Star Wars - Andor Spoilers (And Scot's Old Ass TV)

[Relic]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

Another Wednesday morning, another great episode. I'm gonna miss this show, after next week.

My thoughts exactly. 

[karaddin]

I guess that defensive laser thing is only particularly effective when it's a surprise, so it works on a ship like this but much less effective in a genuine military setting.

[Relic]

That twin laser was just Gilroy fulfilling Disney's laser quota. And it looked fucking cool, so, kudos. 

[Corvinus85]

44 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I guess that defensive laser thing is only particularly effective when it's a surprise, so it works on a ship like this but much less effective in a genuine military setting.

Plus there seems to be a charging time for the Fondor's defenses, or maybe the twin lasers. So it's not a ship that can jump into battle at a moment's notice.

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, karaddin said:

LV - either you're missing some of the comments or the show isn't doing as good a job of making it clear as I thought I remembered, but Felice's point is pretty much what it's meant to be. The Republic is getting absolutely hammered at multiple times through the series, the Jedi are just basically the hero units that swoop in and squash an area, but it frequently goes to shit again as soon as they leave. There are definitely cases in the show of them losing and having to pull out of the planet they're on as well, there's one relatively early where Ahsoka thinks she can turn the battle and Anakin+OBW have to yank her platoon out right before they get sandwiched from behind. There are others as well, and definitely plenty of off screen defeats. Given how much of their time is spent recapturing planets that have fallen, there had to be a defeat in the first place to need to recapture it.

I think that's too favorable a take on the show.

Yes, there are references to Republic defeats, but literally no plan of the Separatists ever works, not even stuff the Sith plan, presumably with the intention that Dooku's factions gains the upper hand in the given situation.

Separatist victories always happen offscreen, or as a backstory to an eventual Republic victory (Ryloth's fall to the Separatists), or as a plot device to show Ahsoka's inexperience. Darth Maul is later much more efficient than Dooku and Grievous ever were.

While I've no trouble seeing Anakin and Obi-Wan saving the day occasionally, it could have been great to depict their interventions being more about turning a crushing defeat into an ordered retreat, saving crucial troops, people, equipment, resources, etc.

The comparison I think about there are the old Clone Wars comics which have the Jedi more caught up in impossible situations - there is the long Jabiim arc which is basically the Republic's Vietnam, Obi-Wan is presumed dead for a time, being a prisoner who is tortured by Ventress, we have Yoda trying to figure out a situation with an old friend which in the end only leads to an entire sector declaring for the CIS.

Also, of course, the fact that the entire war is rigged should have allowed the Sith to kill more Jedi than they actually do.

Then there is the issue that the show present the CIS operatives mostly as cartoon villains while the actual faction are just regular people like the Republic guys - the show should have shown more actual CIS generals/leaders who aren't Sith acolytes or droids while also showing Republic generals (Tarkin-type characters) who are clearly evil, commit war crimes, and have to be stopped by the Jedi.

[Corvinus85]

Andor is a show that doesn't need Jedi or other magical aspects of SW. But I am wondering if Luthen wasn't a Jedi. Where did he acquire his impressive skillsets? He's been fighting the Empire since its inception. Could Luthen be one of those Jedi that decided to lay low by not using the Force, but unlike Kanan, Ahsoka or Cal Kestis, he closed off his mind to injustices and decided on a path of ruthlessness which has no room for the Jedi code. The speech at the end of the last episode, his calm under pressure in this episode makes me think he was a Jedi. But he could have simply been a Republic intelligence officer or some other kind of warrior.

[Kalbear]

5 hours ago, karaddin said:

I guess that defensive laser thing is only particularly effective when it's a surprise, so it works on a ship like this but much less effective in a genuine military setting.

Exactly. The Fondor is the kind of spy vehicle that spies talk about having. It's not an Aston Martin - that'd be too obvious and attract attention. It's a VW Jetta. It is a very custom shitty-looking craft with a bunch of modifications that aren't that special on their own but can be used to get out of danger in specific times. If someone's expecting them they won't be that special, and it can't take on significant force, but it can be used to get out of a pinch in exactly this sort of way. And it probably won't work after this; the flechette cannon likely has countermeasures (like an easy shield around the tractor dish) or they'll just shoot things later on.

18 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Andor is a show that doesn't need Jedi or other magical aspects of SW. But I am wondering if Luthen wasn't a Jedi. Where did he acquire his impressive skillsets? He's been fighting the Empire since its inception. Could Luthen be one of those Jedi that decided to lay low by not using the Force, but unlike Kanan, Ahsoka or Cal Kestis, he closed off his mind to injustices and decided on a path of ruthlessness which has no room for the Jedi code. The speech at the end of the last episode, his calm under pressure in this episode makes me think he was a Jedi. But he could have simply been a Republic intelligence officer or some other kind of warrior.

I really, really, REALLY hope that this isn't remotely the case. I want there to be room for very competent, intelligent and skilled people in the Star Wars universe who have absolutely nothing to do with the Jedi. I am happy if he's force-sensitive - because on some level I think everyone is in the SW universe - but I am so very tired of declaring any hero as Jedi or ex-Jedi or anything like that. 

Honestly if they have to make him a force user I want him to be involved with the Sith. Which makes zero sense given how high profile he is on Coruscant, but I'd much rather see him be a rival of Palpatine than any kind of Jedi. But mostly I want him just to be a driven zealot who has seen how bad the Empire can be and knows how bad it will become if they let it.

[Ran]

@Corvinus85

I kind of hope he's not a Jedi, but some things are pointing to it. The kyber crystal, that line in his speech about sharing the dream of ghosts...

I'd like one of these shows to not feature Force users, but at the same time, they're an important part of the narrative of Star Wars, and I guess there's something neat about this warrior-monk deliberately walking the path of darkness to start the seed of the Rebellion. 

I did think the cane he used was suspiciously like a lightsaber hilt, and it's quite long -- so I thought, well, it could be one part contains the retractable walking stick, and the other side is in fact a lightsaber. However, the Black Series figure for Luthen reveals that in fact the top part of the hilt can be removed to reveal a hidden knife, so my initial thought that in fact it's a disguised lightsaber seems wrong. Though does that matter, I guess? If he's burying his Jedi past, he can't have a lightsaber on his person, hidden or not.

To me, what's likelier is he's some sort of former Republic intelligence officer or some such who had operated under deep cover, and managed to avoid the purges and so on. You definitely do not have to be a Jedi to be a competent person.

[Corvinus85]

4 minutes ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

Exactly. The Fondor is the kind of spy vehicle that spies talk about having. It's not an Aston Martin - that'd be too obvious and attract attention. It's a VW Jetta. It is a very custom shitty-looking craft with a bunch of modifications that aren't that special on their own but can be used to get out of danger in specific times. If someone's expecting them they won't be that special, and it can't take on significant force, but it can be used to get out of a pinch in exactly this sort of way. And it probably won't work after this; the flechette cannon likely has countermeasures (like an easy shield around the tractor dish) or they'll just shoot things later on.

Luthen's fight with the cruiser was a mini version of everything he's been doing in the show. When the commander of the cruiser ordered the intensity of the tractor beam to increase because he thought Luthen was trying to escape, he used that against them. Those shards came at the cruiser with much greater speed than otherwise. They had no chance of raising shields.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want Luthen to be a Jedi either, but there are clues pointing in that direction. 

7 minutes ago, Ran said:

I did think the cane he used was suspiciously like a lightsaber hilt, and it's quite long -- so I thought, well, it could be one part contains the retractable walking stick, and the other side is in fact a lightsaber. However, the Black Series figure for Luthen reveals that in fact the top part of the hilt can be removed to reveal a hidden knife, so my initial thought that in fact it's a disguised lightsaber seems wrong. Though does that matter, I guess? If he's burying his Jedi past, he can't have a lightsaber on his person, hidden or not.

He did seem to care for his retractable stick when Saw's man searched him. I don't think it's a disguised lightsaber, I think it's exactly what it looks to be, but meant to look like a lightsaber, as a way of trolling people.

[RumHam]

I don't mind if he was a Jedi. I don't think we've really seen a Jedi who betrayed their ideals to fight the empire. Obi-Wan might not have been willing to take the risk of helping people, but this guy ordered Andor's death didn't he? Plus the ambush thing. 

As long as he doesn't whip out a lightsaber and redeem himself saving the day I'm fine with it. and I don't think there's any risk of anything like that happening. 

[Jaxom 1974]

Honestly the best thing would be if they leave it absolutely open ended and have to make you wonder if he was, all the while knowing it doesn't matter if it was true.  Let it be ambiguous. 

[Ran]

43 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I don't mind if he was a Jedi. I don't think we've really seen a Jedi who betrayed their ideals to fight the empire. Obi-Wan might not have been willing to take the risk of helping people, but this guy ordered Andor's death didn't he? Plus the ambush thing. 

As long as he doesn't whip out a lightsaber and redeem himself saving the day I'm fine with it. and I don't think there's any risk of anything like that happening. 

Good way of thinking about it. But I agree with @Jaxom 1974, leave it ambiguous if they're going to leave his background up in the air.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Who thinks Luthen will make it to next season?

[mormont]

I'm doubtful it happens in the finale, but at some point, either Luthen will sacrifice himself to save Mon Mothma, or Mon Mothma will betray him for the good of the Rebellion. IMO anyway. That's the way the arc is going.

Bix, though, could well die in the finale. If not, she'll be a much changed character, whose ultimate fate is sealed. By the end of this series, all the Ferrix characters are probably going to be gone.

[Ran]

5 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Who thinks Luthen will make it to next season?

I do. Just from a narrative sense, I can't see his story concluding in the final episode, he's too central to tying together various threads.  But also

Spoiler

Skarsgård said he was preparing to film the second season this autumn.

I absolutely agree that Luthen will not survive the series, though. He told us that he knows his role has only one end -- at some point the Empire will get enough information together to come after him, and he will die so that the rebellion might live. 

[Werthead]

The logical thing is for Luthen to die and the Empire to think he's the core of the Rebellion and think the Rebellion has been crushed, which gives the Alliance a few months to really get moving. If they killed him mid-Season 2 and ended Season 2 with the declaration of the Alliance, that would be a good way of doing it.

Quote

Then there is the issue that the show present the CIS operatives mostly as cartoon villains while the actual faction are just regular people like the Republic guys - the show should have shown more actual CIS generals/leaders who aren't Sith acolytes or droids while also showing Republic generals (Tarkin-type characters) who are clearly evil, commit war crimes, and have to be stopped by the Jedi.

There's several good-to-neutral CIS characters in the show. There's the guy who fancies Amidala who gets killed off in the banking clan arc, there's also a couple of ambassadors early on who try to work to establish a peace treaty based on Republic recognition of the Separatists and so on. It's not a major thing but they do work at it a bit.

The Bad Batch - which I've just started watching - leans into this a bit more with hints that it might be former Separatists who form the very first rebel cells against the Empire, since they already have hardware, ships etc at hand, and only really lose the opportunity to continue the Clone Wars because their droid armies are disabled. So the initial resistance to the Empire comes from Separatist forces and disaffected Republic forces (either direct or allied, like Saw Gerrera), fighting separately and presumably later on together, which is ironic.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Werthead said:

There's several good-to-neutral CIS characters in the show. There's the guy who fancies Amidala who gets killed off in the banking clan arc, there's also a couple of ambassadors early on who try to work to establish a peace treaty based on Republic recognition of the Separatists and so on. It's not a major thing but they do work at it a bit.

The CIS is not shown as a proper political entity until the introduction of the Bonterris and Raxus in season 3. And even after that we rarely get any non-droid, non-Sith operative CIS commanders. Eventually it is clear that they are just Republic, possibly even one where, legally speaking, the citizens have more liberties and freedoms, and the hierarchies are not as strict ... but of course this is all a sham insofar as the war is concerned since Tyranus and his people run that without any real oversight from whatever political structures the CIS actually established.

It seems they technically outsourced the war to the companies who provided them with their droid armies.

Rush Clovis was an interesting character and I really like the Banking Clan arc ... but that comes very late in the show.

Conceptually, the war was dumbed down for the younger audience into 'Republic/Jedi=good (sans Palpatine)' and 'Separatist=evil' when in fact both the earlier books and comics as well as the opening crawl of ROTS made it clear that there were heroes and both sides and evil everywhere.

On a narrative level the show would have worked better if it had been really evident that the CIS was a real threat, that they had real power and could potentially conquer or destroy the Republic for good. The great part of the Imperial era is that the Rebels really are the underdogs ... now, the Jedi/Republic wouldn't be that during the Clone Wars, but the Separatists should have been their equals ... at least their top commanders and generals should have been. We should have gotten episodes where Grievous sent the Jedi running and vice versa. Instead we get basically just vice versa there.

Part of the problem there is the episodic (and originally non-chronological) writing of the show, of course.

4 hours ago, Werthead said:

The Bad Batch - which I've just started watching - leans into this a bit more with hints that it might be former Separatists who form the very first rebel cells against the Empire, since they already have hardware, ships etc at hand, and only really lose the opportunity to continue the Clone Wars because their droid armies are disabled. So the initial resistance to the Empire comes from Separatist forces and disaffected Republic forces (either direct or allied, like Saw Gerrera), fighting separately and presumably later on together, which is ironic.

Yes, that is a good continuation/elaboration of that plotline, especially that they go back and visit Raxus in that show. They also have Raxus (as Raxus Secundus, a very nice touch since Raxus Prime is established as a waste world in the EU) in the new 'Tales of the Jedi' shorts.

It is a pity that TCW didn't more explore the CIS people since it seems obvious that many of the more idealistic democrats/egalitarians in the late Republic would have fallen for Dooku's lies. It is never shown but the obvious interpretation that the Republic fell because Palpatine was able to split 'the democratic faction' within the Senate by pushing most of the 'true Republicans' into Dooku's arms. Had that not happened, Padmé, Bail Organa, and Mon Mothma may have had enough allies to stop the creation of the Empire.

If they had had more time - or cared to explore this more in the episodes they had - we could have seen the origins of certain rebel leaders (General Rieekan, say) and factions in the CIS. But they definitely failed to establish sympathetic Separatists people/races who were oppressed by the Republic both before and during the war. The Bonterris are the ruling class, after all. We constantly get innocents suffering at the hands of 'evil Separatists' but never actually see that happening from the Republic.

There is also a glaring plothole or loose end with TCW never dealing with the CIS capital world and actual government of Raxus. ROTS presents the corporate cabal around Nute Gunray as the governing body of the CIS ... something that's clearly not (yet) the case in TCW. Thus it could have been great if there had been an arc where Darth Tyranus abandons all pretense in the CIS ... say, because it is revealed how closely he works with the corporations behind his own governments back (Lux Bonterri could have been crucial in all that), forcing him to abolish his Senate and handing power directly to his corporation buddies. This would then also be the moment where the Republic purges their Senate of Lott Dod and the other corporation lackeys, making the Trade Federation, etc. no longer technically 'neutral' but a clear enemy of the Republic.

It also seems clear that Palpatine could only end up running things the way he did because he destroyed both the democratic opposition as well as potential (and actual) rivals among the megacorporations by pushing them into camp Dooku.

[SpaceChampion]

Neat detail.

 

[Heartofice]

22 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

Neat detail.

 

Oh wow that is awesome! I knew I’d seen that weird satellite dish design before somewhere 

[IFR]

Good episode. The care this show takes in crafting small details and character moments is excellent.

Luthen and Mon Mothma are fantastic characters.

I have a tendency to nitpick, and I very much appreciate that the writers clearly gave a lot of thought to the writing. Critically analyzing this show is rewarded, not punished, because there is depth.

It's a pleasure. But it's a shame that this show isn't more representative of the Star Wars universe.

I can see how people really involve themselves with a vast franchise. This show has given me a hunger to experience more of the universe. I saw Rogue One and thought it was pretty decent. I also tried watching The Clone Wars and that turned out to be quite a silly show, clearly made for an audience of young children - I made it through two episodes and even though they were short, it was an excruciating journey. The Mandalorian was much better, but still far from a great show and I dropped it after a couple of episodes.

I think I just have to come to terms with the fact that Andor is an aberration. This can be more fairly stated as a Gilroy universe rather than a Lucas universe.