Star Wars - Andor Spoilers (And Scot's Old Ass TV)

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I just watched the episode again.  The band playing for the funeral and Maarva’s speech amp me up every time.  

[karaddin]

6 hours ago, Ran said:

Yep, it's not a problem. He's the unsung figure who pulled together the disparate bands and found ways to fund and coordinate it, but it's Mon Mothma who'll emerge as the remembered leader, the one who came out of it with a history suggesting a moral uprightness and never having had to make dubious, unethical, or even evil choices in the name of the cause (and even that, as the show reveals, is not entirely true, re: Davo). 

Yeah, Luthen is imo clearly a character with a definite end point to his arc during this show. In the three "major" characters we're seeing the original leader of what becomes the main faction of the rebellion interact with the two people who he recruits that will eventually take over from him - Mon as the leader, Cassian as the guy that does what it takes. The rebellion can't continue with him at it's head because those two functions can't really be done by the same person, the leader needs to be more righteous than they can be with that level of bloody hands.

And as I said a few weeks ago, the prison had to come when Aldhani because the empire has to be what recruits Cassian to the rebellion. No amount of smart talking was going to get him around, he had to be genuinely convinced by the empire and that's showing in the microcosm what happens at the macro scale, it's explicitly part of the theme of this season. Luthen knows they will never be able to recruit people at the scale needed to overthrow the empire, the only entity capable of doing that is the empire itself.

On Lonnie - I don't think the risk is that he would be immediately identified as the mole, but that it would raise a lot of suspicion that there is a mole which would ultimately get him caught. And yeah, that does limit their ability to use info from him - he's functionally a sleeper agent they can use to mitigate damage (saving Saw) and be their ace in the hole for one critical moment. That's worth more to Luthen than a small cell that he didn't think had a lot of promise.

As for why Dedra and Syril are so into fascism - I think the lack of explanation for that is part of the point. Some people do that without any grand reason for it, it's the status quo they know and they go all in on being all that they can be within that model. It's fucked, but they exist. I think media tends to dismiss the banality of so much of this sort of thing.

[Jaxom 1974]

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I just watched the episode again.  The band playing for the funeral and Maarva’s speech amp me up every time.  

The janky, off kilter aspect to some of it (and maybe it wasn't really off note, I'm tone deaf, what do I know) I thought amped up the tension of what was to come. I said it earlier, I found the build up to the riot superior to the prison break. I don't know if it's a better episode overall but that level if tension was just greater. With virtually every character onsite, knowing what was going to go down for any of them...that was intense. (Sure we knew Andor survives, but not knowing what cost he was going to pay, if any, to escape...that worked...)

Then having Luthen listen, really seem to listen, to Marva's speech...contrasting it with his own.from earlier in the season...just great. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

16 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

The janky, off kilter aspect to some of it (and maybe it wasn't really off note, I'm tone deaf, what do I know) I thought amped up the tension of what was to come. I said it earlier, I found the build up to the riot superior to the prison break. I don't know if it's a better episode overall but that level if tension was just greater. With virtually every character onsite, knowing what was going to go down for any of them...that was intense. (Sure we knew Andor survives, but not knowing what cost he was going to pay, if any, to escape...that worked...)

Then having Luthen listen, really seem to listen, to Marva's speech...contrasting it with his own.from earlier in the season...just great. 

It is an act of mourning and defiance by real people who knew what it could cost them…

 

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Well, just like we've known about the Empire's evil since 1977, we've also known what the good guys are about, why they fight against the Empire. While we don't know the little details for every character, the gist is there. Mon Mothma was part of the group of senators that included Padme, senators who strongly believed in democracy and protecting the people's rights. And we see Mon trying to still do her job in this vein in the show.

That is cut stuff from ROTS. And there we also just learn that they are pro-Republic/anti-Palpatine ... not why that's the case.

I mean, Mon is the female lead in this show, basically. The other big character. And while we learn a lot about Cassian's background, all we learn about Mon Mothma is that she is a great liar and that Chandrilan culture is somewhat weird.

We know why Cassian ends up with the Rebellion, but Mon Mothma is just there, and the writers don't care about fleshing out her character.

6 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Vel says that each person has their own rebellion when we learn the bits about Lieutenant Gorn, as well as Cinta. Luthen says the Empire is choking society slowly to the point that people no longer notice, i.e. they become complacent. Nemik says something similar later.

Yes, that's the whole anti-colonialist thing I mentioned. That is there, but it is not the proper way to address resistance against autocratic rule within the colonial system.

The Rebels are not people who are colonized and subjugated by the Empire acting as an outside conqueror, they are part of the political body which is now the Empire and once was the Republic ... and they want the latter back. That's the core of things.

The whole part were Luthen mentions various splinter groups is great in this regard, but most of those groups would be Imperials/Republicans themselves (in the sense that they operate within the borders/confines of the Republic/Empire. That would, for instance, also include the former Separatists Luthen mentioned - they all were from star systems which seceded from the Galactic Republic.

6 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Btw, I also disagree with your earlier post where you said that the manifesto is wrong about tyranny requiring a lot of effort. It does require a lot of effort. Propagandas don't write themselves, draconian laws don't enforce themselves, censorship doesn't just happen. Do you think authoritarian governments in the RL are idle? We even get a great example of this in the finale - the Imperials had made restrictions about the funeral procession (2 hrs past midday, 40 people max); but then the people of Ferrix pull a fast one and start the ceremony early, and the crowd is huge. We then see the Imperials scrambling, because they were not ready, they didn't do the necessary work to ensure their oppresive maneuver wasn't going to be challenged.

I meant that those systems don't have to be repressive all the time to continue to exist - for instance, the very idea of monarchic rule is written into the cultural DNA of most human cultures in existence so far. If it is so easy to get rid of monarchy, then why do the British still bother with Charles III? Not to mention all the monarchies in the Middle East.

The idea in the manifesto is that the Empire's authoritarian regime will inevitably crumble because it is hard to maintain. The opposite should be true in this case. All you need to keep a population in line is the widespread fear of surveillance and control, not so much the constant smack on the head. That was the whole point of the Death Star. Palpatine didn't want to destroy thousands of planets, merely send the message that he could.

What I think the show needed there was an actual brief analysis of politics in this world. A theoretical take on why the Empire was wrong as a political system. I mean, seriously, we don't even understand why those people don't fall for the good old 'evil advisers routine' quite common in autocratic systems. The King/Emperor/Führer is great, only his advisers/representatives are bad/evil. Just because some Stormtroopers kill your old granny doesn't mean Emperor Palpatine is evil, wanted this to happen, or personally commanded it.

In that sense, the entire Rebellion shouldn't work as a movement if the majority there weren't what you could describe as zealous believers in the democratic system of the Old Republic.

Whatever colonialist exploitation the Empire started after the Clone Wars could certainly also be an important factor there ... but you could just stop that and still keep the Emperor and monarchy (like the Brits still do). You could just change the colonialist/exploitation policy and/or the repressive police state laws if those were your main issues.

4 hours ago, Relic said:

Which brings me to one of my fundamental issues with The Force Awakens, and further sequels. The New Order has basically super imposed onto the SW universe in the opening crawl, and never really explained. WTF happened in those 30 years to allow for the rise of yet another fascistic super power? And how the fuck did they build a secret laser weapon that like...shoots massive energy beams across solar systems without anyone finding out? What a stupid decision by JJ and the rest of the nitwits responsible for that bit of inspired story telling. 

Just forget the ST. It sucks simply for the fact that the entire Rebellion and its heroes were apparently natural born losers and incompetent politicians and Jedi teachers in light of what happened later. In fact, the ST scenario sucks so hard that you are tempted to wish these morons choke on their fascist love. Why the hell are there First Order sympathizers in this galaxy? After everything the Empire did or tried to do?

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, karaddin said:

On Lonnie - I don't think the risk is that he would be immediately identified as the mole, but that it would raise a lot of suspicion that there is a mole which would ultimately get him caught. And yeah, that does limit their ability to use info from him - he's functionally a sleeper agent they can use to mitigate damage (saving Saw) and be their ace in the hole for one critical moment. That's worth more to Luthen than a small cell that he didn't think had a lot of promise.

I don't think this holds much water - again, lots of people knew about the Kreegyr operation, and the ISB itself isn't just this tiny conference room. This is a galaxy-spanning secret police. They would have tens or hundreds of thousands of agents. (In part the problem there is that the show, while portraying the size of the galaxy pretty well sometimes, doesn't really deliver there.)

And again - if they have a very important mole they should also have a patsy in place should the ISB realize that there is a mole. If Lonnie is effective, he should notice when his colleagues start searching for him.

2 hours ago, karaddin said:

As for why Dedra and Syril are so into fascism - I think the lack of explanation for that is part of the point. Some people do that without any grand reason for it, it's the status quo they know and they go all in on being all that they can be within that model. It's fucked, but they exist. I think media tends to dismiss the banality of so much of this sort of thing.

I don't think so. I mean, the whole point of Syril and Dedra is to humanize the Empire, to show us mid-tier Imperial bureaucrats and officers and, with Syril, an average Joe who wants to join the SS so very badly.

What would be the harm to have, say, Syril and his mother have a political talk in addition to her dressing him down? Or have Dedra and Partagaz hint at the motivation for their own fascist leanings? This could only add substance to the plot.

In context, I'd like to point you all to the German show 'Babylon Berlin' I finally watched last week. It takes place during the Weimar Republic (so far 1929-1931). It is basically a hard-boiled detective show with 1920s aesthetics and stuff, but all with the rise of fascism as a background plot. I do have some issues with that show, but it does give a lot of insight why democracy failed in Germany at that time while also depicting the motivations of the people who didn't fight for democracy.

(The really good stuff are all the hints to German movies of the era, especially the Expressionist silent movie stuff. And the big bad is basically Dr. Mabuse in all his glory. I think the show is available in English, too. I think on HBO and Sky. The really good part are one 'a guy hangs out of an airplane' scene and a drowning scene. Both scenes are so very well presented that they really got to me ... on the 'you get sucked in completely and feel for the character' level.)

Of course, this is the real world, and real world history, but Star Wars has its history, too. The Clone Wars pretty much are the galaxy's Great War, if you will, so it would make sense if they would be a reference point for people living in the era covered by Andor.

[mormont]

It's not said but surely it's very strongly implied that Syril is so pro-Empire because of his mother-issues. He makes a successful career in a male-dominated field that establishes his independence from her smothering and criticism: the respect of Mosk and his men clearly is one of the biggest emotional highs Syril's ever had, filling a void created by his absent father, perhaps. He isn't just a supporter of the Empire, he's specifically a supporter of the military. He wants to be a part of that.

[Relic]

6 hours ago, Slurktan said:

Much as I loathe the sequels they have made it through ancillary stuff that starkiller base was made by the empire from the planet ilum. So yes while they made the death stars they also made starkiller base at the same time. Because that makes sense.

So they were making a Death Star while at the same time making something 1000x more powerful than the Death Star? ooookay.

[Relic]

8 hours ago, JGP said:

Can't say I'm particularly taken with the idea of watching those two fascists gets their freak on next season though lol 

Haha, yeah that final scene between the two was stomach churning. 

"I suppose I should thank you."

"I know." 

[Werthead]

9 hours ago, RumHam said:

Right but there were other people involved who should have known better. Especially after the success of the MCU.

To be fair, the MCU was far more done on the fly then people appreciated. The idea they had some grand masterplan set in stone years and years ago by Kevin Feige is very much an illusion, and they very much just flew by the seat of their pants from film to film to film. Like Captain Marvel nearly showed up at the end of Age of Ultron with no explanation and they nearly went with that idea, and having to retcon the Infinity Gauntlet's location and so on.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 hours ago, Relic said:

Haha, yeah that final scene between the two was stomach churning. 

"I suppose I should thank you."

"I know." 

No.  Dedra said, “I suppose I should say ‘Thank you’”.

Syril said “You don’t have to”.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

The “Dudebros” and “anti-woke” douches are out attacking folks fulsomely praising this wonderful show… ^I’m really shocked^…

[Relic]

52 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

No.  Dedra said, “I suppose I should say ‘Thank you’”.

Syril said “You don’t have to”.

yes Scot, i know. My take on it is an ESB reference/joke. 

[Rhom]

11 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

The “Dudebros” and “anti-woke” douches are out attacking folks fulsomely praising this wonderful show… ^I’m really shocked^…

What are they upset about?  The heroes are all pretty much white males… 

[Relic]

1 minute ago, Rhom said:

What are they upset about? 

Who cares?

[Rhom]

Just now, Relic said:

Who cares?

I’m just genuinely curious what about this show can be criticized.  I mean, I know LV has spent pages and pages doing it here… but I’ll be honest, I stopped reading them in full several pages back.  So unless you’re the kind of Star Wars fan who likes slow mo speeder chases in the streets of Tatooine and back flipping Jedis in every scene; I don’t understand what there is to nitpick here.

[Heartofice]

18 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

The “Dudebros” and “anti-woke” douches are out attacking folks fulsomely praising this wonderful show… ^I’m really shocked^…

Are they though? 

[Relic]

2 minutes ago, Rhom said:

I’m just genuinely curious what about this show can be criticized.  I mean, I know LV has spent pages and pages doing it here… but I’ll be honest, I stopped reading them in full several pages back.  So unless you’re the kind of Star Wars fan who likes slow mo speeder chases in the streets of Tatooine and back flipping Jedis in every scene; I don’t understand what there is to nitpick here.

I hear you, im just tired of giving these people attention, or consideration. There's always someone to slander, something to hate, some perceived slight to rage about. Fuck them. 

[Spockydog]

12 minutes ago, Rhom said:

What are they upset about? 

Fascists being portrayed as the bad guys?

 

[Ran]

The Saltierthancrait subreddit, very much filled with those sorts on a quick glance, absolutely adores Andor. The Television subreddit does have a complaint about Andor, which is that there are too many threads all about how great Andor is.

On Twitter, I'm seeing more people dunking on alleged "anti-woke" people angry about Andor than actual evidence of "anti-woke" people angry about Andor. This is another very online, algorithim-driven thing, I suspect, and not, surprise, a reflection of substantial ranges of opinion about the show.