Sansa is slowly killing Sweetrobin

[Craving Peaches]

27 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

They hunted Micah for days, and Arya too, Sansa’s own sister, while Sansa wasn’t telling the truth… for days! People sometimes act like it was something that happened quickly or in confusion, but there was a lot of time for her to feel bad, tell the truth, or join the search. You can try and downplay it or excuse it, but it’s still there.

But if the Hound was acting on orders from Cersei or Joffrey, it wouldn't matter what Sansa said. Mycah was marked for death because he was near Joffrey in a bad mood and he's just a disposable peasant to them.

30 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

It seems pretty clear that Lady’s death was symbolically (and kind of literally) due to her betrayal of her family.

I don't think she really betrayed her family though. She didn't side with the Lannisters over her own family, she didn't say that Joffrey was telling the truth or take his side, all she said was that she didn't remember what happened. It was a lie, and it's not good to lie, but I don't think it's enough to catagorise it as a betrayal of her own family.

34 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I mean… she runs to Cersei to tell her Ned’s plan because she wants to be queen…

But she's not telling Cersei the plans because she wants to betray and hurt her own family. I just really don't think there is enough intention or recklessness on her part to say she 'betrayed' them.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I also think that you need to have intent to betray someone, or at least reach a very high degree of recklessness, both of which I don't think apply to Sansa.

Agreed & couple that with that fact that she was a child who had no idea what was going on &/or why her father was taking them away, she can hardly hold much blame. She disobeyed her father, yes, much like any other child of the time or any time has done. She didn't betray her family. 

[Mourning Star]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

But if the Hound was acting on orders from Cersei or Joffrey, it wouldn't matter what Sansa said. Mycah was marked for death because he was near Joffrey in a bad mood and he's just a disposable peasant to them.

Her actions or lack reflect her character even if you don’t think they would impact the outcome.

"To be sure. You are an honest and honorable man, Lord Eddard. Ofttimes I forget that. I have met so few of them in my life." He glanced around the cell. "When I see what honesty and honor have won you, I understand why."

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't think she really betrayed her family though. She didn't side with the Lannisters over her own family, she didn't say that Joffrey was telling the truth or take his side, all she said was that she didn't remember what happened. It was a lie, and it's not good to lie, but I don't think it's enough to catagorise it as a betrayal of her own family.

And you are entitled to that view.

But, not acting is as much a choice as acting, and very often the idea that one can take no side is an illusion. As in this case, where he refusing to answer led to the death of Lady (the very symbol of House Stark).

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

But she's not telling Cersei the plans because she wants to betray and hurt her own family. I just really don't think there is enough intention or recklessness on her part to say she 'betrayed' them.

Petty and reckless betrayals are still betrayals. Sansa didn’t want to go back to Winterfell, she wanted to be Queen, but self interest isn’t a good reason for betrayal.

44 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Agreed & couple that with that fact that she was a child who had no idea what was going on &/or why her father was taking them away, she can hardly hold much blame. She disobeyed her father, yes, much like any other child of the time or any time has done. She didn't betray her family. 

I understand that one can excuse children being children, and people make mistakes, this isn’t a person on trial but a character in a story.

I think actions and thoughts define a character, and that isn’t to say she can’t change, as I said I think she is approaching a tipping point, but I’m not optimistic about the outcome given the events so far.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Mourning Star

[Nathan Stark]

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

They hunted Micah for days, and Arya too, Sansa’s own sister, while Sansa wasn’t telling the truth… for days! People sometimes act like it was something that happened quickly or in confusion, but there was a lot of time for her to feel bad, tell the truth, or join the search. You can try and downplay it or excuse it, but it’s still there.

At the end of the day it’s a character, and I feel like some people take opinions about characters like this a little to personally.

I mean… she runs to Cersei to tell her Ned’s plan because she wants to be queen… she’s young and foolish and shortsighted, they help us understand the character, but they amount to excuses. It’s easy to understand why she behaved the way she did, and just as easy to see why it was morally wrong. 

It seems pretty clear that Lady’s death was symbolically (and kind of literally) due to her betrayal of her family.

If she is complicit in the murder of Robert Arryn, either willingly or obliviously, I think she’ll be beyond redemption. But as I said above, part of me hopes she can redeem herself.

Even the book doesn't agree with the bolded part.

Quote

"They were not the only ones present," Ned said. "Sansa, come here." Ned had heard her version of the story the night Arya had vanished. He knew the truth.

Sansa certainly was not lying to her father "for days." She told him her story the night Arya vanished, which seemed to line up with the story Arya gave King Robert, since Ned saw fit to use Sansa as backup for the story Arya was telling.

The text explicitly tells us that Mycah died long after Sansa could have done or said anything to save him. It really wasn't her responsibility anyway. It was the adults who failed in that situation, not the children. As for Lady, her death was not punishment for Sansa's sins, but a symbol of the death of Sansa's dreams. She desperatly wanted to be a Lady, a Queen, who everybody loves and looks up to the way she looked up to Cersei. And it was Cersei who ordered Lady put to death, forshadowing the way Cersei would ultimately betray, capture and abuse Sansa. The scene is not a sadistic punishment by the author upon one of his characters, but a tragedy fortelling how Sansa's naive dreams will eventually lead to her and her families downfall. 

Sansa running off to Cersei is hardly her best moment, and she will have to reckon with that some day. But lets not overstate her role here. Sansa made things a little easier for Cersei, but it was Littlefinger and Janos Slynt and even Ned himself who ensured Cersei's coup succeeded.

None of this indicates that Sansa is capable of deliberately murdering a child. Unintentionally she may cause his death, or she may yet choose to save the boy. But there is no indication in the books so far that she is willing to commit murder solely for power.

[chrisdaw]

Lady's death is a simple symbolic breaking of Sansa from the ethos of the contemporary Starks.

[Craving Peaches]

57 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Her actions or lack reflect her character even if you don’t think they would impact the outcome.

Perhaps. But I don't see how Sansa's decision to lie could ever affect the outcome of Mycah's death. Because there was no casual link between them. Mycah didn't die due to anything Sansa said, he died because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. The only 'contribution' (at a stretch) Sansa had to his death in my view was deciding to go riding with Joffrey, and she had no way of seeing how badly that would go. And at that point one could blame anyone nearby for how things turned out.

59 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Petty and reckless betrayals are still betrayals.

It depends on the definition of 'betrayal'. And it would have to be either quite a reckless betrayal or an intentional betrayal for me to see it as such. Petty/careless/accidental betrayals aren't really proper betrayals in my view because the blameworthy state of mind just isn't there. It's an accident. If Sansa knew what the consequences would be she never would have disclosed the information to Cersei.

[PaulSnowfyre]

23 hours ago, Roswell said:

George RR Martin already revealed that Sansa will do something to disappoint the Starks fans in Winds. 

What? Can you give us the actual quote? I dont remember ever reading that.

[Nathan Stark]

53 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Lady's death is a simple symbolic breaking of Sansa from the ethos of the contemporary Starks.

Nope. Lady's death is symbolic of the death of Sansa's dreams. She starts out far from the ethos of the contemporary Starks, much closer to the values reflected by Catelyn and Septa Mordayne. By AFfC, Sansa has grown much closer to the values of Ned and the North, reflected in her growing attachment to the Old Gods.

[Nathan Stark]

22 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Perhaps. But I don't see how Sansa's decision to lie could ever affect the outcome of Mycah's death. Because there was no casual link between them. Mycah didn't die due to anything Sansa said, he died because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. The only 'contribution' (at a stretch) Sansa had to his death in my view was deciding to go riding with Joffrey, and she had no way of seeing how badly that would go. And at that point one could blame anyone nearby for how things turned out.

It depends on the definition of 'betrayal'. And it would have to be either quite a reckless betrayal or an intentional betrayal for me to see it as such. Petty/careless/accidental betrayals aren't really proper betrayals in my view because the blameworthy state of mind just isn't there. It's an accident. If Sansa knew what the consequences would be she never would have disclosed the information to Cersei.

Ah, but Sansa didn't lie to Ned, her dad, she lied to Robert, her King and future father in law. And even then, the lie was "I don't know what happened, I didn't see." Very different from outright saying "Arya and Micah did it and Joffrey was entirely innocent!" Again, not a great moment for Sansa, but she's 12. Name one 12 year old you know who wouldn't fudge in front of authority to make themselves look better. Many adults do this. 

Sansa critics frequently make the error of applying the same standards to Sansa, a child, that they would to an adult like Cersei. The reality, in text, is that nothing Sansa has done of her own volition is anywhere close to the least of Cersei's crimes. Sansa murdering Sweetrobin in cold blood, fully aware of what she is doing, would be a major change in her character, way beyond anything she has done so far.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Nathan Stark

[chrisdaw]

7 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

Nope. Lady's death is symbolic of the death of Sansa's dreams. She starts out far from the ethos of the contemporary Starks, much closer to the values reflected by Catelyn and Septa Mordayne. By AFfC, Sansa has grown much closer to the values of Ned and the North, reflected in her growing attachment to the Old Gods.

No the Direwolf is the symbol of house Stark and her's is killed when she betrays the truth and family for personal expedience. It's very clear, as her path is ever towards the game of thrones and away from House Stark, Catelyn and Ned wouldn't accept in the slightest her poisoning or manipulation of Robert or ever endorse the continual lessons she's taking from Littlefinger.

[Craving Peaches]

7 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

Ah, but Sansa didn't lie to Ned, her dad, she lied to Robert, her King and future father in law. And even then, the lie was "I don't know what happened, I didn't see."

I agree. This is what she has done 'wrong', the lie to Robert.

Quote

"Now, child, you will tell me what happened. Tell it all, and tell it true. It is a great crime to lie to a king."

This could be why Lady died. But I don't believe Sansa betrayed anyone, certainly not her own family. And it wasn't a massive lie or anything. Lying is no good but it wasn't enough to constitute betrayal in my view.

[Nathan Stark]

1 minute ago, chrisdaw said:

No the Direwolf is the symbol of house Stark and her's is killed when she betrays the truth and family for personal expedience. It's very clear, as her path is ever towards the game of thrones and away from House Stark, Catelyn and Ned wouldn't accept in the slightest her poisoning or manipulation of Robert or ever endorse the continual lessons she's taking from Littlefinger.

You are mistaken to say the game of thrones is in opposition to House Stark. Everybody plays the game. Ned played it and lost. Robb played it and lost. Jon played it and and was betrayed by his own men. The game of thrones is politics, not some ethereal standard to which the Starks stand in opposition. They want to win the game as much as anyone else. And yes, Lady was symbolic of Sansa's dreams of being a proper noble lady, which is why Sansa named her wolf Lady. Your argument would apply only if Sansa herself had killed Lady. But she didn't. Cersei ordered Lady's death, and Ned did the deed. Lady's death had nothing to do with anything Sansa did herself.

[chrisdaw]

Just now, Nathan Stark said:

You are mistaken to say the game of thrones is in opposition to House Stark. Everybody plays the game. Ned played it and lost. Robb played it and lost. Jon played it and and was betrayed by his own men. The game of thrones is politics, not some ethereal standard to which the Starks stand in opposition. They want to win the game as much as anyone else. And yes, Lady was symbolic of Sansa's dreams of being a proper noble lady, which is why Sansa named her wolf Lady. Your argument would apply only if Sansa herself had killed Lady. But she didn't. Cersei ordered Lady's death, and Ned did the deed. Lady's death had nothing to do with anything Sansa did herself.

No I'm not mistaken. Ned went against his nature to play the game not for his own benefit as a player in the game of thrones does but because he felt bound to put the realm to right, he was bad at it mainly because he didn't truly engage in it because it's not in his nature and he's not willing to go to lengths others were. Jon's not playing the game of thrones, he's trying to lead the watch and then tried to save Arya. The Direwolf is the symbol of House Stark and Sansa's was killed very early when she betrayed the Stark ethos in this story. That her lies may not have directly lead to Lady's execution is immaterial. Sansa's path is very linear from the trident lies for Lannister benefit in early AGOT progressing to her poisoning Robert for Littlefinger's and her own benefit.

[Nathan Stark]

13 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

This could be why Lady died. But I don't believe Sansa betrayed anyone, certainly not her own family. And it wasn't a massive lie or anything. Lying is no good but it wasn't enough to constitute betrayal in my view.

I think Lady died for one reason only; Cersei's desire to punish and humiliate House Stark. Robert wasn't going to do anything about... well, anything. He wanted the whole sorry business over with as soon as possible. As it all relates to Sansa's ark in the story, the loss of Lady clearly forshadows Cersei's future mistreatment of Sansa, and indicates that Sansa's naive romantic worldview will have to die if she is to survive to adulthood. Just as Jon was advised to "kill the boy and let the man be born," Sansa must "kill the girl and let the woman be born." Lady's death serves to remind us that Sansa's romantic worldview is as out of place and vulnerable in Kings Landing as an actual direwolf would be.

Never forget, Arya had to give up Nymeria as well, but unlike Sansa, Arya was aware of the choice, whereas her naive sister had it made for her.

[Nathan Stark]

1 minute ago, chrisdaw said:

No I'm not mistaken. Ned went against his nature to play the game not for his own benefit as a player in the game of thrones does but because he felt bound to put the realm to right, he was bad at it mainly because he didn't truly engage in it because it's not in his nature and he's not willing to go to lengths others were. Jon's not playing the game of thrones, he's trying to lead the watch and then tried to save Arya. The Direwolf is the symbol of House Stark and Sansa's was killed very early when she betrayed the Stark ethos in this story. That her lies may not have directly lead to Lady's execution is immaterial. Sansa's path is very linear from the trident lies for Lannister benefit in early AGOT progressing to her poisoning Robert for Littlefinger's and her own benefit.

Yes, you are. Ned did not go against his instincts to play the game of thrones. He went against his instincts to go to Kings Landing to serve as Robert's Hand. Ned was playing the game the whole time, because that's what you do as Lord Paramount. The North didn't just rule itself. 

[Craving Peaches]

10 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

I think Lady died for one reason only; Cersei's desire to punish and humiliate House Stark.

I agree that's the real reason, I was meaning maybe thematically that could be the reason Sansa was 'punished' with Lady's death.

[chrisdaw]

7 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

Yes, you are. Ned did not go against his instincts to play the game of thrones. He went against his instincts to go to Kings Landing to serve as Robert's Hand. Ned was playing the game the whole time, because that's what you do as Lord Paramount. The North didn't just rule itself. 

No to be a high lord doesn't mean you're just automatically playing the game of thrones, the concept has a meaning and it's not that.

[Nathan Stark]

13 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

No to be a high lord doesn't mean you're just automatically playing the game of thrones, the concept has a meaning and it's not that.

Umm, yeah, it does. The game of thrones is just a fancy expression meaning "politics." If one is in any position of power and authority over multiple people, they are doing politics whether they realize it or not. Ned was responsible for the lives of millions of people in the North, and worked with his bannerman to maintain order and stability. That's what being a high lord means in a feudal system. That's how politics works in this story. King Robert didn't want to accept that the price of being King of Westeros was that he had to actually do politics. Robert tried to never play the game at all, so instead the game played him. Ned, Robb and Jon each played the game more effectively than Robert did, but each made crucial errors in judgement that lead to their downfall. Sansa is learning to play the game the way Littlefinger does, devoid of scruples and completely cynical, but she doesn't yet fully see the costs of that approach yet, which is why her future interactions with SweetRobin are so important. But Sansa can never escape the game. No one can escape the game. If you do, you end up like King Robert.

[chrisdaw]

1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

Umm, yeah, it does. The game of thrones is just a fancy expression meaning "politics." If one is in any position of power and authority over multiple people, they are doing politics whether they realize it or not. Ned was responsible for the lives of millions of people in the North, and worked with his bannerman to maintain order and stability. That's what being a high lord means in a feudal system. That's how politics works in this story. King Robert didn't want to accept that the price of being King of Westeros was that he had to actually do politics. Robert tried to never play the game at all, so instead the game played him. Ned, Robb and Jon each played the game more effectively than Robert did, but each made crucial errors in judgement that lead to their downfall. Sansa is learning to play the game the way Littlefinger does, devoid of scruples and completely cynical, but she doesn't yet fully see the costs of that approach yet, which is why her future interactions with SweetRobin are so important. But Sansa can never escape the game. No one can escape the game. If you do, you end up like King Robert.

No the concept has a meaning and it is not the regular actions of an everyday high lord.

[Only 89 selfies today]

4 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Nope. Lady's death is symbolic of the death of Sansa's dreams. She starts out far from the ethos of the contemporary Starks, much closer to the values reflected by Catelyn and Septa Mordayne. By AFfC, Sansa has grown much closer to the values of Ned and the North, reflected in her growing attachment to the Old Gods.

Ned was a good father and had okay values.  The rest of the Starks are on the dark side when it comes to morality.  I would not call it positive even if she were to become more like her brothers and sisters.  The north does not have superior values.  Robb and Jon are oathbreakers.  Arya is a crazy, homicidal vigilante.