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Sansa is slowly killing Sweetrobin


Kierria
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4 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

The rest of the Starks are on the dark side when it comes to morality.

Jon* and Sansa on the dark side when it comes to morality? Really? I can see it with Arya and Bran at a stretch, but I don't see it with these two at all. And Rickon is a child.

4 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

Arya is a crazy

She is not crazy and this is a matter of fact not a matter of opinion.

*I know he isn't technically a Stark.

Edited by Craving Peaches
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7 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

Ned was a good father and had okay values.  The rest of the Starks are on the dark side when it comes to morality.  I would not call it positive even if she were to become more like her brothers and sisters.  The north does not have superior values.  Robb and Jon are oathbreakers.  Arya is a crazy, homicidal vigilante.  

Well, this ties back to the discussion about the meaning of The Game of Thones.

The Lannisters threw the first punches.  Tywin and his family always ratcheted up the violence, with a bit of sexual sadism too.

But the Starks were willing to respond quite brutally.  They don’t want to make the smallfolk suffer, but they will do, if that’s what it takes to hit back.

Sansa does what she has to, to survive, eg lying on behalf of LF to the Vale lords. That may ultimately involve looking the other way, as Sweetrobin perishes.

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16 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Even the book doesn't agree with the bolded part.

What did Sansa tell Ned? What truth? It’s not clear that she defended her sister in the least.

As an older sibling her behavior (or lack) shocked me the first time I read it and it has always surprised me that people act like there was nothing she could do.

14 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Never forget, Arya had to give up Nymeria as well, but unlike Sansa, Arya was aware of the choice, whereas her naive sister had it made for her.

What Arya did was “not without honor”. Nymeria may be “lost” but not dead.

Sansa was not honorable, a famously Stark trait.

Sansa is the only Stark kid to have her wolf killed because she’s the only dishonorable one who chose to side against the family. (We could speculate about Jon/Ghost using the same reasoning).

The lone wolf dies.

"Winter is coming," Arya whispered.

"The hard cruel times," her father said. "We tastedthem on the Trident, child, and when Bran fell. You were born in the long summer, sweet one, you've never known anything else, but now the winter is truly coming. Remember the sigil of our House, Arya."

"The direwolf," she said, thinking of Nymeria. She hugged her knees against her chest, suddenly afraid.

"Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm. Septa Mordane is a good woman, and Sansa … Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you … and I need both of you, gods help me."

It seems like you are conflating the symbolism and the plot too. Cersei wanting a wolf pelt out of spite is a plot reason for Lady’s death, but symbolically this death is a repercussion of Sansa’s actions and who her character is. 

Edited by Mourning Star
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15 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Nope. Lady's death is symbolic of the death of Sansa's dreams. She starts out far from the ethos of the contemporary Starks, much closer to the values reflected by Catelyn and Septa Mordayne. By AFfC, Sansa has grown much closer to the values of Ned and the North, reflected in her growing attachment to the Old Gods.

How are you getting this?

Like I agree that she is the least “stark” of Ned’s kids… and more like her mother. But what do you see pointing to her becoming more like the other Starks?

Lady’s death was not a turning point for Sansa’s behavior. She kept lying about the Trident and still chose to run to Cersei when Ned wanted to send her home.

But… we have gotten way of topic here. Haha

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2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

As an older sibling her behavior (or lack) shocked me the first time I read it and it has always surprised me that people act like there was nothing she could do.

She certainly had options but I don't think we can ignore the rough spot she was in. She knew very well what telling the truth would mean. We cannot forget this is her betrothed, whose parents are King & Queen of the realm, not a mere dispute between two children. 

2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

What Arya did was “not without honor”. Nymeria may be “lost” but not dead.

Sansa was not honorable, a famously Stark trait.

Sansa is the only Stark kid to have her wolf killed because she’s the only dishonorable one who chose to side against the family. (We could speculate about Jon/Ghost using the same reasoning).

I agree with you about Arya but I cannot go as far as to call Sansa "dishonorable" or say she chose against her family. She is in the midst of her born family & her future family. Her future family being the ones who hold the authority here. She is also a child & while I wish she would have told the truth, she did not "lie" except by omission. She said she didn't know or didn't remember what happened. It's possible she really didn't.

 

She also isn't the only Stark kid to have her wolf killed. Robb's Greywind was killed as well. 

Edited by Lyanna<3Rhaegar
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1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

Lady’s death was not a turning point for Sansa’s behavior. She kept lying about the Trident and still chose to run to Cersei when Ned wanted to send her home.

I don't recall her saying anything else about the Trident, where did she keep lying about it? Not saying she didn't, I just don't remember it. 

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2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Sansa was not honorable, a famously Stark trait.

I'm not so sure honour is always considered a Stark trait. Ned was very honourable but he was raised in the Vale. We don't hear much else about honourable Starks. If anything honour would be a trait associated primarily with the Arryns.

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4 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

As an older sibling her behavior (or lack) shocked me the first time I read it and it has always surprised me that people act like there was nothing she could do.

Yeah, right, she could have told them what actually happened. That's Joff's stated aim was to keep Sansa safe from the (then hidden) fighters. That Joff only threatened Mycah after Mycah had hit Arya hard enough to make her cry out. Oops,  that sort of makes Joff look like the good guy he wasn't.

She could have told them Arya attacked Joff from behind, aiming a hard blow at his unprotected head, hard enough to split his scalp. That Nymeria raced in out of control, bit his sword arm, snarling and ripping at him.

She could have told them that Joff split precisely one drop of blood, and Arya herself never had a scratch on her - but after the combined attack of Arya and Nymeria, Joff was soaked in blood, crying in pain. To which Arya callously remarked that the direwolf (!) only bit him a little. Then she picked up the fallen sword and threw it in the river. Then she and Mycah both ran off like guilty criminals, instead of, you know, checking if Joff was going to bleed to death or anything, and might need help.

It's not a good story to tell. It's not good at all. Ned may think the only important thing is that Joff lied, but Joff's royal parents are thinking it's all about a wolf attack. And Arya's attack too.

Edited by Springwatch
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2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

She also isn't the only Stark kid to have her wolf killed. Robb's Greywind was killed as well. 

Robb dies… and it turns out leaving the wolf in a cage was probably a mistake.

Jon is briefly separated from Ghost as well, but reunited.

My point was that Sansa is the only living Stark child whose wolf was killed off so far. By Ned’s own hand no less.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't recall her saying anything else about the Trident, where did she keep lying about it? Not saying she didn't, I just don't remember it. 

Sansa said. "The Hound is Joffrey's sworn shield. Your butcher's boy attacked the prince."

"Liar," Arya said.

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I'm not so sure honour is always considered a Stark trait. Ned was very honourable but he was raised in the Vale. We don't hear much else about honourable Starks. If anything honour would be a trait associated primarily with the Arryns.

Be it a Stark trait or a Ned trait, we are talking about his children. 

Can you think of an example where a Stark acted dishonorably?

Robert was raised in the Vale too, but he’s no Ned Stark.

Edited by Mourning Star
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12 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Yeah, right, she could have told them what actually happened. That's Joff's stated aim was to keep Sansa safe from the (then hidden) fighters. That Joff only threatened Mycah after Mycah had hit Arya hard enough to make her cry out. Oops,  that sort of makes Joff look like the good guy he wasn't.

She could have told them Arya attacked Joff from behind, aiming a hard blow at his unprotected head, hard enough to split his scalp. That Nymeria raced in out of control, bit his sword arm, snarling and ripping at him.

She could have told them that Joff split precisely one drop of blood, and Arya herself never had a scratch on her - but after the combined attack of Arya and Nymeria, Joff was soaked in blood, crying in pain. To which Arya callously remarked that the direwolf (!) only bit him a little. Then she picked up the fallen sword and threw it in the river. Then she and Mycah both ran off like guilty criminals, instead of, you know, checking if Joff was going to bleed to death or anything, and might need help.

It's not a good story to tell. It's not good at all. Ned may think the only important thing is that Joff lied, but Joff's royal parents are thinking it's all about a wolf attack. And Arya's attack too.

What?

Sure, Sansa could paint whatever picture she wants to, and doing so would have been just as bad as staying silent, we the readers saw what happened…

Robert is absolutely not just thinking it’s about a wolf attack. Joff threatened an unarmed girl and butchers boy with a sword, then lost… which to Robert might be the bigger crime.

Obviously, Cersei and Robert’s opinions have no bearing on the morality of the situation. 

I’m not sure what you are trying to prove by saying the events could be misrepresented… when I’m pointing out that Sansa’s silence damned them anyway? She could be worse? Ya sure…

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5 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Robb dies… and it turns out leaving the wolf in a cage was probably a mistake.

Indeed, but his wolf was killed. You said she was the only one to have her wolf killed. 

6 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Jon is briefly separated from Ghost as well, but reunited.

My point was that Sansa is the only living Stark child whose wolf was killed off so far. By Ned’s own hand no less.

Right, except it wasn't. Robb's wolf was killed as well. 

6 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Sansa said. "The Hound is Joffrey's sworn shield. Your butcher's boy attacked the prince."

"Liar," Arya said.

Fair enough. 

 

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18 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Yeah, right, she could have told them what actually happened. That's Joff's stated aim was to keep Sansa safe from the (then hidden) fighters. That Joff only threatened Mycah after Mycah had hit Arya hard enough to make her cry out. Oops,  that sort of makes Joff look like the good guy he wasn't.

She could have told them Arya attacked Joff from behind, aiming a hard blow at his unprotected head, hard enough to split his scalp. That Nymeria raced in out of control, bit his sword arm, snarling and ripping at him.

She could have told them that Joff split precisely one drop of blood, and Arya herself never had a scratch on her - but after the combined attack of Arya and Nymeria, Joff was soaked in blood, crying in pain. To which Arya callously remarked that the direwolf (!) only bit him a little. Then she picked up the fallen sword and threw it in the river. Then she and Mycah both ran off like guilty criminals, instead of, you know, checking if Joff was going to bleed to death or anything, and might need help.

It's not a good story to tell. It's not good at all. Ned may think the only important thing is that Joff lied, but Joff's royal parents are thinking it's all about a wolf attack. And Arya's attack too.

Yeah, exactly. While, we the readers, may feel as if Joff deserved it, he is the crown prince. His mother isn't going to see things this way. All Sansa would have accomplished by telling the truth is making Joff & Cersei mad at her as well. 

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2 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Sure, Sansa could paint whatever picture she wants to, and doing so would have been just as bad as staying silent, we the readers saw what happened

But that is what happened. That's precisely what happened & that is most likely exactly how Cersei is going to look at it. Yes, Joff is a twat & deserved it but the King & Queen are not going to see it like that. 

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2 minutes ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Indeed, but his wolf was killed. You said she was the only one to have her wolf killed. 

Right, except it wasn't. Robb's wolf was killed as well. 

Fair enough. 

 

Robb was already dead… Sansa is still the only Stark kid to lose her wolf.

Can’t lose something after you’ve died…

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1 minute ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, exactly. While, we the readers, may feel as if Joff deserved it, he is the crown prince. His mother isn't going to see things this way. All Sansa would have accomplished by telling the truth is making Joff & Cersei mad at her as well. 

No!

She could have told the truth!

Morality matters! Are we reading the same series? Lol

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3 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Robert is absolutely not just thinking it’s about a wolf attack. Joff threatened an unarmed girl and butchers boy with a sword, then lost… which to Robert might be the bigger crime.

I don't think so. Robert wanted to be done with whole affair. He could have cared less that Joff threatened a girl (she wasn't really unarmed) She had her stick at first & then Joff's sword for a minute, as well as Nymeria. 

4 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Obviously, Cersei and Robert’s opinions have no bearing on the morality of the situation. 

I’m not sure what you are trying to prove by saying the events could be misrepresented… when I’m pointing out that Sansa’s silence damned them anyway? She could be worse? Ya sure…

I think the point is that Sansa saying what happened didn't make that much of a difference in the situation. It would likely have had the same outcome. 

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3 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

But that is what happened. That's precisely what happened & that is most likely exactly how Cersei is going to look at it. Yes, Joff is a twat & deserved it but the King & Queen are not going to see it like that. 

Oh my god…

That is not what was presented… there was not a technically true but biased story told.

"Joff told us what happened," the queen said. "You and the butcher boy beat him with clubs while you set your wolf on him."

There were objective lies, and she had the chance to tell the truth.

It’s a very simple plot point but this is like pulling teeth…

Edited by Mourning Star
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2 minutes ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

I think the point is that Sansa saying what happened didn't make that much of a difference in the situation. It would likely have had the same outcome. 

Morality is not determined by outcome. This is like kindergarten philosophy 101, and why I quoted Varys pointing this truth out to Ned.

Enough, this is a waste of time

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