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Star Wars - Andor Spoilers (And Scot's Old Ass TV)


Relic

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5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

isn't something the good guys should or would do in Star Wars.

Don't worry, I'm sure Disney will give you a LOT more of the dumbed down black and white good vs evil stuff you seem to want out of this IP. 

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5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I could have been more succinct there. What I meant is that the prison break's sole purpose ended up being effecting/shaping Cassian on the inside. It changed him, to be sure. But as a plotline it could have been more if there had been actual rebels or rebel sympathizers in the prison and/or on the outside, helping the guys to escape.

Cassian now just stumbles into the rebel orbit again because his mother dies and he returns back home.

Yes, that does seem to be one of the purposes of that event, maybe the main purpose. But isn't that the actual core to this show and the point of the season? Cassian is the central character and the main arc of the season is about how he finds meaning in the rebellion and moves away from being a selfish rogue to fighting for a greater cause. The prison break is central to his understanding of how the Empire works and what his role is and his motivation.
On top of that we've already had Aldhani as an event that sends shockwaves through the empire, and I'm sure the riot on Ferrix is sure to create even more turmoil. The prison break doesn't need to be more than it is, and a lot of its repercussions might be seen later or off screen.

I also don't think Cassian 'stumbles' into the rebel orbit, he very consciously makes moves that bring him back into it.
 

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The show began and basically finished Mon's arc with her having financial problems. There was no development in her character or her story, merely a depiction. We now know she has a husband and a daughter and a cousin who is an actual rebel ... and that's it. We know nothing about her family, actually. Are her husband and daughter the people we think they are ... or not? Is there any depth to them, or are they just as vapid and ignorant of Mon's actual doings and character as they appear? We don't know.

The show could have had her understand certain things better or in a different role, could have challenged her own view of herself and her role as Madam Financier, she could have learned more about the Empire and its methods, the ISB could have tied her to some things, and she, in turn, could have been aware of that, causing her to do something.

Mon's storyline in this season was slow I agree and it did feel like it was spinning it's wheels in certain episodes, however I also am leaving judgement till next season. We don't know what her role is going to be but almost certainly events will accelerate and bring her more into the rebellion directly. I'm not sure what the rush is to see this. 

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

An assassination plot as such could have made sense if Cassian had somehow acquired some really sensitive information - say, overhearing a conversation between Luthen and Mon Mothma, learning Vel's true identity, etc. Him just knowing Luthen's face shouldn't be enough. It feels petty and overly paranoid.

While I felt the assassination part of the plot in the finale was not very well established and seemed a bit of a turn around from Luthen, I think it's reflective of his own lack of trust of everyone, that has been demonstrated throughout the show. He doesn't know if he can trust Cassian and certainly doesn't know where his head is at, for all Luthen knows Cassian is still the money motivated cutpurse he approached. He can't have someone like that running around if he knows what Luthen looks like. 

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7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is actually also a pretty ugly take on things. For the sake of some mid-tier ISB mole an active Rebel cell is to be sacrificed. They are not yet fighting an open war - there you really need agents on the other side and stuff. But right now it seems more dangerous for the cause to see the Empire destroy active Rebel cells than possibly identifying a mole. Even more so since one imagines that there should have been ways to protect the mole.

Not to mention, you know, that sensitive information you cannot use because it would give away the source is, in the end, not really useful information. All Luthen could do with that was, apparently, nothing.

A mid-level ISB mole who continues to feed information to the Rebellion.  The key is not acting on every piece of information he sends out.  The key is to keep him in place so that when they really need his information and when that information will hurt the Empire the most he is able to provide it.  

That was the whole point of Luthen’s speech in Episode 10.  That he wouldn’t let the mole out because his value is what he might find in the position not what he has found.  Yes, it is cynical and dark.  What Luthen is doing in seeking to encourage Imperial oppression is cynical and dark he knows that and admits that.  

Did you miss Luthen’s speech?

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2 hours ago, Relic said:

Don't worry, I'm sure Disney will give you a LOT more of the dumbed down black and white good vs evil stuff you seem to want out of this IP. 

I agree.  The easy dichotomy of “Rebels good” v “Empire bad” will absolutely continue to be done by Disney.  They will also provide cute kids doing clever twee stuff to destroy the mean and incompetent Imperials.

@Lord Varys just be patient.  What I’m surprised by is the idea that in a story Universe that literally spans a Galaxy you don’t think there is room for morally grey stories that recognize rebellions and wars aren’t fought and win with perfectly clean hands.

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2 hours ago, Heartofice said:

While I felt the assassination part of the plot in the finale was not very well established and seemed a bit of a turn around from Luthen, I think it's reflective of his own lack of trust of everyone, that has been demonstrated throughout the show. He doesn't know if he can trust Cassian and certainly doesn't know where his head is at, for all Luthen knows Cassian is still the money motivated cutpurse he approached. He can't have someone like that running around if he knows what Luthen looks like. 

Luthen seems like someone who dislikes what he has become.  He sees his role as that of a necessary evil.  But he does stare at the “evil” part with his eyes wide open. 

He admits his own behavior with Cassian is strange.  He gets back to Couresant and sees he has made a mistake revealing himself to Cassian… then Cassian really does help pull off the dream heist at Aldhani.  

I think Luthen despite his protestations that he is a stone cold killer is a true cynic.  A disappointed idealist who is doing whatever he believes necessary to allow others to live by the disappointing ideals he has had to set aside to fight the Empire.  

What is really interesting to me is how he always softens to Cassian.  He really likes Cass and I can’t decide if he likes Cass because Cass always seems to instinctively make the hard decisions without losing an element of Hope or if Cass just reminds him of himself and is really very good at what he does.  

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3 hours ago, Heartofice said:

While I felt the assassination part of the plot in the finale was not very well established and seemed a bit of a turn around from Luthen,

I don't understand this, at all. It was established back in episode 7 in a conversation between Vel and Kleya. 

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So I thought the finale was excellent. Maybe it wasn't the best episode of the season but, whatever, it was still gripping.

Overall I think I'm agreeing with most people saying the whole season was fantastic. I'd pretty much given up on getting anything good from the Star Wars universe but this series was the kind of thing I've been waiting for for years. It's just a shame we're only getting the two series. Can we just get everyone involved with Andor to do whatever Star Wars movie Disney have planned next?

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9 hours ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

Again, if you want to rewrite the entire story, sure! But it doesn't make sense in the context of the actual story. Him being recruited after the prison when he had no reason to be on that pleasure planet at that point or anything like that makes no sense. Bix isn't involved there either. Maarva doesn't see the crackdown on Ferrix at that point either. None of this makes sense; this feels like you are just ignoring huge parts of the actual plot because it doesn't fit your viewpoint. 

LOL, no. I'm not talking rewriting, I'm just talking about reordering the arcs. Say, we have Cassian killing the guards, him fleeing his home planet, and being arrested as a tourist before he is hired by Luthen after the prison break. It could have been the same story on the outside.

The prison story is just nice character-building and depiction of the Imperial prison system, but nothing more. But it could have been more without the story changing significantly. Or are you saying it was absolutely necessary for the plot to work that nobody learns about this prison break afterwards or that Cassian doesn't meet and Rebels or Rebel sympathizers in prison?

9 hours ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

They didn't explicitly state that Luthen had a fucking rad ship until they showed it. This is like objecting that he doesn't have a speeder bike. You don't show these things and set them up like some clumsy Chekov's contingency plan. 

LOL, this is not the same. Murdering one of your co-workers, a guy you specifically hired because of his talents, isn't a tiny thing. The only reason given for this is that he is a potential security risk. And my point was and remains that there should have been less lethal ways to ensure that. If any potential rebel operative is viewed as a potential victim of rebel assassination then the organization should have been doomed from the start.

It also reflects very badly on the guys running this if the only way to protect the Rebellion is to murder people who they think they cannot trust.

As I said, if Palpatine could keep his true identity and plans secret from an entire galaxy, the Jedi included, Luthen should also be able to remain anonymous.

The show actually fails to establish what exactly the risk there is? Luthen moves about the Empire without anyone apparently suspecting what he is doing, so he shouldn't be on a list of potential rebel leaders/sympathizers, or else ISB would watch him even more closely than they watch Mon Mothma.

Now, the murder plot could have worked better if Vel had been instructed to take Cassian out from the start. Making this an afterthought is weird, too. The guy could have already talked whenever they caught up with him, no?

In context it feels even more petty in light of the fact that Cassian actually saved the mission repeatedly, preventing a crucial treason in the end.

9 hours ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

One thing he does do is make sure no prisoners were taken. Another thing he does is find out what Andor is up to.

The former does undermine the Rebellion as a movement.

9 hours ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

Okay, here's the real crux of the problem: you simply do not like this style of story in Star Wars. And that's fine! But all of your quibbles are basically justiifcation for this emotional value that you place. They aren't based on the story or the facts or anything like that; they're basically saying that you don't like this. I can do this for the rest of your post too, but it all boils down to you not liking this kind of storyline and then complaining about the excellent way they executed a story that you don't actually like.

LOL, no. I like the show well enough. But I do point its weak points as I see it. And it has a lot of those in the end.

6 hours ago, Denvek said:

Lonnie is absolutely a high-tier mole - he gets into meetings run by the head of the entire Bureau. Mid-tier would be more like the guy Cinta shanks. I can absolutely see the logic that Lonnie is more important to Luthen than Kriege is.

That's wrong. Partagaz ain't running the ISB. Yularen might, although that's not clear, either. He is the guy who talked to the Emperor yesterday. Partagaz is a department head, and the people working for him are lesser department heads or agents in charge of a particular sector. How far down the line somebody like Dedra is you see in the end - she doesn't have much manpower with her when she goes to Ferrix, no?

Kreegyr is an actual rebel with an operation. Lonnie is just a mole, and a potential double agent at that. They could capture him any day, if he makes a mistake at work, etc. Sacrificing your own to protect him just feels callous and stupid. And if their sole ISB mole is so badly placed that whatever information they get from him will inevitably traced back to him - no idea how this even makes sense considering we, the audience, know how many of Lonnie's colleagues knew about this whole thing - then he isn't worth much. They would only be able to use the information he gives them once.

I understand what they want to establish there - the Rebellion is in constant danger, they have to make sacrifices and tough choices, etc. But the scenario as given is just not very convincing.

6 hours ago, Ran said:

Indeed, and the whole point from Luthen's perspective is that by giving him tips on things that are not too harmful, he will rise yet higher in the ranks, and become privy to more and more valuable information. He's already high-value, worth more than any cell of Rebels, and that value can go higher still if they work things right.

The inherent dilemma would only get worse the higher he gets. They couldn't act on any information they receive from him if it is ever more clearer then who the Rebel source would be.

6 hours ago, Ran said:

I'd guess the only persons more valuable right now than Lonnie is Mon Mothma and Luthen himself. If push cames to shove, Luthen would sacrifice him to protect her or himself.

Mon Mothma's only importance seems to be that of (unwilling) terrorist financier (she doesn't even approve of what Luthen is doing with her money). She doesn't do any leading or organizing or orchestrating herself. If she were to fall, it should cost the Rebellion money, but not much else. At least that's the impression the show creates.

Hence, Luthen should rather sacrifice Mon Mothma than himself - because she cannot and doesn't do what he does, and one imagines that there are other rich people the Rebellion can milk for money.

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4 hours ago, Relic said:

Don't worry, I'm sure Disney will give you a LOT more of the dumbed down black and white good vs evil stuff you seem to want out of this IP. 

LOL, as I wrote out above I wanted an adult show depicting political themes in a meaningful manner.

My biggest criticism isn't tiny plot details ... but the childish way in which politics were depicted. If all these grown-ups can say 'the Empire is evil' and 'oppression won't work' then there isn't much substance to the Rebellion.

4 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Yes, that does seem to be one of the purposes of that event, maybe the main purpose. But isn't that the actual core to this show and the point of the season? Cassian is the central character and the main arc of the season is about how he finds meaning in the rebellion and moves away from being a selfish rogue to fighting for a greater cause. The prison break is central to his understanding of how the Empire works and what his role is and his motivation.
On top of that we've already had Aldhani as an event that sends shockwaves through the empire, and I'm sure the riot on Ferrix is sure to create even more turmoil. The prison break doesn't need to be more than it is, and a lot of its repercussions might be seen later or off screen.

Yes and no. I never said the prison story was bad for Cassian's character building. It was great in this regard.

But we cannot hide behind 'But the show is named Andor!' when Mon Mothma is basically the other main character and there are a ton of supporting characters who the writers clearly focus on.

And most of those stories lead nowhere so far when they could actually have been better inconnected with the bigger picture - Cassian Andor, in this case, since him being the titular character definitely means he should be at the center of this story.

I mean, just take Syril. How many scenes with him did we get? A lot. And where did his story lead? Nowhere, so far.

Also, go back and read how people's minds started to think about certain characters because there might be more to this or that than met the eye - but so far nothing of that happened. We see that with the Mothmas - they seem to be just the bland and vapid and ignorant people they appeared to be when they were first introduced.

The prison break should have not escaped the ISB's notice, and one imagines that footage from the prison should also have allowed them to identify Cassian as being involved in the prison break. Vice versa, it would have been nice to see if the prison break would have been more than an episode of Cassian - he could have made contacts there which helped him reconnect with the Rebels.

4 hours ago, Heartofice said:

I also don't think Cassian 'stumbles' into the rebel orbit, he very consciously makes moves that bring him back into it.

He stumbles into it because the Rebels are on Ferrix. Had they not been there, he would have been forced to search them out and he had literally no way to do that, no contacts, etc.

4 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Mon's storyline in this season was slow I agree and it did feel like it was spinning it's wheels in certain episodes, however I also am leaving judgement till next season. We don't know what her role is going to be but almost certainly events will accelerate and bring her more into the rebellion directly. I'm not sure what the rush is to see this. 

I'm not talking about rushing things, I'm talking about development and substance. There wasn't any. We know when and how Mon Mothma will leave the Senate and act as the (or an) official leader of the Rebellion - that already happened in Rebels. But we could certainly have seen more of her political life and her official opposition of Palpatine's policies within the legal framework of the Empire. Instead, nearly everything we saw was her domestic life and her financial troubles.

It also feels kind of odd to assume that Mon couldn't avoid her driver to, you know, pull a Darth Sidious and meet with her associates somewhere in private. If Palpatine couldn't avoid his own driver, I guess he would have neither become Chancellor nor been able to set up the Clone Wars.

That is not to say that we shouldn't see her pay a visit to Luthen's shop officially - but it is very odd that this is truly their only means of communication.

4 hours ago, Heartofice said:

While I felt the assassination part of the plot in the finale was not very well established and seemed a bit of a turn around from Luthen, I think it's reflective of his own lack of trust of everyone, that has been demonstrated throughout the show. He doesn't know if he can trust Cassian and certainly doesn't know where his head is at, for all Luthen knows Cassian is still the money motivated cutpurse he approached. He can't have someone like that running around if he knows what Luthen looks like. 

As has been said, it was set up much earlier.

My criticism there is that seeing how many Rebel sympathizers there are on Ferrix, especially close to Cassian's mother, they should have realized then and there that murdering that guy would be just stupid and petty.

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

A mid-level ISB mole who continues to feed information to the Rebellion.  The key is not acting on every piece of information he sends out.  The key is to keep him in place so that when they really need his information and when that information will hurt the Empire the most he is able to provide it.  

That was the whole point of Luthen’s speech in Episode 10.  That he wouldn’t let the mole out because his value is what he might find in the position not what he has found.  Yes, it is cynical and dark.  What Luthen is doing in seeking to encourage Imperial oppression is cynical and dark he knows that and admits that.  

Did you miss Luthen’s speech?

Oh, I understand why he wouldn't let him leave. I also understand, in principle, why one would want to protect a crucial source. I just find that this particular plotline bad at this point since sacrificing actual Rebels who put their lives on the line by fighting the Empire to protect Imperial swine who try to wiggle out of their mole duties just isn't the way to build an organization to inspire enough people to overthrow the Empire.

As I already said - it isn't even convincing that Lonnie would be identified because of this. Lots of ISB agents knew the information he provided Luthen with. And one imagines that even more people outside the conference room knew about it, namely the people finding and interrogating the guy from Kreegyr's team, the people staging the accident, etc.

There should have been ways to salvage the operation. The dichotomy as presented - if we don't sacrifice Kreegyr's team Lonnie will most likely be exposed - is not really convincing in context.

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

 

@Lord Varys just be patient.  What I’m surprised by is the idea that in a story Universe that literally spans a Galaxy you don’t think there is room for morally grey stories that recognize rebellions and wars aren’t fought and win with perfectly clean hands.

It is not about perfectly clean hands. It is about getting your hands only dirty when it is necessary. Murdering Cassian seems petty to me, just as sacrificing Kreegyr's gang.

If they had set those things up better - by making Luthen appear less paranoid about his own safety and Cassian have more knowledge about the Rebellion than he does in the show - then it would have worked better.

Ditto with the ISB mole. If Partagaz had been the mole things could have been different.

The moment Luthen knows that ISB has figured out that a guy doing what he does exist, he should have taken steps to replace himself by arranging to set up a guy who does his job without the two of them knowing each other. New structures and routines should have been put in place so that Luthen would only have obsolete information about the actual Rebel cells, etc. once they finally caught up with him.

I mean, Cassian cannot be the only dangling thread that could lead the Empire to Luthen. The guy seems to be doing a lot of stuff, and the Rebels themselves cannot really be trusted in light of the betrayal after Aldhani.

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3 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Luthen seems like someone who dislikes what he has become.  He sees his role as that of a necessary evil.  But he does stare at the “evil” part with his eyes wide open. 

He admits his own behavior with Cassian is strange.  He gets back to Couresant and sees he has made a mistake revealing himself to Cassian… then Cassian really does help pull off the dream heist at Aldhani.  

I think Luthen despite his protestations that he is a stone cold killer is a true cynic.  A disappointed idealist who is doing whatever he believes necessary to allow others to live by the disappointing ideals he has had to set aside to fight the Empire.  

What is really interesting to me is how he always softens to Cassian.  He really likes Cass and I can’t decide if he likes Cass because Cass always seems to instinctively make the hard decisions without losing an element of Hope or if Cass just reminds him of himself and is really very good at what he does.  

So you do think he's a secret Jedi, eh?  :P

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53 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

As I already said - it isn't even convincing that Lonnie would be identified because of this. Lots of ISB agents knew the information he provided Luthen with. And one imagines that even more people outside the conference room knew about it, namely the people finding and interrogating the guy from Kreegyr's team, the people staging the accident, etc.

There should have been ways to salvage the operation. The dichotomy as presented - if we don't sacrifice Kreegyr's team Lonnie will most likely be exposed - is not really convincing in context.

The risk of Lonnie being discovered was there.  The lives of 50 low level partians were not worth the risk of Lonnie being exposed as the mole.  Now… what is interesting is the idea of Lonnie betraying Luthen in a futile effort to save his family from both the Rebellion and the Empire…

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13 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

So you do think he's a secret Jedi, eh?  :P

Actually I don’t think he’s a secret Jedi… but I think he was associated with the Jedi in some way… hence the meaning associated with the Kyber Crystal he gives to Cassian that Cassian returns.  

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27 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

The risk of Lonnie being discovered was there.  The lives of 50 low level partians were not worth the risk of Lonnie being exposed as the mole.  Now… what is interesting is the idea of Lonnie betraying Luthen in a futile effort to save his family from both the Rebellion and the Empire…

Feel like something right out of a Cold War spy novel...oh wait...

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11 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

The risk of Lonnie being discovered was there.  The lives of 50 low level partians were not worth the risk of Lonnie being exposed as the mole.  Now… what is interesting is the idea of Lonnie betraying Luthen in a futile effort to save his family from both the Rebellion and the Empire…

That is the story, but I think that reflects poorly on all the people involved. The risk of discovery is always there, and if it already viewed as so high that passing on the information to Kreegyr would inevitably lead to Lonnie's discovery then their dreams of him rising higher through the ranks are just that - dreams. After all, this would mean that Lonnie is already watched by the ISB.

I mean, seriously - couldn't they set it up so that it appeared that other circumstances caused Kreegyr's gang to abandon the mission? There are lots of reasons why such a mission might be abandoned at the last minute, none of which would point the ISB to a mole in their own ranks. Or are we to assume that everytime something doesn't happen as a captured source said it would means there must be a mole in their own ranks? Go back to Aldhani - they nearly didn't go through with the mission at the last moment. If we pretend for a moment somebody had informed the Empire about the operation ... do we have to conclude that they would have to believe a mole told them that they knew about their operation and expected them if the Rebels had abandoned it? Of course not. That is not a given. You only think about a mole if there is a good reason to think in that direction, namely, when you actually have good reason to believe that there is a leak in your own department. And the show didn't establish that Lonnie is suspected of being a mole.

Alternatively, there is the possibility of a scapegoat. If Lonnie is so important to the Rebellion, they should set up a patsy taking the fall for Lonnie's indiscretions if push came to shove. Planting false evidence on somebody shouldn't be that hard, no?

Mind you, I've no problem with there being Rebels who get their hands dirty. But the focus there should be on them murdering Imperials, Imperial sympathizers, and, yes, also innocent bystanders if the attack in questions deals a considerable blow to the Empire.

It can also be justified to kill your own sources if you know/have a good reason to believe they will be captured and are unable to resist interrogation and could reveal really crucial information. But that should be a last resort, and crucial Rebel spies shouldn't be so much hired mercenaries or unstable individuals but dedicated Rebel operatives, people willing to die for the cause if need be. Writing it so that such rebel agents aren't ready to do this is just not a very good plot. Because it means that those rebel handlers rely on unstable and untrustworthy people to do crucial work to begin with.

Ditto with Luthen hiring Cassian for the job. If you think you cannot work with independent contractors ... just don't. If you do, then be professional. If you can't afford that, then at least murder the guy clandestinely (i.e. at the end of the mission) so that outsiders cannot really learn that the Rebellion are thugs who murder folks who work for them if they think they have to.

Allowing Cassian to leave means he could have told others about Luthen and his involvement in the Aldhani heist and that, in turn, could have allowed those people to conclude the Rebels murdered him to silence him. That would inevitably be very poor PR. Especially if done on Ferrix during the funeral of Cassian's own mother. I mean, what do we think would have happened with the crowd if they had seen Cassian being gunned down by a Rebel assassin?

50 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Jeez, I bet you'd easily be able to write an absolutely brilliant TV show.

Can't wait to see it. 

LOL, next time I'll have to be able to fly myself to be able to judge whether a bird with a broken wing has trouble doing it.

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30 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Feel like something right out of a Cold War spy novel...oh wait...

Definitly has some John le Carré vibes, for sure.

BTW, Epic Games Store has Star Wars: Squadrons as their free game, for those who enjoy space sims or have fond memories of playing X-Wing and TIE Fighter back in the dark ages.

 

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11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Couldn’t they set it up so that it appeared that other circumstances caused Kreegyr's gang to abandon the mission? There are lots of reasons why such a mission might be abandoned at the last minute, none of which would point the ISB to a mole in their own ranks

Maybe.  But, again, there is a genuine risk that the ISB would crack down because it would make them suspicious.  And the risk… is too high. Should the Allies have acted on every piece of Enigma intelligence and thereby convinced the Germans to change codes?

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45 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

I think there is plenty of substance in what we've seen Rebels do in this show.

You mean the Rebels of the show or the show Rebels?  Because, as much as people say there is a pleasing lack of fan service in Andor, but I disagree with that. It's strong in its roots of Star Wars. It's just not, "in your face"...

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I agree with a lot of the points about Luthen in this thread, but he's also think he's not the best rebel leader possible. He's just the best for this era because the rebellion has barely kicked off. He's definitely not the best for the New Hope era and we know he's not around there by then. But the rebellion is quite a different beast by then and even has the capacity to mount fleet space battles against the Empire. It's likely Luthen won't even be the best leader possible by season 2.

The interactions between Saw Gererra and Luthen were very telling. It isn't clear how he will take the betrayal of Kreeyr, but he not only accepts it, but approves. Actually I think Saw relishes it as it fits into his viewpoint on  how to mount rebellion. Making the hard decisions and being the absolute best rebel warrior and hard man possible.

The later rebel leaders do make some hard and dark decisions at times, but mainly in extreme situations such as to stop a Death Star. There's just no way though the likes of the honorable warrior Admiral Ackbar would have worked for/with Luthen though. Even if that had came about Luthen would have a large and dark reputation by then. 

I'm pretty certain Luthen is going to die next season. My guess is there will be a mirror scene with Luthen under the gun of Andor this time, but he will fire.

Last thing, this show is very sparing of light-sabre duels and Jedi, but it must be remembered that this is Star Wars and The Force is very much out there. Making immoral decisions is very much not a free thing with only moral costs. It can literally turn people to the dark side, especially if they are important leaders. (And they don't have to be a force user for this to happen) There's actually mechanics for this in the Star Wars tabletop RPGs. Some of the video games, too like Knights of the Old Republic.

 

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