Jump to content

The Strangeness of the First Book


Craving Peaches
 Share

Recommended Posts

The first book, a Game of Thrones, is my favourite. However after reading all of the subsequent books and then going back to the first one, you do start to notice some oddities.

1. Things Made to be Big Problems that aren't brought up again.

  • Where was Robert Arryn going to be fostered? Casterly Rock or Dragonstone? Ned spends quite a lot of time thinking about this but after GoT it's not really mentioned again and no one seems to care.
  • Jaime becoming Warden of the East and West. Obviously this never happens because Cersei makes Daven the new Warden of the West and Robert dies, but no one else seems to even care about the possibility. Robert makes a big fuss about Robert Arryn not being WotE, because of how sickly he is, but Tywin ends up just giving him the title anyway. Now Tywin does this to mollify Lysa, however at this point Robert's concerns over the issue would still be valid. The kingdom is still at war, if for whatever reason the Vale armies are needed wouldn't Tywin want someone more able in charge?

2. Possible Foreshadowing for Abandoned Plotlines

  • There's some possible foreshadowing for Jaime ending up being king.
Quote
He was more interested in the pair that came behind him: the queen's brothers, the Lannisters of Casterly Rock. The Lion and the Imp; there was no mistaking which was which. Ser Jaime Lannister was twin to Queen Cersei; tall and golden, with flashing green eyes and a smile that cut like a knife. He wore crimson silk, high black boots, a black satin cloak. On the breast of his tunic, the lion of his House was embroidered in gold thread, roaring its defiance. They called him the Lion of Lannister to his face and whispered "Kingslayer" behind his back.
Jon found it hard to look away from him. This is what a king should look like, he thought to himself as the man passed.
  • Also some foreshadowing for Tyrion becoming king, but whether this plotline has been abandoned I'm not sure.
Quote

When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king.

The issue with this is that it makes it hard for me to tell which parts I should still be regarding as foreshadowing that is going to pay off, and which parts aren't foreshadowing anymore because the plot has been discarded.

3. Weird Value of Money

Now this is an issue not just found in the first book, but it seems to be particularly bad here.

  • The main issue is the case of Anguy spending all his prize money on hookers and cocaine whores and wine. Even taking into account that he was visiting all the upper-class brothels, hiring the most expensive prostitutes and drinking the most expensive wine, it still doesn't seem feasible that he could burn through 9000 gold dragons in just a few days.
  • How did Robert manage to accumulate so much debt? Someone(s) has done the maths for this - By Popular Demand: “Who Stole Westeros?” | Race for the Iron Throne (wordpress.com). Robert would have to hold a ridiculous number of tourneys a year all with big prizes like the Hand's Tourney. But he can't have been - those prizes are noted to be well above normal tourney prizes. Aside from Balon's short-lived rebellion, the Throne hasn't been at war. There has been over a decade of peace. What was Robert spending all that money on? Hunting and feasting? And to accumulate this much debt, he'd have to have burnt through the 'full treasury' Aerys left as well. The conclusion that the writer came to, which I agree with, is that Littlefinger, not Robert, is responsible for the debt. Robert's hedonism alone still wouldn't be enough. But if what is intended by the book is that it is Robert's fault, it doesn't make any sense.
  • The Weight of the Hand's Tourney Winnings. The Hound wins the jousting, which has a 40,000 dragons prize. But how would he ever transport this without mechanical aid? The winnings are too large to just be put in purses and handed over. The winners would need carts or something else to carry them. And yet this is never mentioned. Later the Brotherhood Without Banners takes the remaining part of the Hounds Winnings. If it had been reduced to a size where he could carry it around, what on earth was he spending it on? He doesn't seem to have any hobbies or much in the way of expenses to pay...

4. Pacing

The first book (and the second and third books to an extent) is paced much more quickly than the later books. Less time is spent on 'setting the scene'. The characters move around a lot more. More happens in a single chapter. The POVs are also less spread out.

5. Characters acting differently to how they do in later books

Obviously some of this is due to character development, but even so I think some of them act a bit strangely. Jaime, to me, feels much more overtly villainous in the first book. An example is when he attacks Eddard. He is always shown to be rash and short tempered (though this starts to change with the loss of his hand). But the way in which he attacks Eddard, kills his men but then just leaves him there crippled rather than trying to kill him, seems a little odd. Maybe he thought better of killing the King's best friend, but then why did he attack in the first place? Another issue is Stannis. In the second and later books Stannis is described as being all about duty, but this doesn't line up with how he acts in the first book. There may have been a threat to his life, but his duty should still come before anything else. It doesn't matter that he was passed over for Hand. Either Stannis is just a big hypocrite or...

6. Background to Robert's Small Council/Kingsguard

Who was Master of X before the ones we see in the Book? They can't all have been present from day one. When did each member join? With some of them (Renly, Petyr) it sounds like they joined at quite a young age, but no one brings this up. Also, who was in the Kingsguard before Ser Arys Oakheart? He wasn't there since day one because he only joined in 290 AC. Was someone else in his slot or was it just left empty?

7. Other inconsistencies with later books

  • Eddard mentions that Jaime is heir to Casterly Rock. But as we all know, KG can't inherit. Why would he say this?
  • Renly's eye colour changes between this book and A Clash of Kings - he is described by Sansa as having green eyes when they meet in the Riverlands, but when Catelyn sees him at Bitterbridge he has blue eyes.

A lot of this can probably be put down to things having not been fleshed out yet, and minor oversights. But still, some of the more important things in later books actively conflict with the first book.  For example, the bit about Kingsguard not inheriting is quite important to Jaime's later plot. Why is this?

(Let me know if I missed anything. I want to make a comprehensive list.)

Edited by Craving Peaches
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

3. Weird Value of Money

Add the weight Sandor is supposed to be carrying with his winnings from the Tourney.

 

10 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

How did Robert manage to accumulate so much debt? Someone(s) has done the maths for this - By Popular Demand: “Who Stole Westeros?” | Race for the Iron Throne (wordpress.com). Robert would have to hold a ridiculous number of tourneys a year all with big prizes like the Hand's Tourney. But he can't have been - those prizes are noted to be well above normal tourney prizes. Aside from Balon's short-lived rebellion, the Throne hasn't been at war. There has been over a decade of peace. What was Robert spending all that money on? Hunting and feasting? And to accumulate this much debt, he'd have to have burnt through the 'full treasury' Aerys left as well. The conclusion that the writer came to, which I agree with, is that Littlefinger, not Robert, is responsible for the debt. Robert's hedonism alone still wouldn't be enough. But if what is intended by the book is that it is Robert's fault, it doesn't make any sense.

He must've spent his money on the same brothel as Anguy :D

Edited by Corvo the Crow
Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The Weight of the Hand's Tourney Winnings. The Hound wins the jousting, which has a 40,000 dragons prize. But how would he ever transport this without mechanical aid? The winnings are too large to just be put in purses and handed over. The winners would need carts or something else to carry them. And yet this is never mentioned. Later the Brotherhood Without Banners takes the remaining part of the Hounds Winnings. If it had been reduced to a size where he could carry it around, what on earth was he spending it on? He doesn't seem to have any hobbies or much in the way of expenses to pay...

Burn creams must've been quite expensive back then!

15 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes, there has to be some mystery brothel above even Chataya's in expense...

Well, the Chataya's is a Hand of the King level brothel as we witness by both Tyrion visiting and the secret passage for the other hand. There must be a king level one also.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Burn creams must've been quite expensive back then!

Too late for that now though!

2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Well, the Chataya's is a Hand of the King level brothel as we witness by both Tyrion visiting and the secret passage for the other hand. There must be a king level one also.

But if that's just for the King then how would Anguy and the Hound get access?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

But if that's just for the King then how would Anguy and the Hound get access?

Oh they get special privilige for winning in Hand's Tourney. Remember these two, along with Thoros, won the Joust, Archery and Melee. Where is Thoros' money? Answer is simple, he went to the same brothel. In fact, who knows perhaps they went there together!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Oh they get special privilige for winning in Hand's Tourney. Remember these two, along with Thoros, won the Joust, Archery and Melee. Where is Thoros' money? Answer is simple, he went to the same brothel. In fact, who knows perhaps they went there together!

Now I understand why Tywin is so moody. He never was able to get access to the special brothel. He wasn't king and he wasn't a winner.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Now I understand why Tywin is so moody. He never was able to get access to the special brothel. He wasn't king and he wasn't a winner.

Why do you think he tried to marry Cersei to Rhaegar the heir to kingdom and eventually married her to Robert the king? He thought he could get access to it by being a queen's father but Robert denied him that. Who knows, perhaps Rhaegar could've allowed him. Tywin, the very soul of avarice giving so much debt to Robert was because of this as well. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

George is not good with numbers. It's simple as that, from gold rewards to size of things. 

120 acres of land were valued at a lb of silver. Even at 1 gram of gold in a coin, Hound walked away with 40 kilos of gold. At ratio of 60-1 of silver to gold value he has 2400 lb of silver on him and could buy 288 000 acres of land for himself acording to medieval pricing. It's an insane sum people were handed. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

The first book, a Game of Thrones, is my favourite. However after reading all of the subsequent books and then going back to the first one, you do start to notice some oddities.

1. Things Made to be Big Problems that aren't brought up again.

  • Where was Robert Arryn going to be fostered? Casterly Rock or Dragonstone? Ned spends quite a lot of time thinking about this but after GoT it's not really mentioned again and no one seems to care.
  • Jaime becoming Warden of the East and West. Obviously this never happens because Cersei makes Daven the new Warden of the West and Robert dies, but no one else seems to even care about the possibility. Robert makes a big fuss about Robert Arryn not being WotE, because of how sickly he is, but Tywin ends up just giving him the title anyway. Now Tywin does this to mollify Lysa, however at this point Robert's concerns over the issue would still be valid. The kingdom is still at war, if for whatever reason the Vale armies are needed wouldn't Tywin want someone more able in charge?

I think these two specifically were meant to have some importance then, but not ‘now’, if that makes sense? If that is the case, then basically ‘nothing to see here’, as in, these points served a purpose and have become irrelevant as the story progressed.

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

2. Possible Foreshadowing for Abandoned Plotlines

  • There's some possible foreshadowing for Jaime ending up being king.
  • Also some foreshadowing for Tyrion becoming king, but whether this plotline has been abandoned I'm not sure.

The issue with this is that it makes it hard for me to tell which parts I should still be regarding as foreshadowing that is going to pay off, and which parts aren't foreshadowing anymore because the plot has been discarded.

I don’t really think every comparison of a character to a king is meant as a hint to said character’s future. I certainly hope no such fate awaits Tyrion, but I acknowledge I’m biased because I dislike him. I also don’t think becoming king is in the cards for Jaime… that said, I think this bit from ASoS might be a hint to Jaime’s future:

The world was simpler in those days, Jaime thought, and men as well as swords were made of finer steel. Or was it only that he had been fifteen? They were all in their graves now, the Sword of the Morning and the Smiling Knight, the White Bull and Prince Lewyn, Ser Oswell Whent with his black humor, earnest Jon Darry, Simon Toyne and his Kingswood Brotherhood, bluff old Sumner Crakehall. And me, that boy I was . . . when did he die, I wonder? When I donned the white cloak? When I opened Aerys’s throat? That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead.

 

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

3. Weird Value of Money

Now this is an issue not just found in the first book, but it seems to be particularly bad here.

  • The main issue is the case of Anguy spending all his prize money on hookers and cocaine whores and wine. Even taking into account that he was visiting all the upper-class brothels, hiring the most expensive prostitutes and drinking the most expensive wine, it still doesn't seem feasible that he could burn through 9000 gold dragons in just a few days.
  • How did Robert manage to accumulate so much debt? Someone(s) has done the maths for this - By Popular Demand: “Who Stole Westeros?” | Race for the Iron Throne (wordpress.com). Robert would have to hold a ridiculous number of tourneys a year all with big prizes like the Hand's Tourney. But he can't have been - those prizes are noted to be well above normal tourney prizes. Aside from Balon's short-lived rebellion, the Throne hasn't been at war. There has been over a decade of peace. What was Robert spending all that money on? Hunting and feasting? And to accumulate this much debt, he'd have to have burnt through the 'full treasury' Aerys left as well. The conclusion that the writer came to, which I agree with, is that Littlefinger, not Robert, is responsible for the debt. Robert's hedonism alone still wouldn't be enough. But if what is intended by the book is that it is Robert's fault, it doesn't make any sense.
  • The Weight of the Hand's Tourney Winnings. The Hound wins the jousting, which has a 40,000 dragons prize. But how would he ever transport this without mechanical aid? The winnings are too large to just be put in purses and handed over. The winners would need carts or something else to carry them. And yet this is never mentioned. Later the Brotherhood Without Banners takes the remaining part of the Hounds Winnings. If it had been reduced to a size where he could carry it around, what on earth was he spending it on? He doesn't seem to have any hobbies or much in the way of expenses to pay...

This one for me is in line w/ Martin’s line about ‘readers should put down the ruler and the stopwatch and enjoy the story’ - paraphrasing. So maybe put down your inner accountant? Or something? :D

I don’t think it matters for the story at all btw. 

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

4. Pacing

The first book (and the second and third books to an extent) is paced much more quickly than the later books. Less time is spent on 'setting the scene'. The characters move around a lot more. More happens in a single chapter. The POVs are also less spread out.

It where his gardening led him to, I suppose? 

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

5. Characters acting differently to how they do in later books

Obviously some of this is due to character development, but even so I think some of them act a bit strangely. Jaime, to me, feels much more overtly villainous in the first book. An example is when he attacks Eddard. He is always shown to be rash and short tempered (though this starts to change with the loss of his hand). But the way in which he attacks Eddard, kills his men but then just leaves him there crippled rather than trying to kill him, seems a little odd. Maybe he thought better of killing the King's best friend, but then why did he attack in the first place? Another issue is Stannis. In the second and later books Stannis is described as being all about duty, but this doesn't line up with how he acts in the first book. There may have been a threat to his life, but his duty should still come before anything else. It doesn't matter that he was passed over for Hand. Either Stannis is just a big hypocrite or...

With Jaime I think Martin wanted to make sure the reader saw the character in a certain way, and he may have turned it up to 11, so to speak. I also don’t think it matter much, if at all. 
 

Not sure what you mean about Stannis? 

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

6. Background to Robert's Small Council

Who was Master of X before the ones we see in the Book? They can't all have been present from day one. When did each member join? With some of them (Renly, Petyr) it sounds like they joined at quite a young age, but no one brings this up.

7. Other inconsistencies with later books

  • Eddard mentions that Jaime is heir to Casterly Rock. But as we all know, KG can't inherit. Why would he say this?
  • Renly's eye colour changes between this book and A Clash of Kings - he is described by Sansa as having green eyes when they meet in the Riverlands, but when Catelyn sees him at Bitterbridge he has blue eyes.

A lot of this can probably be put down to things having not been fleshed out yet, and minor oversights. But still, some of the more important things in later books actively conflict with the first book.  For example, the bit about Kingsguard not inheriting is quite important to Jaime's later plot. Why is this?

(Let me know if I missed anything. I want to make a comprehensive list.)

There are quite a few inconsistencies like these… Jamie's horse changes gender, for instance. Both this one and Renly’s eye colour have been addressed by Martin in the past; he confirmed both were just that, inconsistencies, little mistakes that slipped by. Not sure about the rest, don’t remember reading/hearing anything from him on them, but I could have missed something there. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think these two specifically were meant to have some importance then, but not ‘now’, if that makes sense? If that is the case, then basically ‘nothing to see here’, as in, these points served a purpose and have become irrelevant as the story progressed.

Probably. It just seems odd that they are a big deal for Ned but no one else.

9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t really think every comparison of a character to a king is meant as a hint to said character’s future. I certainly hope no such fate awaits Tyrion, but I acknowledge I’m biased because I dislike him. I also don’t think becoming king is in the cards for Jaime… that said, I think this bit from ASoS might be a hint to Jaime’s future:

I don't either, and I'm not sure about the Tyrion one - I certainly don't want him to be king. But I think the Jaime one meant something at some time. In the original outline Jaime did become king, so I think it could be a leftover.

10 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Not sure what you mean about Stannis?

What I mean is that Stannis sees duty and law as the most important thing. But he actively skirted his duty to Robert by going off to Dragonstone. So either Stannis wasn't conceived as this ultra-dutiful/lawful character at that point in time, or Stannis is a big hypocrite who only does his duty when it suits him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

The first book, a Game of Thrones, is my favourite. However after reading all of the subsequent books and then going back to the first one, you do start to notice some oddities.

1. Things Made to be Big Problems that aren't brought up again.

  • Where was Robert Arryn going to be fostered? Casterly Rock or Dragonstone? Ned spends quite a lot of time thinking about this but after GoT it's not really mentioned again and no one seems to care.
  • Jaime becoming Warden of the East and West. Obviously this never happens because Cersei makes Daven the new Warden of the West and Robert dies, but no one else seems to even care about the possibility. Robert makes a big fuss about Robert Arryn not being WotE, because of how sickly he is, but Tywin ends up just giving him the title anyway. Now Tywin does this to mollify Lysa, however at this point Robert's concerns over the issue would still be valid. The kingdom is still at war, if for whatever reason the Vale armies are needed wouldn't Tywin want someone more able in charge?

2. Possible Foreshadowing for Abandoned Plotlines

  • There's some possible foreshadowing for Jaime ending up being king.
  • Also some foreshadowing for Tyrion becoming king, but whether this plotline has been abandoned I'm not sure.

The issue with this is that it makes it hard for me to tell which parts I should still be regarding as foreshadowing that is going to pay off, and which parts aren't foreshadowing anymore because the plot has been discarded.

3. Weird Value of Money

Now this is an issue not just found in the first book, but it seems to be particularly bad here.

  • The main issue is the case of Anguy spending all his prize money on hookers and cocaine whores and wine. Even taking into account that he was visiting all the upper-class brothels, hiring the most expensive prostitutes and drinking the most expensive wine, it still doesn't seem feasible that he could burn through 9000 gold dragons in just a few days.
  • How did Robert manage to accumulate so much debt? Someone(s) has done the maths for this - By Popular Demand: “Who Stole Westeros?” | Race for the Iron Throne (wordpress.com). Robert would have to hold a ridiculous number of tourneys a year all with big prizes like the Hand's Tourney. But he can't have been - those prizes are noted to be well above normal tourney prizes. Aside from Balon's short-lived rebellion, the Throne hasn't been at war. There has been over a decade of peace. What was Robert spending all that money on? Hunting and feasting? And to accumulate this much debt, he'd have to have burnt through the 'full treasury' Aerys left as well. The conclusion that the writer came to, which I agree with, is that Littlefinger, not Robert, is responsible for the debt. Robert's hedonism alone still wouldn't be enough. But if what is intended by the book is that it is Robert's fault, it doesn't make any sense.
  • The Weight of the Hand's Tourney Winnings. The Hound wins the jousting, which has a 40,000 dragons prize. But how would he ever transport this without mechanical aid? The winnings are too large to just be put in purses and handed over. The winners would need carts or something else to carry them. And yet this is never mentioned. Later the Brotherhood Without Banners takes the remaining part of the Hounds Winnings. If it had been reduced to a size where he could carry it around, what on earth was he spending it on? He doesn't seem to have any hobbies or much in the way of expenses to pay...

4. Pacing

The first book (and the second and third books to an extent) is paced much more quickly than the later books. Less time is spent on 'setting the scene'. The characters move around a lot more. More happens in a single chapter. The POVs are also less spread out.

5. Characters acting differently to how they do in later books

Obviously some of this is due to character development, but even so I think some of them act a bit strangely. Jaime, to me, feels much more overtly villainous in the first book. An example is when he attacks Eddard. He is always shown to be rash and short tempered (though this starts to change with the loss of his hand). But the way in which he attacks Eddard, kills his men but then just leaves him there crippled rather than trying to kill him, seems a little odd. Maybe he thought better of killing the King's best friend, but then why did he attack in the first place? Another issue is Stannis. In the second and later books Stannis is described as being all about duty, but this doesn't line up with how he acts in the first book. There may have been a threat to his life, but his duty should still come before anything else. It doesn't matter that he was passed over for Hand. Either Stannis is just a big hypocrite or...

6. Background to Robert's Small Council

Who was Master of X before the ones we see in the Book? They can't all have been present from day one. When did each member join? With some of them (Renly, Petyr) it sounds like they joined at quite a young age, but no one brings this up.

7. Other inconsistencies with later books

  • Eddard mentions that Jaime is heir to Casterly Rock. But as we all know, KG can't inherit. Why would he say this?
  • Renly's eye colour changes between this book and A Clash of Kings - he is described by Sansa as having green eyes when they meet in the Riverlands, but when Catelyn sees him at Bitterbridge he has blue eyes.

A lot of this can probably be put down to things having not been fleshed out yet, and minor oversights. But still, some of the more important things in later books actively conflict with the first book.  For example, the bit about Kingsguard not inheriting is quite important to Jaime's later plot. Why is this?

(Let me know if I missed anything. I want to make a comprehensive list.)

6. Personally I think there was another Kingsguard before Arys Oakheart since he was mentioned as only being on the Kingsguard for about 10 years at the time of AFFC, seven years after Robert began his rule.

7. Maybe Renly has turquoise eyes or his eyes appear different colors under different light.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

7. Maybe Renly has turquoise eyes or his eyes appear different colors under different light.

This is the explanation that GRRM has given. Renly has blue-green eyes that change colour depending on what he's wearing.

16 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

6. Personally I think there was another Kingsguard before Arys Oakheart since he was mentioned as only being on the Kingsguard for about 10 years at the time of AFFC, seven years after Robert began his rule.

Would you like me to add it to the list?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

This is the explanation that GRRM has given. Renly has blue-green eyes that change colour depending on what he's wearing.

Would you like me to add it to the list?

That part might be consistent; doesn't Cersei wear a lot of green dresses to accentuate her eyes (the ones on her head that is)?

As far as adding it to the list, why not?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

This is the explanation that GRRM has given. Renly has blue-green eyes that change colour depending on what he's wearing.

That’s the explanation he came up w/ to ‘fix’ the mistake

Q: How do you keep track of all your characters?

A: My brain! (laughter) I keep notes and I remember everything in my mind. But now I have no room in my brain for other things, like remembering who the f— you people are (more laughter). I’ve met many of you and already forgotten your names! Martin mentions of course he has computer files, other helpers (I didn’t write down if he specifically mentioned Elio & Linda at Westeros.org). As is widely known, I had a horse that that changed gender from book one to book two. Renly’s eyes were green then blue, so I just made them blue-green. Apparently, eye color is the worst. “I don’t even know why I include eye color! I can’t tell what color eyes people in the front row here have! I can just tell they have eyes!”

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm also on my re-read, halfway through AGOT now!  I've been researching a lot about Quentyn Martell too, so I was surprised when I read Catelyn's chapter and she meets Ser Donnel Waynwood, who is described as being very similar, almost identical:

Quote

"The clans have grown bolder since Lord Jon died," Ser Donnel said. He was a stocky youth of twenty years, earnest and homely, with a wide nose and a shock of thick brown hair.

- Catelyn VI

Quote

Frog, the squire, was the youngest of the three, and the least impressive, a solemn, stocky lad, brown of hair and eye. His face was squarish, with a high forehead, heavy jaw, and broad nose. The stubble on his cheeks and chin made him look like a boy trying to grow his first beard. Dany had no inkling why anyone would call him Frog. Perhaps he can jump farther than the others.

Both are also solemn, or earnest. They also have strong similarities to Lothor Brune, also at the Vale, except that his hair has greyed due to age.

Quote

 Ser Lothor, she had to remind herself; the man had been knighted for his valor in the Battle of the Blackwater. Though no proper knight would wear those patched brown breeches and scuffed boots, nor that cracked and water-stained leather jerkin. A square-faced stocky man with a squashed nose and a mat of nappy grey hair, Brune spoke seldom. He is stronger than he looks, though. She could tell by the ease with which he lifted her, as if she weighed nothing at all.

- ASOS, Sansa VI

What is it with all the similar-featured unrelated people? Was George just using his favourite descriptors a lot? Or are we being led to draw some familial connection? I just thought it was odd because it's at the Vale, where Littlefinger also finds the Kettleblacks, who are very similar-looking to each other (but at least they are brothers). 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:
  • There's some possible foreshadowing for Jaime ending up being king.
  • Also some foreshadowing for Tyrion becoming king, but whether this plotline has been abandoned I'm not sure.

Not foreshadowing - backshadowing. Jaime looks like a king because he's a son of Aerys, beautiful as a dragonlord. Similar for Tyrion - I'm hoping he's a chimera, with two fathers.

15 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:
  • Renly's eye colour changes between this book and A Clash of Kings - he is described by Sansa as having green eyes when they meet in the Riverlands, but when Catelyn sees him at Bitterbridge he has blue eyes.

At a cautious minimum, grrm had a poetical sense that green was right in that scene. It's a beautiful scene, feels allegorical - Barry is white as snow, Cersei is golden as the sun, and Renly is green as the forest. (Renly is obsessed with green, like a proper king of the knights of summer should be.)

This is in conflict with the Baratheon look which is a given, but I'm guessing both ideas were important enough to stay in. As far as I know, no 'wrong' eye colour has been changed in later editions. Also - grrm isn't casual about eyes, he loves them. The very first eye colour change is Waymar's change to bright blue - an important plot point. The last one I think is Qyburn - brown to blue - and there's no fudging that one.

Edited by Springwatch
formatting
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Not foreshadowing - backshadowing. Jaime looks like a king because he's a son of Aerys, beautiful as a dragonlord.

I’m not sure on this. Cersei is definitely Aerys’ daughter(especially hinted with white palace across Blackwater thought) but Jaime could be Tywin’s. Then again, Jaime being Aerys’ would be better since him and Tyrion both would have committed  patricide.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Not foreshadowing - backshadowing. Jaime looks like a king because he's a son of Aerys, beautiful as a dragonlord. Similar for Tyrion - I'm hoping he's a chimera, with two fathers

I think, story-wise, it is best if Jaime and Cersei are Aerys' children and Tyrion is Tywin's only real son. It feels more compelling to me. Tywin's legacy completely in ruins. His two 'perfect' children not even his, the one child he hated and despised his only offspring.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...