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Star Wars - Andor Spoilers (And Scot's Old Ass TV)


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Have to say that yes in comparison to the rest of the season this finale was nothing special, but it’s still a fuck ton better than basically anything else SW has been offering us for a while so I’ll take it. 
 

Lots of things worked, the marching band and the whole funeral hit me quite hard. I thought it was well done that they managed to get almost all the major characters to one place at the same time, and for it not to feel forced. 
 

But yes, if compared to some of the incredible episodes we’ve been lucky enough to experience this wasn’t quite up to that standard. Having said that, the flow of the season has meant we’ve had multiple finales already, so no complaints.

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2 hours ago, Ran said:

Personally, what I still would love to see is Disney do some foreign language Star Wars shows. What would a Korean director and cast do with it? What would Zhang Yimou and a Chinese cast do with it? What sort of story could Wong Kar-wai make in the Star Wars universe? How about Kunle Afolayan filming something in Nollywood, or Takeshi Kitano or Takashi Miike in Japan? What could a Bollywood Star Wars film be like? Or some up-and-coming Latin American director?  And so on and so forth.

Now I really want to see what a Takashi Miike Star Wars film would look like.

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4 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Thing is it sounds like Deedra’s nemesis at the ISB is only getting… more… interested in Mon Mothma’s finances based upon that discussion not less.

As though he could use the information to gain leverage over Mon Mothma.

I wonder if he’s going to try and blackmail Perrin with it?

I do feel a bit sorry for him, being unwittingly set up by his own wife to cover up the real reason she’s meeting with the dodgy banker guy.

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What a cool episode, though occasionally a bit slower than I wanted it to be. And the consequences felt...low. I know Andor survives, and him getting into the rebellion this way was cool; I was half-expecting him to kill Luthen, and his choice was interesting given what he's gone through now. But the rest of the Ferrix gang all basically surviving and escaping felt meh, Dedra being rescued in the nick of time felt a bit forced, and Ferrix not being just flat out fucking slaughtered or bombed from orbit by overreaching imperials feels like something they needed to do to emphasize the brutality. 

Was also hoping to see something in the Kreegr trap, but alas. 

One thing I kept thinking when watching was how big Ferrix felt. I know they used the Volume some of the time but not for most of the outdoor scenes, and Ferrix felt so much like an actual city with actual styles of architecture and areas and weight. Compared to the ludicrous open-shop scenes in Obi-Wan or the virtually dead towns in Mandalorian it was such a breath of fresh air. 

It's definitely the best Disney Star Wars property and almost single-handedly justifies Disney taking it from Lucas; this is exactly the sort of story Lucas would never ever have done or even cared about. 

I disagree with folks upthread though; I really don't want every creator to jump in with their own style and story in the SW universe. One of the things that made Andor special was that they did absolutely respect the lore and style and feel of the Republic and Empire that had been established in ANH and Rogue One and RotS and even Solo. It was a different kind of story from the main shows, and definitely a much more mature one, but it was still undeniably Star Wars. It didn't create random tech to fit needs, it didn't make Jedi into super Saiyan mode, it didn't make the Empire into drug dealers. It didn't introduce some bizarre lore about Mandalorians and make them into space samurai. It very much respected the general vision and extended it in relatively logical, canonical ways. That is what I want. And that's one of the many reasons Andor succeeds.

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I also have to agree that I don’t want millions of different takes on the SW universe, what I would really like is a consistent vision and universe that feels coherent and real. Ideally I would like everything to be like Andor and Rogue one and just ditch all the stupid stuff, including the prequels and sequels.. I mean could we not just start again with the whole thing?? Please!

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9 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I also have to agree that I don’t want millions of different takes on the SW universe, what I would really like is a consistent vision and universe that feels coherent and real. Ideally I would like everything to be like Andor and Rogue one and just ditch all the stupid stuff, including the prequels and sequels.. I mean could we not just start again with the whole thing?? Please!

I feel like Star Wars already has a consistent universe with the Filoni approach (which I haven't delved too deeply in, because I'm not a fan).

I simply find that this consistent universe (which Marvel offers as well) is too much of a constraint to be fertile breeding grounds for interesting stories. A homogenized narrative seems to emerge with each installment. Andor is pretty exceptional I think. 

I think movies like The Dark Knight trilogy, Joker, and Logan managed to be good because there really weren't any of these restrictions placed on the narrative out of concern that it would buck against the tone and events of a larger universe.

I'm not saying there isn't a place for that type of narrative. That already pretty much exists in Star Wars. And there probably will be a more adult tone in some of the shows in the future.

But I'm not interested in massive interconnected universes (the quality of which is hard to consistently maintain) so much as really good stories. And I think there's plenty of potential in the Star Wars universe for some great non-canonical stories independent of the rest of the Star Wars metanarrative.

 

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7 hours ago, Werthead said:

Great season overall, but the finale was somewhat disappointing. Not terrible, but a bit rote compared to the rest of the season? I felt this episode was very predictable and most of the twists I saw coming, apart from Mon Mothma scapegoating her husband for her gambling problems. That was quite amusing.

Yes, it just didn't lead anywhere. Mon Mothma being concerned about what's essentially just tax fraud was pretty bad. It was well and good that it started in this way, but at the finale we should have reached a different point.

Also, while the 'evil deathcry torture of an extinct species' reads good on paper ... it leaves us with the nagging question where the hell this effective torture method is in the OT where both Leia and Han are tortured by Darth Vader himself. Could he just afford some standard torture droid model?

With the rebel gang, I expected that Cassian would not just see Luthen again, but also Vel and Cinta.

On a smaller scale I don't like random dudes successfully headbutting stormtroopers. Their armor sucks as it is, but now it cannot even withstand the impact of normal heads.

The show unfortunately falls flat in the political department.

Maarva's speech and the quotes from the manifesto we get feel like generic, apolitical shit, using cheesy, quasi-religious metaphors instead of actually characterizing the political system of the Empire and why it sucks. We have seen a lot of oppression now, but gotten no justification of it nor elaboration on it. Why is the Empire brutalizing so many people? Is this universal? And if so, how the hell can they hope to stay in power?

The worst parts there is the stuff from the manifesto which make fantasy claims that oppression/tyranny are hard - they are not. You can put a mentality of fear and suspicion into people that you need less and less clubs or surveillance stuff.

What we needed there were concrete talk about (1) why the political system of the Galactic Empire sucks and what the theoretical justifications for it are and why they suck, and (2), more importantly, a core set of values and ideas shared by (some of) the rebels about what's the problem with the Empire, what values they want restored, etc. Instead we get bland and vapid romanticisms.

The most interesting aspect in the Rebellion is that they want their democratic republic back. They loathe the dictatorship/tyranny in the Empire. It is, presumably, not all that much about colonial exploitation (the Republic and the Empire were likely not *that* different in this regard) or the persecution of minorities (funnily enough, in this show humans are the species suffering under the Imperial jackboots the most, pretty much eroding the idea that the Empire is particularly hard on non-humans). What actual political content is there has the vibes of anti-colonialism - the Imperials are always an evil outside force, a collective 'them' which comes in and takes something over that was originally independent. Mind you, I like the original plot about the Empire coming in and managing the corporate planet themselves ... but it turns the Rebellion on its head to turn them mainly into people who turn against the Empire because they were treated badly by them, were conquered by them (for reasons we never learn), etc. These people were against a despotism and tyranny on principle and from the beginning (as we see for Mon Mothma and Bail Organa in the cut scenes from ROTS), not because the Imperials weren't nice to them. A nice Palpatine would still have to go if you don't like despotism.

Mind you, there can be people who are politicized and drawn in the rebel camp because they suffer at the hands of the Empire - like Cassian does. But that should not be the only motivation/rebel biography we get. And so far that is the most prevalent - we also get that thing in the Rebels show and in the Obi-Wan show (Indira Varma is a disillusioned Imperial).

Luthen could easily enough have been a zealous believer in the philosophical ideas and ideals that build the original Galactic Republic - and those values must be very strong in this galaxy considering these people actually were able to build this marvelous institution. In fact, it could be great if he were actually a very idealistic guy who was suffering from the fact that he had to use the methods of the enemy to get a resistance movement going. Instead we still have no clue why he fights the Empire.

Ditto with Mon Mothma - we know that she finances the Rebellion and that she is 'good' ... but we don't know why exactly she does what she does.

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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Mon Mothma being concerned about what's essentially just tax fraud

Err... She's funneling money to the nascent Rebellion, through Luthen/Axis, whose identity she knows, which ties her and her money to an entire web of rebels. That is what she is concerned about the Empire discovering, not "tax fraud". 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Ran said:

Err... She's funneling money to the nascent Rebellion, through Luthen/Axis, whose identity she knows, which ties her and her money to an entire web of rebels. That is what she is concerned about the Empire discovering, not "tax fraud".

Yes, but her arc certainly could have been more about her being the leader of the Rebellion (and not Luthen) and less about her being Madam Financier who has a skeleton in her closet.

The show began and basically finished Mon's arc with her having financial problems. There was no development in her character or her story, merely a depiction. We now know she has a husband and a daughter and a cousin who is an actual rebel ... and that's it. We know nothing about her family, actually. Are her husband and daughter the people we think they are ... or not? Is there any depth to them, or are they just as vapid and ignorant of Mon's actual doings and character as they appear? We don't know.

The show could have had her understand certain things better or in a different role, could have challenged her own view of herself and her role as Madam Financier, she could have learned more about the Empire and its methods, the ISB could have tied her to some things, and she, in turn, could have been aware of that, causing her to do something.

Instead, it is all just the same, aside from the fact that her daughter might now marry some thug's son.

This flaw is also evident in Cassian's arc. Neither Aldhani nor the prison break stuff ever come up in the finale. Maarva could have connected the dots about that - I expected her last message to Cassian to also tell him that she realized what he did. The prison break could also have been something that was at least news to the ISB and Luthen's gang - or Cassian could have mentioned that he was involved there when he talked to Luthen in the end.

Now we have to ask ourselves - what was the point of all those plots if they didn't affect anything on the outside? The prison break plot was completely unnecessary for Cassian to join the rebels - Aldhani and his foster mother's convinctions were already enough for that. One imagined when watching those earlier episodes that the point of that was that he would not just join the Rebellion as some guy, but a guy who could organize and lead covert operations. But as things played out nobody will ever know Cassian was involved in the prison break unless he himself talks about it - and even then people would be free to believe or disbelieve his story.

Instead we would have expected that Cassian either meet one or multiple people with actual rebel connections in prison.

The idea that the guys would still want to kill him at the end of the season also feels bad. Not only does this blacken the Rebellion in general, but it also shows no development on their end. If they had connected some dots they could have realized that the guy might actually be somebody they would want to work with. It is also quite selfish that Luthen sets his own life and position within the larger Rebellion as sacrosanct, being willing to murder people who might be forced to give the Imperials a lead. If he is that crucial for the operation, this should change. And Luthen should set measures in place ensuring (1) that he will never be captured alive (say, via a small detonator in his head), and (2) that whatever data he has on his ship, etc. can be quickly destroyed. After all, the sole reason they want to murder Cassian is because he could identify Luthen.

The show fails, so far, to connect its plots. And there is also no real sense of closure for anyone - what is with Vel and Cinta? And what a silly ending for Syril and Dedra? Are they together now, professionally or romantically? How is the Ferrix mess affecting Dedra's standing with her superiors? The season is lacking multiple wrapup scenes for core characters, possibly an entire episode worth of material.

We are expecting not only a time jump between season 1 and 2, we also already know that there will be time jumps between the arcs in the next season, so the chance that any of this stuff is properly addressed or elaborated on in the next season is not all that good.

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7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Now we have to ask ourselves - what was the point of all those plots if they didn't affect anything on the outside? The prison break plot was completely unnecessary for Cassian to join the rebels - Aldhani and his foster mother's convinctions were already enough for that. One imagined when watching those earlier episodes that the point of that was that he would not just join the Rebellion as some guy, but a guy who could organize and lead covert operations. But as things played out nobody will ever know Cassian was involved in the prison break unless he himself talks about it - and even then people would be free to believe or disbelieve his story.

I don't see how this follows at all. 

We know Aldhani wasn't sufficient for Cassian because he emphatically told the rebellion to fuck off, and then told Maarva that she was basically high for wanting to fight the Empire - and then proceeded to go piss off to a beach. Neither were enough for his convictions at that point. Now, could they have been? In some other show that doesn't exist? I guess. Or for that matter he could have been a rebel from the start in some other other show! Anything's possible when you're not basing things in our current reality. 

But in this reality Andor needed to be jailed unjustly, to see the boot of the Empire, to lead an escape that might cost him his life, and then to see what happened to his adoptive mom. He needed to rescue his friends from the Empire and save Bix. He needed to have that personal trauma as well as have that personal success - he needed to know that they could win, that he could win, and that it was worth fighting for. That's why his message to Luthen is so important at the end; he's solved most of his immediate problems, saved his family, and now all that's left for him is to either fight for the rebellion or die so that he won't be a problem for them and his friends. That is definitely not the Andor we met at the start of the season. 

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that the guys would still want to kill him at the end of the season also feels bad. Not only does this blacken the Rebellion in general, but it also shows no development on their end. If they had connected some dots they could have realized that the guy might actually be somebody they would want to work with. It is also quite selfish that Luthen sets his own life and position within the larger Rebellion as sacrosanct, being willing to murder people who might be forced to give the Imperials a lead. If he is that crucial for the operation, this should change. And Luthen should set measures in place ensuring (1) that he will never be captured alive (say, via a small detonator in his head), and (2) that whatever data he has on his ship, etc. can be quickly destroyed. After all, the sole reason they want to murder Cassian is because he could identify Luthen.

I don't see how this follows either; because we haven't seen Luthen's contingencies beyond the Fondor they don't exist? That doesn't make any sense to me. 

I think it's very clear that Luthen doesn't see his position as above everything else because of the risks he's willing to take. He's willing to sacrifice Kreegr and Andor because both of them would bring bigger pieces of the system down with them if they weren't sacrificed. And in Andor's case, Andor has entirely outlived his usefulness - he isn't wanting to work for the rebellion, he knows a lot about things (including not just Luthen but Cinta and Val), and he can't be trusted (at least at that time). Why wouldn't you kill him? This is exactly the logic that we see being used at the start of Rogue One by Andor himself. This feels like a bizarre quibble. 

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The show fails, so far, to connect its plots. And there is also no real sense of closure for anyone - what is with Vel and Cinta? And what a silly ending for Syril and Dedra? Are they together now, professionally or romantically? How is the Ferrix mess affecting Dedra's standing with her superiors? The season is lacking multiple wrapup scenes for core characters, possibly an entire episode worth of material. 

I do agree that a lot of the plotlines did not end particularly well. I said so above, particularly Dedra and Syril's (though chances are good now Syril will be in on the plot and be more approved of). But Andor's plot was significantly good and had a very deep change from start to finish, as did the entire Ferrix plotline. Mon's plotline largely felt isolated and only really came to life when it intersected with Luthen's, but I'm willing to be charitable here. 

 

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8 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

This show didn't have the desire to shoehorn in big cameos. Saw Guerera was as far as they went and that served a good purpose. If they did have that desire, I would have expected a live-action cameo from one of the Rebels characters since their cell was operating by now, possibly sans Ezra. And Ahsoka will have some of these characters in it.

Honestly, I didn't need anything more from a Smits cameo than him being at one of Mon Motha's parties she seemed to have a lot of...maybe drop a brief line to make her wonder where his loyalties are...but other than that just a pure cameo to help the depth of what and who was Parr of the Senate...

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49 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Now we have to ask ourselves - what was the point of all those plots if they didn't affect anything on the outside? The prison break plot was completely unnecessary for Cassian to join the rebels - Aldhani and his foster mother's convinctions were already enough for that. One imagined when watching those earlier episodes that the point of that was that he would not just join the Rebellion as some guy, but a guy who could organize and lead covert operations. But as things played out nobody will ever know Cassian was involved in the prison break unless he himself talks about it - and even then people would be free to believe or disbelieve his story.

The imprisonment and break out are what truely hardened Cassian to the Rebel cause.  He saw the casual and ridiculous brutality of the Empire.  He saw good men brutalized and turned into cogs in a machine.  He saw that the Empire couldn’t be avoided with his random arrest.  

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1 hour ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

I don't see how this follows at all. 

We know Aldhani wasn't sufficient for Cassian because he emphatically told the rebellion to fuck off, and then told Maarva that she was basically high for wanting to fight the Empire - and then proceeded to go piss off to a beach. Neither were enough for his convictions at that point. Now, could they have been? In some other show that doesn't exist? I guess. Or for that matter he could have been a rebel from the start in some other other show! Anything's possible when you're not basing things in our current reality. 

I could have been more succinct there. What I meant is that the prison break's sole purpose ended up being effecting/shaping Cassian on the inside. It changed him, to be sure. But as a plotline it could have been more if there had been actual rebels or rebel sympathizers in the prison and/or on the outside, helping the guys to escape.

Cassian now just stumbles into the rebel orbit again because his mother dies and he returns back home.

How random the episodes are can easily be drawn from the fact that the story could have been effectively the same if Cassian had first escaped the prison only to then be recruited for the heist.

1 hour ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

I don't see how this follows either; because we haven't seen Luthen's contingencies beyond the Fondor they don't exist? That doesn't make any sense to me. 

Certainly they could have such things in place ... but my point when making such a point is that they are not explicitly saying this. Instead their plan to ensure that Luthen can continue doing his stuff is murdering Cassian.

1 hour ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

I think it's very clear that Luthen doesn't see his position as above everything else because of the risks he's willing to take. He's willing to sacrifice Kreegr and Andor because both of them would bring bigger pieces of the system down with them if they weren't sacrificed.

That is actually also a pretty ugly take on things. For the sake of some mid-tier ISB mole an active Rebel cell is to be sacrificed. They are not yet fighting an open war - there you really need agents on the other side and stuff. But right now it seems more dangerous for the cause to see the Empire destroy active Rebel cells than possibly identifying a mole. Even more so since one imagines that there should have been ways to protect the mole.

Not to mention, you know, that sensitive information you cannot use because it would give away the source is, in the end, not really useful information. All Luthen could do with that was, apparently, nothing.

1 hour ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

And in Andor's case, Andor has entirely outlived his usefulness - he isn't wanting to work for the rebellion, he knows a lot about things (including not just Luthen but Cinta and Val), and he can't be trusted (at least at that time). Why wouldn't you kill him? This is exactly the logic that we see being used at the start of Rogue One by Andor himself. This feels like a bizarre quibble. 

I don't like Rogue One, in part for the reason you give here. Murdering your own operatives/sources/allies isn't something the good guys should or would do in Star Wars. With Death Star business you can, perhaps, excuse this kind of thing, but the better way to set an information pipeline up there is to really hide your true identity there. If Darth Sidious can do it in this world, then lots of other people should, too.

Cassian was hired as mercenary for this job. If the Rebellion's take on independent contractors truly is (or would be) to use them and then not just discard them but murder them ... why the hell did Han Solo survive five minutes on Yavin 4? Why was sleazy Lando allowed to join the Rebellion? How could a movement using such methods possibly gain allies?

It looks even more ridiculous in light of the fact that one of the actual 'rebels' in the heist time was a filthy traitor, whilst Cassian did his job as promised. Not only does this reflect badly on Luthen and his people, it is also highly ironic.

In context it is quite obviously also quite silly to trust some Imperial officer on Aldhani for 'reasons' and to include Mon Mothma's OWN COUSIN into his potentially highly dangerous operation. If she had been caught - meaning both captured alive or killed and identified post mortem -, everything would have come tumbling down.

A much better plotline would have been if the guys on Ferrix had realized that the Andor thing was more than it appeared to be if they had made the connection to the prison break.

Or better still - just drop the silly 'assassination plot' and have them track down Cassian because they want him to work for them on a regular basis.

An assassination plot as such could have made sense if Cassian had somehow acquired some really sensitive information - say, overhearing a conversation between Luthen and Mon Mothma, learning Vel's true identity, etc. Him just knowing Luthen's face shouldn't be enough. It feels petty and overly paranoid.

1 hour ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

I do agree that a lot of the plotlines did not end particularly well. I said so above, particularly Dedra and Syril's (though chances are good now Syril will be in on the plot and be more approved of). But Andor's plot was significantly good and had a very deep change from start to finish, as did the entire Ferrix plotline. Mon's plotline largely felt isolated and only really came to life when it intersected with Luthen's, but I'm willing to be charitable here.

Cassian's personal journey works pretty well. Vel and Cinta's bickering led nowhere, so far. Mon Mothma's story should have intersected with all the other plotlines, possibly to the point of her meeting Cassian in the end. If not, then they could at least have her plot connect with the ISB story - either by some agents directly interacting with her, or by her using her own Imperial connections to mess with Dedra's superiors.

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4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

How random the episodes are can easily be drawn from the fact that the story could have been effectively the same if Cassian had first escaped the prison only to then be recruited for the heist.

Again, if you want to rewrite the entire story, sure! But it doesn't make sense in the context of the actual story. Him being recruited after the prison when he had no reason to be on that pleasure planet at that point or anything like that makes no sense. Bix isn't involved there either. Maarva doesn't see the crackdown on Ferrix at that point either. None of this makes sense; this feels like you are just ignoring huge parts of the actual plot because it doesn't fit your viewpoint. 

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Certainly they could have such things in place ... but my point when making such a point is that they are not explicitly saying this. Instead their plan to ensure that Luthen can continue doing his stuff is murdering Cassian.

They didn't explicitly state that Luthen had a fucking rad ship until they showed it. This is like objecting that he doesn't have a speeder bike. You don't show these things and set them up like some clumsy Chekov's contingency plan. 

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is actually also a pretty ugly take on things. For the sake of some mid-tier ISB mole an active Rebel cell is to be sacrificed. They are not yet fighting an open war - there you really need agents on the other side and stuff. But right now it seems more dangerous for the cause to see the Empire destroy active Rebel cells than possibly identifying a mole. Even more so since one imagines that there should have been ways to protect the mole.

I disagree, really strongly. But again that's your take. That's emphatically not what the story is. 

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not to mention, you know, that sensitive information you cannot use because it would give away the source is, in the end, not really useful information. All Luthen could do with that was, apparently, nothing. 

One thing he does do is make sure no prisoners were taken. Another thing he does is find out what Andor is up to. 

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't like Rogue One, in part for the reason you give here. Murdering your own operatives/sources/allies isn't something the good guys should or would do in Star Wars. With Death Star business you can, perhaps, excuse this kind of thing, but the better way to set an information pipeline up there is to really hide your true identity there. If Darth Sidious can do it in this world, then lots of other people should, too.

Okay, here's the real crux of the problem: you simply do not like this style of story in Star Wars. And that's fine! But all of your quibbles are basically justiifcation for this emotional value that you place. They aren't based on the story or the facts or anything like that; they're basically saying that you don't like this. I can do this for the rest of your post too, but it all boils down to you not liking this kind of storyline and then complaining about the excellent way they executed a story that you don't actually like. 

 

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is actually also a pretty ugly take on things. For the sake of some mid-tier ISB mole an active Rebel cell is to be sacrificed. They are not yet fighting an open war - there you really need agents on the other side and stuff. But right now it seems more dangerous for the cause to see the Empire destroy active Rebel cells than possibly identifying a mole. Even more so since one imagines that there should have been ways to protect the mole.

Lonnie is absolutely a high-tier mole - he gets into meetings run by the head of the entire Bureau. Mid-tier would be more like the guy Cinta shanks. I can absolutely see the logic that Lonnie is more important to Luthen than Kriege is.

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32 minutes ago, Denvek said:

Lonnie is absolutely a high-tier mole - he gets into meetings run by the head of the entire Bureau. Mid-tier would be more like the guy Cinta shanks. I can absolutely see the logic that Lonnie is more important to Luthen than Kriege is.

Indeed, and the whole point from Luthen's perspective is that by giving him tips on things that are not too harmful, he will rise yet higher in the ranks, and become privy to more and more valuable information. He's already high-value, worth more than any cell of Rebels, and that value can go higher still if they work things right.

I'd guess the only persons more valuable right now than Lonnie is Mon Mothma and Luthen himself. If push cames to shove, Luthen would sacrifice him to protect her or himself.

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