:46 PM, James West said:

The Sansa we know is a selfish girl who has delusions of her own grandeur.

Delusional, yes.  But it is hard to call her selfish when she has delusional ideas about where her duty lay.  And I think her delusions were of Joffrey's grandeur, not her own.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 10/29/2022 at 10:41 AM, Kierria said:

Sweetrobin is slowly being poisoned.  It is not yet a crime of murder because the child is still alive but Sansa is part of the insidious plot to murder the child and take all that is his.  Will Sansa go through with the murder?  The odds are close to even but does lean lightly to Sansa doing the crime. 

Look back on Sansa's past and tell me what you think.  Tell me what you think will happen. 

The Sansa we have read so far doesn't have the guts to carry out a messy murder.  Poison will be her weapon.  No blood.  It's not hard.  And she can dose the child and then leave him to slowly expire. 

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Attributing all sorts of machinations and ambitions to Sansa is silly. She has not yet grown up enough to make plans. She has however taken on some of her false persona and sees Petyr somewhat as her father. She is stuck with caring for Sweetrobin because she was nice to him and is the only one with the ability to persuade him. She will probably be the one to give him too much sweetsleep because she is stuck with his care, the Maester has already waffled and given him too much and said no more for six months when that is totally unrealistic when it is the only way to control his behaviour and Petyr will demand his behaviour is controlled. She will rationalise that a little more won't hurt.

Petyr's character has reference to Faust and in Goethe's Faust, Faust seduces Gretchen. He persuades her to give a sleeping potion to her mother so that Gretchen can have trysts with Faust; her mother eventually dies. Her brother challenges to Faust about his seduction of Gretchen and is killed. Gretbhen gives birth to an illegitimate child and drowns it, is arrested and sentenced to death.

Petyr has already played out this poisoning scenario with Lysa poisoning or believing she has poisoned Jon Arryn, now he is doing it again with Sansa, but so far there is no sign she will be consciously going along with his plans, just harrassed into taking the short term way to calm Robin down.

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On 12/3/2022 at 6:15 PM, StarkTullies said:

Maybe.  People who already hate Sansa will use it as a (justified) reason to hate her more, but I don't think it will win her many new fans.  It would not increase my liking of her.  Robert Arryn may be annoying, but I sympathize with him for being just a little kid and raised by an over-sheltering lunatic mother, and for his sickly nature whatever the cause.  Sansa is one of my favorite characters, but she certainly won't be anymore if she intentionally murders her young cousin.

Yep.  I prefer that is not it, but definitely a possibility.  I guess it depends whether the "maid slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow" refers to Sansa accidentally ripping apart Robert's doll.  That is a weird waste of a prophecy if that was her act of "giant-slaying"... but if that hasn't happened yet, she will be a maid a while longer.

I agree.  I think all the main characters, Stark and otherwise, will be "tested"... and Winds of Winter will likely be the "darkest" book for many of them.  Bran and Sansa are under the influence of manipulative schemers (I think Brynden Rivers has nefarious motives for everything he does), and Arya is trapped in a death cult.  I don't think Jon has done anything remotely villainous up to this point, but I don't think his return from the dead as more "wolfish" will make him gentler or kinder (though adopting some personality traits of Ghost can't be that bad).

In all seriousness, I expect SR will be overdosed with sweet sleep. This will not be because Sansa deliberately kills him, but LF will try to frighten her, and guilt-trip her into believing she is an accomplice.

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On 10/29/2022 at 10:41 AM, Kierria said:

Sweetrobin is slowly being poisoned.  It is not yet a crime of murder because the child is still alive but Sansa is part of the insidious plot to murder the child and take all that is his.  Will Sansa go through with the murder?  The odds are close to even but does lean lightly to Sansa doing the crime. 

Look back on Sansa's past and tell me what you think.  Tell me what you think will happen. 

Sansa doesn't have the brains to put together a plan for herself.  She is dependent on those who want to use her as a pawn for their own games.  It's Sansa's lack of brains and her selfishness which will make her do something like this. 

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7 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Sansa doesn't have the brains to put together a plan for herself.  She is dependent on those who want to use her as a pawn for their own games.  It's Sansa's lack of brains and her selfishness which will make her do something like this. 

Yes, how stupid of this little girl who has been abused, traumatized, & mentally manipulated to no end for not being "smart" enough to play the game with the master players. 

Seriously, give constructive criticism of the character but why do people insist on saying things like this when they clearly aren't true. What has Sansa done to prove her self so "stupid" and "selfish"? 

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3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

What has Sansa done to prove her self so "stupid" and "selfish"? 

Oh come on now Lyanna, she has so many sins!  She blew it with Joffrey, she was mean to Arya, she would not bend her knees for Tyrion, she only pretended to like Queen Cirsei.  
 

She made out with her aunt’s husband in the snow and treated her younger cousin rudely by destroying his doll.  

The little minx led that poor singer on as if she was going to jump his bones then lied about it.  She even opened the Moon Door so LF could push Lysa out the door!

Do I need to go on?!   :smug: 
 

/s

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4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yes, how stupid of this little girl who has been abused, traumatized, & mentally manipulated to no end for not being "smart" enough to play the game with the master players. 
 

Sansa is stupid? Irony is deader than the person who invented irony. :rolleyes:

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Seriously, give constructive criticism of the character but why do people insist on saying things like this when they clearly aren't true. What has Sansa done to prove her self so "stupid" and "selfish"? 

If you want constructive criticism you must look elsewhere… :dunno:

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42 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Sansa is stupid? Irony is deader than the person who invented irony. /cdn-cgi/mirage/73827c3bf0a10ead890441bf3331f38eed80e1d0440f0daee08fc94041178e53/1280/https://asoiaf.westeros.org/uploads/emoticons/default_rolleyes.gif

If you want constructive criticism you must look elsewhere… /cdn-cgi/mirage/73827c3bf0a10ead890441bf3331f38eed80e1d0440f0daee08fc94041178e53/1280/https://asoiaf.westeros.org/uploads/emoticons/default_dunno.gif

Haha! I do know that! 

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23 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yes, how stupid of this little girl who has been abused, traumatized, & mentally manipulated to no end for not being "smart" enough to play the game with the master players. 

Seriously, give constructive criticism of the character but why do people insist on saying things like this when they clearly aren't true. What has Sansa done to prove her self so "stupid" and "selfish"? 

These are esteemed members of our community who happen to be fans of Daenerys Targaryen breaker of chains etc etc while also for some reason or another have a mild dislike for Starks and so they express their constructive criticisms.

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37 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

This is an esteemed member of our community who happens to be a fan of Daenerys Targaryen breaker of chains etc etc while also for some reason or another has a mild dislike for Starks and so they express their constructive criticisms.

Fixed it for you.

Edited by Craving Peaches
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2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

No, I just thought it would be prudent to change 'members' to 'member' because I really believe it is one person.

Double accounts, I believe, even triples but I think there are more than one of these valued individuals who like to share their valuable opinions on Starks with us. The multiple accounts are just so for we can get more exposure to their great ideas.

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3 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Double accounts, I believe, even triples but I think there are more than one of these valued individuals who like to share their valuable opinions on Starks with us. The multiple accounts are just so for we can get more exposure to their great ideas.

I don't know...has more than one ever been active at the same time?

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On 12/27/2022 at 3:59 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yes, how stupid of this little girl who has been abused, traumatized, & mentally manipulated to no end for not being "smart" enough to play the game with the master players. 

Seriously, give constructive criticism of the character but why do people insist on saying things like this when they clearly aren't true. What has Sansa done to prove her self so "stupid" and "selfish"? 

Sansa is hopeless in math.  She didn't see the consequences of going to Cersei with her dad's plans.  

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1 hour ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Sansa is hopeless in math.  She didn't see the consequences of going to Cersei with her dad's plans.  

You're not serious. Hopeless in math, huh? She didn't see the consequences of her going to Cersei with her dad's plans because he didn't let her in on them. She hadn't the slightest why he was taking them back to Winterfell. This is just silly. 

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