Star Wars - Andor Spoilers (And Scot's Old Ass TV)

[mormont]

5 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I agree.  The easy dichotomy of “Rebels good” v “Empire bad” will absolutely continue to be done by Disney. 

I mean, it is a dichotomy. The Rebels are good and the Empire is bad. Let's not get carried away.

Andor intends to complicate matters a bit morally but that's always been part of the SW mix.

31 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

You mean the Rebels of the show or the show Rebels?  Because, as much as people say there is a pleasing lack of fan service in Andor, but I disagree with that. It's strong in its roots of Star Wars. It's just not, "in your face"...

Yeah, there is a fair bit of fan service in Andor, depending how one defines it (and it does seem to have a malleable definition).

Say what you like, this is a show that makes no bones about the fact that it takes place in the same universe as the films, as The Mandalorian, even.

[felice]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, no. I'm not talking rewriting, I'm just talking about reordering the arcs. Say, we have Cassian killing the guards, him fleeing his home planet, and being arrested as a tourist before he is hired by Luthen after the prison break. It could have been the same story on the outside.

Except the whole situation with the prison was a consequence of the Aldhani job. Taking that away makes the story worse. And the first arc ends with him just running away rather than being recruited for a job; that's worse. And how and why does Luthen find him after the prison break? Does he still run off after the job, and if so, what changes his mind?

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Now, the murder plot could have worked better if Vel had been instructed to take Cassian out from the start. Making this an afterthought is weird, too. The guy could have already talked whenever they caught up with him, no?

Luthen was hoping to recruit him to the Rebellion. It was a disappointment that he took his money and ran once the job was done. If Luthen hadn't had such hopes for him, he wouldn't have dealt with him personally, and he wouldn't have become such a security risk.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And if their sole ISB mole is so badly placed that whatever information they get from him will inevitably traced back to him - no idea how this even makes sense considering we, the audience, know how many of Lonnie's colleagues knew about this whole thing - then he isn't worth much. They would only be able to use the information he gives them once.

Depends on the information. Visibly reacting to what the ISB knows gives away that they have a leak, but things they don't know can be changed, eg he stopped Saw from joining Kreegyr and losing two cells instead of just one.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Hence, Luthen should rather sacrifice Mon Mothma than himself - because she cannot and doesn't do what he does, and one imagines that there are other rich people the Rebellion can milk for money.

Certainly he'd sacrifice Mon Mothma first if he had to, but it would still be a devastating blow! Replacing that money wouldn't be easy, if even possible.

[Kalbear]

Like, I can see that the arcs don't matter if you don't pay attention to anything that happened or you don't really care about natural continuity or things like that. That's probably what Mandalorian and Obi-Wan and Clone Wars does for you. But in Andor you have to go from Ferrix to Aldhani because he has no money. That's kind of a big deal there; he can't just go to some random holiday planet and live a decent time because he's entirely broke. He's entirely desperate for a big score and Aldhani gives him that. 

Could you make it so he doesn't need that big score and is just running away from Ferrix? Sure! But that's an entirely different show. Andor not having the background of being desperate and poor and wanting money is part of his character, but again you could change that. But that's a very different story. He has to feel like he's actually gotten what he wants AND thinks that he can just live with the Empire and be fine - that's his view of Maarva before he leaves her too. If you do that before Aldhani why would he bother just running away from Luthen at that point, or Val? Why wouldn't he want actual revenge? 

So yeah, they're interchangeable from possibly a vague plot-related standpoint in the same way that you can reorganize all sorts of other stories, but it's not remotely interchangeable from character arcs. 

Same goes for the ISB leak. Sure, they could have written it so they could save Kreegr and fanwanked it by making the Empire really incompetent, but then you're back to wanting Obi-Wan levels of stupid Imperials. And again, that's fine - but that's not a negative for this show. 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Maybe.  But, again, there is a genuine risk that the ISB would crack down because it would make them suspicious.  And the risk… is too high. Should the Allies have acted on every piece of Enigma intelligence and thereby convinced the Germans to change codes?

Again, that's a war setting. In the show they are not there yet, and my point is that destroying rebel cells to protect corrupt Imperial officials isn't exactly the best was to get to a point where you can try to challenge the Empire.

And while it seems clear that this thing was drawn from the event your reference, it is on a completely different level. Having a mid-tier secret police guy in your pocket is not even remotely the same as having the ability to decrypt the entire secret communication of the enemy.

1 hour ago, Martell Spy said:

I agree with a lot of the points about Luthen in this thread, but he's also think he's not the best rebel leader possible. He's just the best for this era because the rebellion has barely kicked off. He's definitely not the best for the New Hope era and we know he's not around there by then. But the rebellion is quite a different beast by then and even has the capacity to mount fleet space battles against the Empire. It's likely Luthen won't even be the best leader possible by season 2.

The character is not bad. What's kind of bad is that apparently this guy is in charge of most, if not all, meaningful 'rebel operations' throughout the Empire ... whilst Mon Mothma is nothing but a rich woman he milks for money. She makes no decision.

It would have been easy to put this into perspective - have Luthen be one of the Rebellion's special operations guys. A man arranging operations they need to test things and to acquire information, material, and money they can't get on the open market.

But as the show plays out it becomes clear that this guy pretty much IS the Rebellion. He runs it, not Mon Mothma and most definitely not Bail Organa.

[Corvinus85]

2 hours ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

You mean the Rebels of the show or the show Rebels?  Because, as much as people say there is a pleasing lack of fan service in Andor, but I disagree with that. It's strong in its roots of Star Wars. It's just not, "in your face"...

I was talking about Luthen et al.

And yes absolutely

[JGP]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But as the show plays out it becomes clear that this guy pretty much IS the Rebellion. He runs it, not Mon Mothma and most definitely not Bail Organa.

Having a hard time identifying how that's a problem. Rebellions seem just as if not more likely to emerge than arise by strict design. 

---

 

This tweet though, whew:

 

 

[Ran]

6 minutes ago, JGP said:

Having a hard time identifying how that's a problem. Rebellions seem just as if not more likely to emerge than arise by strict design. 

Yep, it's not a problem. He's the unsung figure who pulled together the disparate bands and found ways to fund and coordinate it, but it's Mon Mothma who'll emerge as the remembered leader, the one who came out of it with a history suggesting a moral uprightness and never having had to make dubious, unethical, or even evil choices in the name of the cause (and even that, as the show reveals, is not entirely true, re: Davo). 

In an interview, Gilroy pointed to the Aldhani heist being loosely inspired by the Tiflis bank robbery which appears to have been masterminded, at least in part, by Joseph Stalin with the intention of helping to fund the activities of the anti-tsarist Bolsheviks.  Which sort of tells you a bit about how Luthen is seen by Gilroy, as the man making the hard choices that others won't make for the cause.

Speaking of Gilroy interviews, here's another which I think was pretty good.

[Lord Varys]

41 minutes ago, felice said:

Except the whole situation with the prison was a consequence of the Aldhani job. Taking that away makes the story worse. And the first arc ends with him just running away rather than being recruited for a job; that's worse. And how and why does Luthen find him after the prison break? Does he still run off after the job, and if so, what changes his mind?

Yes, but that's all superficial. It is good writing to show how Aldhani affects the judicial system of the Empire ... and bad writing to indicate that the prison break had no effect at all. Keep in mind that we apparently talk about a facility here which provided crucial tech for Emperor Palpatine's pet project. He would care much more about than folks stealing some of his money.

You would just have minor changes to rearrange the arcs. Luthen basically stumbles on Cassian because he has some tech he wants. In reverse order he could have stumbled on him for another reason, possibly because Cassian needed a job in the wake of the prison break and/or whatever lift he got off the prison planet was a contact of Luthen's.

41 minutes ago, felice said:

Luthen was hoping to recruit him to the Rebellion. It was a disappointment that he took his money and ran once the job was done. If Luthen hadn't had such hopes for him, he wouldn't have dealt with him personally, and he wouldn't have become such a security risk.

The idea that he was a 'big security risk' is not convincing. Luthen can walk around on Coruscant, he clearly isn't on any list of potential rebel (sympathizers) the Imperial authorities have. The idea that a mere description of the guy Cassian could give folks would result in them identifying Luthen in a galaxy this large where there should be trillions or quadrillions of humans is, quite frankly, ridiculous.

41 minutes ago, felice said:

Depends on the information. Visibly reacting to what the ISB knows gives away that they have a leak, but things they don't know can be changed, eg he stopped Saw from joining Kreegyr and losing two cells instead of just one.

Oh, come on. The ISB staged a ruse they hoped would convince Kreegyr that everything was alright. Now, all Luthen needed to do was to tell Kreegyr to look for signs that the death of his man was no accident. It was a staged accident, so there would be ways to prove that. And if whatever agents/watchers the ISB has in place see how Kreegyr's guys react to the staged accident thing the chances that they conclude 'There must be a mole!' are pretty low. The Rebels could even leak information indicating that they got suspicious in the wake of the accident thing.

41 minutes ago, felice said:

Certainly he'd sacrifice Mon Mothma first if he had to, but it would still be a devastating blow! Replacing that money wouldn't be easy, if even possible.

Well, we don't know. We know the Rebellion is definitely larger than these two since there are other cells and also whatever Bail Organa has built and controls through his people.

13 minutes ago, JGP said:

Having a hard time identifying how that's a problem. Rebellions seem just as if not more likely to emerge than arise by strict design.

It is obvious why this is an issue. That kind of hierarchal Stalinist terrorist organization structure would have never inspired anyone. Mon Mothma herself would be a hypocritical monster if the methods of the likes of Luthen could be traced back to her. And they would be, the Empire would see to it. Realistically, Luthen-style operations should cause the overwhelming majority of the people living in the Empire (who must be fine with Palpatine's rule or else he would have been ousted a long time ago) that the Emperor is right and justified in using any means necessary to crush the insurgents.

2 minutes ago, Ran said:

In an interview, Gilroy pointed to the Aldhani heist being loosely inspired by the Tiflis bank robbery which appears to have been masterminded, at least in part, by Joseph Stalin with the intention of helping to fund the activities of the anti-tsarist Bolsheviks.  Which sort of tells you a bit about how Luthen is seen by Gilroy, as the man making the hard choices that others won't make for the cause.

LOL, read that only after comparing Luthen's methods to Stalinist tactics. This is all you need to know that this kind of thing is unworthy of being at the core of what the Rebellion is.

20 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

I was talking about Luthen et al.

And yes absolutely

The lack of substance is that we get speeches and speeches people justifying their methods ... but pretty much nobody with a political mind who should know why they are doing what they are doing are telling the audience why they are doing what they are doing (i.e. Mon Mothma, Vel, Luthen, even Maarva). All we get from Vel/Cinta, for instance, is that 'the cause' is more important than their private thing. Great. And why are doing what you are doing? Do tell us! Vel is an interesting character in the sense that she comes from a privileged background who ends up leading dirty rebel operations. Why is she doing that?

That Cassian and others gravitating towards the rebel sphere have no clear political mind yet, no idea what they want aside from see the Empire gone, is good. That's why the show works so well in the early episodes establishing Cassian's background and motivation - and also, of course, a character like Syril, who works really great as this ambitious security officer standing up for Imperial values.

As I said, the manifesto quotes and Maarva's speech are just full of hollow phrases. There is no political substance there, only quasi-religious imagery (think of Maarva talking about 'the shadow' that's the Empire, etc.). I mean, we can compare this stuff to, say, the quotes from the Goldstein book in '1984'. That book doesn't even offer a viable alternative to Ingsoz and similar regimes (which the Rebellion does) ... but at least the bible of this fake rebel movement has the decency to actually analyze the true nature of Ingsoz and why this political system sucks.

Andor shows that the Empire is evil - but we have known that since 1977. If they do a show for adult people, for people who are supposed to take this seriously as a complex world, then, please, actually go with proper political analysis. Don't only show us people who brutalized by 'the evil guys in charge', don't just use fascist imagery and symbolism. Actually tell us what these people want and believe in ... and then tell us what the good guys believe in turn. It is fine that some or many of the Rebels only want the Empire gone because they were directly harmed by the Empire. But that's not why the leadership of the Rebellion opposes Palpatine's regime. Bail and Mon and Leia are not against the Empire because the Emperor harmed them, their family, or their friends.

You see the mirror image of this lack of political substance with the ISB gang. Why the hell is Dedra Meero as passionate a fascist as she appears to be? What are her political beliefs, exactly? What about Partagaz's take on things? And, especially, Syril's? We speculated here on this thread earlier if Syril might end up in team Andor ... that is only possible because the show didn't really explore the inner life/convictions of this character in a clear manner. On the outside we see that both his private life and his professional life suck, so there is sufficient external motivation for him to break with the Empire. But that doesn't seem to be happening. Why?

I mean, we cannot even be sure he actually has a thing for Dedra. I'd not be surprised if he isn't just stuck with her because she kind of embodies what he craves the most - effective leadership, authority, power. Somebody who tells him what to do, who believes in whatever the Empire stands for.

[JGP]

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is obvious why this is an issue. That kind of hierarchal Stalinist terrorist organization structure would have never inspired anyone. Mon Mothma herself would be a hypocritical monster if the methods of the likes of Luthen could be traced back to her. And they would be, the Empire would see to it. Realistically, Luthen-style operations should cause the overwhelming majority of the people living in the Empire (who must be fine with Palpatine's rule or else he would have been ousted a long time ago) that the Emperor is right and justified in using any means necessary to crush the insurgents.

That's not obvious at all, man lol

Real world rebels have done horrible things, and in most cases they arguably did so to get people to rise up against fascism. Alongside the cruelty, illustrating the weakness in an autocracy is also required to inspire a broader uprising.

You're reaching.   

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, JGP said:

That's not obvious at all, man lol

Real world rebels have done horrible things, and in most cases they were arguably trying to get people to rise up against fascism. Illustrating the weakness in an autocracy is required for broader buy in. 

You're reaching.   

Well, Luke Skywalker and Han Solo don't view the Rebels as Stalinist thugs, are they? And Princess Leia also doesn't appear like a Stalinist girl, does she?

I'm not against the Rebels doing questionable things ... but the only way this movement is going to gain traction is if more and more people reach the conclusion or come to believe that the Rebels are the good guys who want to do the right thing. Sure, they also need to look as if they could succeed, etc.

Andor only shows that the Rebels are treasonous thugs. They are cynical, duplicious, corrupt ... basically evil, too. Luthen is at his worst when he celebrates how the Empire taking off the gloves is a good thing for them.

You can have that kind of thing on some level ... but if you present the Rebels only as such people then they are barely better than the Empire. If they are at all.

I mean, you can ask the question whether Syril and Dedra are worse off than Vel and Cinta?

[JGP]

Honestly, Varys. We already got the Rebellion as 'good' guys! I enjoy the egg breaking we're getting now. Adds a complexity that [onscreen] SW has always been lacking.  

[Kalbear]

51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, Luke Skywalker and Han Solo don't view the Rebels as Stalinist thugs, are they? And Princess Leia also doesn't appear like a Stalinist girl, does she?

There are no bras in communist Russia

51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm not against the Rebels doing questionable things ... but the only way this movement is going to gain traction is if more and more people reach the conclusion or come to believe that the Rebels are the good guys who want to do the right thing. Sure, they also need to look as if they could succeed, etc.

Andor only shows that the Rebels are treasonous thugs. They are cynical, duplicious, corrupt ... basically evil, too. Luthen is at his worst when he celebrates how the Empire taking off the gloves is a good thing for them.

I'm really, really having a very difficult time seeing how you see this at all. Like, what actual show did you end up watching?

The very last episode has Maarva give a rousing speech which causes an actual revolt to happen on Ferrix. Like, this is in the show! And prior to this we see exactly how people like Maarva are starting to want to fight back because of the Empire's pushing. Prior to that we see the idealist Cinta and the inspired Vel doing things to fight - both for very different reasons. We see Nemik write an actual manifesto which we get a few minutes of in the actual show. We see the imperial who turned away from the Empire for love, we see Mon Mothma doing it out of righteousness, we see Luthen do it out of hate, we see Saw doing it for weird-ass political views, we see the ISB agent doing it out of love for his family. And we see Andor doing it because he both wants revenge and wants to protect his family and home. We see all sorts of rebels for all sorts of reasons; Luthen is definitely one part of it, but it's not remotely the only part and it certainly isn't the most effective. 

It's very odd; you appear to both have problems with the show and also not have actually watched the show. 

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The lack of substance is that we get speeches and speeches people justifying their methods ... but pretty much nobody with a political mind who should know why they are doing what they are doing are telling the audience why they are doing what they are doing (i.e. Mon Mothma, Vel, Luthen, even Maarva). All we get from Vel/Cinta, for instance, is that 'the cause' is more important than their private thing. Great. And why are doing what you are doing? Do tell us! Vel is an interesting character in the sense that she comes from a privileged background who ends up leading dirty rebel operations. Why is she doing that?

Andor shows that the Empire is evil - but we have known that since 1977. If they do a show for adult people, for people who are supposed to take this seriously as a complex world, then, please, actually go with proper political analysis. Don't only show us people who brutalized by 'the evil guys in charge', don't just use fascist imagery and symbolism. Actually tell us what these people want and believe in ... and then tell us what the good guys believe in turn. It is fine that some or many of the Rebels only want the Empire gone because they were directly harmed by the Empire. But that's not why the leadership of the Rebellion opposes Palpatine's regime. Bail and Mon and Leia are not against the Empire because the Emperor harmed them, their family, or their friends.

Well, just like we've known about the Empire's evil since 1977, we've also known what the good guys are about, why they fight against the Empire. While we don't know the little details for every character, the gist is there. Mon Mothma was part of the group of senators that included Padme, senators who strongly believed in democracy and protecting the people's rights. And we see Mon trying to still do her job in this vein in the show.

Vel says that each person has their own rebellion when we learn the bits about Lieutenant Gorn, as well as Cinta. Luthen says the Empire is choking society slowly to the point that people no longer notice, i.e. they become complacent. Nemik says something similar later.

Btw, I also disagree with your earlier post where you said that the manifesto is wrong about tyranny requiring a lot of effort. It does require a lot of effort. Propagandas don't write themselves, draconian laws don't enforce themselves, censorship doesn't just happen. Do you think authoritarian governments in the RL are idle? We even get a great example of this in the finale - the Imperials had made restrictions about the funeral procession (2 hrs past midday, 40 people max); but then the people of Ferrix pull a fast one and start the ceremony early, and the crowd is huge. We then see the Imperials scrambling, because they were not ready, they didn't do the necessary work to ensure their oppresive maneuver wasn't going to be challenged.

[Relic]

2 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

 

Btw, I also disagree with your earlier post where you said that the manifesto is wrong about tyranny requiring a lot of effort.

Tyranny on EARTH requires enormous effort. The force it takes to keep masses subdued is vast. Tyranny over an entire GALAXY? Well, even the military might of the Empire wasn't enough. Genocide wasn't sufficient. Dozens of Star Destroyers didnt suffice.  At some point galactic tyranny requires a mobile moon base which is home to a planet destroying laser. But yeah...no effort at all...

[Relic]

Which brings me to one of my fundamental issues with The Force Awakens, and further sequels. The New Order has basically super imposed onto the SW universe in the opening crawl, and never really explained. WTF happened in those 30 years to allow for the rise of yet another fascistic super power? And how the fuck did they build a secret laser weapon that like...shoots massive energy beams across solar systems without anyone finding out? What a stupid decision by JJ and the rest of the nitwits responsible for that bit of inspired story telling. 

[JGP]

Word. 

Rey was a good role model, my daughters loved the hell out of her, but she'd been much better the swashbuckler character. Having Finn as the Jedi has a lot to say for itself too. 

Andor, for me, was griping in a way that no Star Wars content has been since the trilOG. Just this slow burn, all the different eyes, breathing characters. Cassian's friends after all of this, and everyone as the guerrilla arm of the Rebels starts to take off. 

Can't say I'm particularly taken with the idea of watching those two fascists gets their freak on next season though lol 

[RumHam]

33 minutes ago, Relic said:

Which brings me to one of my fundamental issues with The Force Awakens, and further sequels. The New Order has basically super imposed onto the SW universe in the opening crawl, and never really explained. WTF happened in those 30 years to allow for the rise of yet another fascistic super power? And how the fuck did they build a secret laser weapon that like...shoots massive energy beams across solar systems without anyone finding out? What a stupid decision by JJ and the rest of the nitwits responsible for that bit of inspired story telling. 

And then it's later revealed that Palpatine was behind it and had a hidden fleet of star destroyers so like....why?

It's really baffling that they didn't plan the sequel trilogy out before shooting anything.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

51 minutes ago, RumHam said:

And then it's later revealed that Palpatine was behind it and had a hidden fleet of star destroyers so like....why?

It's really baffling that they didn't plan the sequel trilogy out before shooting anything.

When has JJ Abrams ever planned anything in advance?  

[Slurktan]

1 hour ago, Relic said:

Which brings me to one of my fundamental issues with The Force Awakens, and further sequels. The New Order has basically super imposed onto the SW universe in the opening crawl, and never really explained. WTF happened in those 30 years to allow for the rise of yet another fascistic super power? And how the fuck did they build a secret laser weapon that like...shoots massive energy beams across solar systems without anyone finding out? What a stupid decision by JJ and the rest of the nitwits responsible for that bit of inspired story telling. 

Much as I loathe the sequels they have made it through ancillary stuff that starkiller base was made by the empire from the planet ilum. So yes while they made the death stars they also made starkiller base at the same time. Because that makes sense.

[RumHam]

35 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

When has JJ Abrams ever planned anything in advance?  

Right but there were other people involved who should have known better. Especially after the success of the MCU.