Star Wars - Andor Spoilers (And Scot's Old Ass TV)

[IFR]

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Just give it a proper try. It starts as a children's show ... but there are episodes in that show you would not necessarily want to watch with young(er) children. It eventually gets really serious and deep.

 I don't have the patience to suffer the crucible of hours of bad television (and from what I saw "bad" is stating it in pretty generous terms) for the hope that there's good stuff later on. There are plenty of shows and books that are good throughout (Andor, for example), and I'd rather experience that.

I mean, I seem to watch a lot of shows and I post on this board more than I ever thought I would, but I do have a surpisingly busy life. There's only so much spare time I have, and I'd rather be enjoying it rather than volunteering myself to misery in the hopes that it will pay off and something serviceable will emerge from the experience.

[IFR]

@Lord Varys

Reading my post, it comes off as harsh, which is not at all the tone I was going for. I do get carried away with being snarky about shows I find unimpressive, but I'd like to express again that this is my own preference, and I in no way am trying to suggest it ought to be the canonical take on things.

I think that others enjoying something like The Clone Wars is in no way an inferior way of spending their leisurely time, or that their time is less valuable. I speak strictly in reference to my reasoning on whether to watch or not watch a show.

I do appreciate the recommendation though.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, IFR said:

@Lord Varys

Reading my post, it comes off as harsh, which is not at all the tone I was going for. I do get carries away with being snarky about shows I find unimpressive, but I'd like to express again that this is my own preference, and I in no way am trying to suggest it ought to be the canonical take on things.

I would say others enjoying something like The Clone Wars is in no way an inferior way of spending their leisurely time, or that their time is less valuable. I speak strictly in reference to my reasoning of whether to watch or not watch a show.

I do appreciate the recommendation though.

No harm done ;-).

You could easily enough just give the good episodes a try. The show is pretty episodic, so there is actually little to no need to watch it all. I understand that the animation style and, especially, the simpler earlier stories are not everybody's taste. But as a guy who knows pretty much all the Star Wars content out there (sans the novels of new canon) I really think that the better TCW material ranks highest in quality of all Star Wars content there is.

People would have to judge for themselves whether their issue with the animations style, etc. allows them to enjoy it, but especially the final episodes, the ones Wert mentioned above as having seen only recently, are simply great cinema. Not watching this definitely means you are missing out on Star Wars content of great substance.

That doesn't mean you have to like it ... I'm just recommending it repeatedly because there is really a great difference between the earlier and the later episodes.

[DaveSumm]

There’s a ton of essential episode lists for Clone Wars out there, I used one but I can’t remember which now. I also spliced the last few episodes with RotS which was fun.

[Corvinus85]

2 hours ago, IFR said:

Good episode. The care this show takes in crafting small details and character moments is excellent.

Luthen and Mon Mothma are fantastic characters.

I have a tendency to nitpick, and I very much appreciate that the writers clearly gave a lot of thought to the writing. Critically analyzing this show is rewarded, not punished, because there is depth.

It's a pleasure. But it's a shame that this show isn't more representative of the Star Wars universe.

I can see how people really involve themselves with a vast franchise. This show has given me a hunger to experience more of the universe. I saw Rogue One and thought it was pretty decent. I also tried watching The Clone Wars and that turned out to be quite a silly show, clearly made for an audience of young children - I made it through two episodes and even though they were short, it was an excruciating journey. The Mandalorian was much better, but still far from a great show and I dropped it after a couple of episodes.

I think I just have to come to terms with the fact that Andor is an aberration. This can be more fairly stated as a Gilroy universe rather than a Lucas universe.

Someone else said it upthread, but if we keep getting a show like this once in a while, all the chaff in between will be worth paying for.

[Lord Varys]

Thinking of Andor a little bit, I think it only is great stuff as a Star Wars worldbuilding series. It shows us how life was under the Empire for the common guy, and it also establishes how hard and dangerous it was to get the Rebellion going.

But if you cut to the chase, if you take the story or stories as presented there isn't really much substance to it, no? Financial fraud, an accidental murder, a heist, a prison break. Basically that's what happens. I don't think people would care all that much for that series if it were taking place in a different setting.

It is the fact that this is a Star Wars show, adding more substance to an era in the Star Wars timeline that makes this intriguing.

[Heartofice]

47 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

There’s a ton of essential episode lists for Clone Wars out there, I used one but I can’t remember which now. I also spliced the last few episodes with RotS which was fun.

My question would be is it worth just watching the essential ones and not the whole thing, how much of the overall plot and development do you lose by not being a completionist.

[Heartofice]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Thinking of Andor a little bit, I think it only is great stuff as a Star Wars worldbuilding series. It shows us how life was under the Empire for the common guy, and it also establishes how hard and dangerous it was to get the Rebellion going.

But if you cut to the chase, if you take the story or stories as presented there isn't really much substance to it, no? Financial fraud, an accidental murder, a heist, a prison break. Basically that's what happens. I don't think people would care all that much for that series if it were taking place in a different setting.

It is the fact that this is a Star Wars show, adding more substance to an era in the Star Wars timeline that makes this intriguing.

I think it would be seen as a good, well made spy thriller kind of show. If it had similar action and set pieces and characters then I think it would be well regarded. It definitely gets extra credit for being a good show despite being in the SW universe, because that seems like such an issue that weighs other shows down.

[DaveSumm]

3 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

My question would be is it worth just watching the essential ones and not the whole thing, how much of the overall plot and development do you lose by not being a completionist.

I wish I could find the one I used, but it had a ton of notes about why they were relevant (main plot, Mandalore, etc) but also had tiers so you could blitz through and watch the A tier, or mix in B tier for a fuller experience. There’s a fair few episodes where it isn’t critical, but then there’ll be a cool moment with Anakin showing some darker traits or something. I know what you mean but there’s definitely episodes where nothing relevant to the rest of the series happens and you can skip them.

[Ran]

Just now, Heartofice said:

I think it would be seen as a good, well made spy thriller kind of show.

Agreed. The writing is excellent. The complexity of depicting the building of a resistance, with separate groups each having their views and rivalries, the interface between these rebel/terrorists with the public, etc. is something that would be hailed as excellent television regardless of the setting.

Just now, Heartofice said:

It definitely gets extra credit for being a good show despite being in the SW universe, because that seems like such an issue that weighs other shows down.

Certainly agree with this -- that it's a genuinely good live-action show in the Star Wars universe is definitely wonderful after so much dross, but it's still a good show regardless.

[Kalbear]

The only thing that Andor leans on as far as star wars goes is the notion that the empire can be defeated and is not the most competent thing out there. Most everything else is its own thing, entirely separate from any other knowledge needed. I guess the other is the retrofuture style which shows computers being trash and communication being hot garbage.

It is otherwise a very tight, well shot and well acted show that takes itself and the world seriously. It could have easily been Foundation or some other harder sci fi show without any real trouble. That it is star wars adds to the romanticism a bit, but it isn't necessary except that we do not require quite so much exposition to fill in backstory.

In that it reminds me of house of the dragon, which can assume awareness of GOT and therefore not have to constantly explain about westeros.

[Lord Varys]

Just now, Heartofice said:

I think it would be seen as a good, well made spy thriller kind of show. If it had similar action and set pieces and characters then I think it would be well regarded. It definitely gets extra credit for being a good show despite being in the SW universe, because that seems like such an issue that weighs other shows down.

I think it could work great as a piece set in common day Iran, say, or another repressive system where change is up in the air. But then it would likely be some kind of art show piece, perhaps praised by critics, but not particularly successful.

Don't know how successful it is as a Star Wars show, but I think the appeal it has for the audience does revolve around the fact that it really fleshes out aspects of life under the Empire we haven't seen so far.

This could certainly also work in another SF or Fantasy setting where a totalitarian regime is a thing (say, in the Cardassian or Romulan Empires).

7 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

My question would be is it worth just watching the essential ones and not the whole thing, how much of the overall plot and development do you lose by not being a completionist.

I think you definitely should watch all the Ahsoka, Mandalore, Ventress, and Maul episodes. Most bad episodes are earlier ones, like the Dooku Captured arc which introduces Hondo, or Jar Jar teaming up with 3PO (but then, the latter episode is the first in an arc where Nute Gunray is captured and subsequently rescued by Dooku's agents, so one can also just watch that episode).

6 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

I wish I could find the one I used, but it had a ton of notes about why they were relevant (main plot, Mandalore, etc) but also had tiers so you could blitz through and watch the A tier, or mix in B tier for a fuller experience. There’s a fair few episodes where it isn’t critical, but then there’ll be a cool moment with Anakin showing some darker traits or something. I know what you mean but there’s definitely episodes where nothing relevant to the rest of the series happens and you can skip them.

A rule of thumb can be to stick to basically all episodes from mid-season 3 on when they introduce the new Ahsoka model since then you basically have only arcs building on earlier arcs and continuing established plot threads with the solo arcs being all of pretty good quality. Not sure if the Obi-Wan infiltration arc or the Citadel arc have much bearing on the overall plot, but they are pretty good in and of themselves. The Umbara arc also doesn't do much to for the larger plot ... but it raises a certain issue between Jedi and clones and is thus thematicall relevant.

[Heartofice]

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Don't know how successful it is as a Star Wars show, but I think the appeal it has for the audience does revolve around the fact that it really fleshes out aspects of life under the Empire we haven't seen so far.

I think Ran touched on this earlier but it's much closer to the idea of a Star Wars show I've been hoping for, for the past 25 years, than the ones we've gotten elsewhere. Everything else feels far too fantastical and a bit silly, and sure the OT always had that as well, but in my head it there was potential for a grounded 'real' universe to set stories in. I've always been saddened by the direction that Star Wars went since the prequels.
 

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I think you definitely should watch all the Ahsoka, Mandalore, Ventress, and Maul episodes. Most bad episodes are earlier ones, like the Dooku Captured arc which introduces Hondo, or Jar Jar teaming up with 3PO (but then, the latter episode is the first in an arc where Nute Gunray is captured and subsequently rescued by Dooku's agents, so one can also just watch that episode).

Funnily enough I thought the Dooku captured arc was slightly better than the episodes surrounding it. So far I've just finished season one and I think I could easily have skipped almost all of it as nothing in there seems relevant to the bigger picture (other than I wouldn't have gleamed from watching the first 30 seconds of any episodes)

[IFR]

1 hour ago, Corvinus85 said:

Someone else said it upthread, but if we keep getting a show like this once in a while, all the chaff in between will be worth paying for.

That sounds like a person who is boundless in both wisdom and good taste.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Thinking of Andor a little bit, I think it only is great stuff as a Star Wars worldbuilding series. It shows us how life was under the Empire for the common guy, and it also establishes how hard and dangerous it was to get the Rebellion going.

But if you cut to the chase, if you take the story or stories as presented there isn't really much substance to it, no? Financial fraud, an accidental murder, a heist, a prison break. Basically that's what happens. I don't think people would care all that much for that series if it were taking place in a different setting.

It is the fact that this is a Star Wars show, adding more substance to an era in the Star Wars timeline that makes this intriguing.

I agree with others in that the greatness of the show is independent of its relation to Star Wars. This is something that John Le Carre could have written - a tense, sophisticated spy thriller. Indeed, Luthen really seems like a Le Carre character.

[Myrddin]

2 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

There’s a ton of essential episode lists for Clone Wars out there, I used one but I can’t remember which now. I also spliced the last few episodes with RotS which was fun.

I think there's an Essential Clone Wars playlist right in Disney+. My teenage son went through it recently and really liked it (after stalling out on season one for reasons expressed here).

In general, skip all Jar Jar, Threepio, Artoo, and Padme centric episode/arcs. Well, the Padme wasn't too bad, but not "essential" either. I wish they had had a stronger story for her. 

[Heartofice]

28 minutes ago, Myrddin said:

I think there's an Essential Clone Wars playlist right in Disney+. My teenage son went through it recently and really liked it (after stalling out on season one for reasons expressed here).

Good shout, I just looked, it’s on there. It skips A LOT of episodes though! Even later ones! That seems quite scary to me

[Myrddin]

Just looked at the playlists too. It is weird they didn't add the last three episodes of the series to it (the ones that dovetail into Revenge of the Sith), but included the Bad Batch backdoor pilot.

I also noticed there's a Mandalore Culture playlist, that includes episodes from Clone Wars and Rebels, as well as Mandalorian and Boba Fett. 

[sifth]

3 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Funnily enough I thought the Dooku captured arc was slightly better than the episodes surrounding it. So far I've just finished season one and I think I could easily have skipped almost all of it as nothing in there seems relevant to the bigger picture (other than I wouldn't have gleamed from watching the first 30 seconds of any episodes)

I mean to be fair, you can say that about pretty much the entire show. I mostly enjoyed the Clone Wars, for the Anakin and Ahsoka episodes. It's quite refreshing to see Anakin actually portrayed as a hero, unlike the monster and idiot, the films portray him to be. Ahsoka's character development, from season 2 onward is amazing. I went from hating her to loving her during that time frame.

[karaddin]

I don't actually think the show could work as is as a contemporary drama or set in our future for a reason that is not at all the fault of the show - our surveillance technology already significantly surpasses the Empire. Obviously that's not insurmountable though, you'd just need to change some details, add some additional roles etc.

It doesn't take me out of the story because it's internally consistent with the SW universe, but I do notice and chuckle at some of the things that just don't work here.

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, IFR said:

I agree with others in that the greatness of the show is independent of its relation to Star Wars. This is something that John Le Carre could have written - a tense, sophisticated spy thriller. Indeed, Luthen really seems like a Le Carre character.

Not saying it isn't a good write ... it is just that there is too little substance for it to make sense in a setting where you actually know how the average man lives and how the repression system works.

8 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Funnily enough I thought the Dooku captured arc was slightly better than the episodes surrounding it. So far I've just finished season one and I think I could easily have skipped almost all of it as nothing in there seems relevant to the bigger picture (other than I wouldn't have gleamed from watching the first 30 seconds of any episodes)

Most of the series is relevant because of the portrayal of Ahsoka. The story-telling is very episodic, so you effectively only need to know the precursor arc if you get a sequel arc. The first season just introduces the characters of Ahsoka, Ziro, Hondo, and Cad Bane.