Star Wars - Andor Spoilers (And Scot's Old Ass TV)

[JGP]

I have to admit that when the episode ended I kind of panicked and had to search how many there were in S1. For some reason I thought there were only going to be 10. 

I figured Kreegyr was going to be revealed as another identity of Luthen, so nice expectation gap [for me] there.

I love this show.

[mormont]

6 hours ago, Ran said:

So, do we think Kino simply didn't allow himself to think about the fact that the only way out was swimming, or did he have that in his head the entire time?

Obviously, he knew, for two reasons:

1. His hesitation at the microphone. He isn't nervous, he's thinking of what comes next.

ETA - to correct myself, he's not nervous about making the announcement. He's shitting himself about what comes next.

2. Theme. Kino is trapped in a system that will kill them all and he sacrifices everything so others have a chance to escape. 'One way out' could be Luthen's speech summarised in three words.

Edited November 9, 2022 by mormont

[Ran]

Makes plenty of sense. He just seemed to convey the idea in his last scene that actually realizing he had to swim was just dawning on him, but maybe it was more the realization that he had hit the end of his personal road.

Still think folks would have tried to help those who couldn't swim, but then again, every man for himself, I suppose...

[mormont]

It's not necessarily that nobody would try to help Kino, but rather that it's such a long shot. He has to leap into the water from a height, it's chaotic and confusing, and the platforms are presumably some distance from land, far enough that most folks are going to struggle to get themselves to safety. And I don't think he'd put the burden on anyone else. He doesn't seem the type.

[Ran]

Perhaps! I am just hopeful that at least the attempt was made, even if it failed. Like, why was he even bothering to run to the escape if he knew he couldn't? I don't think it was resolved in his mind even then. 

 

[Heartofice]

36 minutes ago, mormont said:

ETA - to correct myself, he's not nervous about making the announcement. He's shitting himself about what comes next.

I agree he’s thinking about what is coming next,  but I don’t think it’s anything to do with his lack of ability to swim.

Hes  deeply institutionalised, he’s built up respect and self esteem in prison and has come a long way by keeping other people alive, by following the rules. I think he’s really worried that’s he’s condemning people to death, that he’s doing the right thing, even if he’s already halfway through. Maybe he’s doubting himself, maybe he doesn’t know what he would be on the outside.

Serkis was great and there is a lot of depth to his performance, so you can read any number of things into his actions, that’s what I took from it

[RumHam]

Another great episode. I hope they don't jump ahead. I'm curious what kinda planet they're on. Lucky it wasn't Kamino. 

This has probably already been pointed out, but I watched Rogue One the other night and when they're locked up by Saw Cassian says it's a first for him. And the blind guy talks about how there are different kinds of prisons, and Cassian carries his with him. I just thought it was a little odd. 

[Relic]

I've made my mind a sunless place.

This show...

[Jaxom 1974]

That was a pretty amazing episode. Not really a wasted moment at all.

And I didn't have any issues with Luthien's speech...it was an interesting contrast, to my mind, to Kino's...

[karaddin]

6 hours ago, mormont said:

Obviously, he knew, for two reasons:

1. His hesitation at the microphone. He isn't nervous, he's thinking of what comes next.

ETA - to correct myself, he's not nervous about making the announcement. He's shitting himself about what comes next.

2. Theme. Kino is trapped in a system that will kill them all and he sacrifices everything so others have a chance to escape. 'One way out' could be Luthen's speech summarised in three words.

5 hours ago, Ran said:

Perhaps! I am just hopeful that at least the attempt was made, even if it failed. Like, why was he even bothering to run to the escape if he knew he couldn't? I don't think it was resolved in his mind even then. 

 

I'd also like to think they would try, I'm pretty confident Cassian would have if he'd heard, but the biggest issue would be people even realizing it was something that was needed. That said part of his speech was to lift someone back up if you see them fall, and then we pointedly get a shot of a couple getting trampled after they fell so perhaps everyone is running on too much adrenaline for it to work. On the flip side, they did not slaughter all the guards, just ran for freedom, so they definitely hadn't fallen into savagery - just the rush for freedom. 

As for why he'd help lead it knowing he won't make it out? He'd rather die trying to break free than die doing what they want. One way out. He seemed to take his job as room leader seriously to the point of duty of care to the men under him, and them betraying the "contract" of "do your time, pay off your debt with your labour and you'll be released" really outraged him. He's more like a true believer union rep than management. 

I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see anymore so people can choose the head canon they want for his fate.

On a different note - After episode 6 we were wondering how they'd get Cassian from the guy that walked away after the heist to the dedicated rebel we see in Rogue One. This was far more real and convincing than I expected. Which is yet another demonstration of how good the writing on this show has been, this character arc already works really well just zoomed on on Cassian but its even better when you step back and look at it in the context of the wider themes.

Luthen could never have recruited Cassian as a rebel, but he pays him to help in a heist intended to make the empire tighten their fist. In response the Empire pass PORD, they start snatching up people on the flimsiest of excuses and sending them to prisons that they've converted into permanent slave camps and getting caught up in that will be the thing that actually causes Cassian to sign up. Luthen could never recruit Cassian to the rebellion himself, but he baits the Empire into doing it for him. *chefs kiss*

[Lord Varys]

Must say the break-out was somewhat too cheesy for me. They did pretty good work there, evoking a sense of labor/concentration camp ... and then you can, apparently, just swim away from the place?

One would imagine that if the Empire built such a play it would ensure it is at a location you cannot possibly swim away from.

[karaddin]

They're complacent - they were confident in the security measures of the electric floors to the point they weren't even eavesdropping on prisoners. This wasn't a maximum security prison, it's a labour camp were petty criminals if criminals at all who are serving excessive but moderate sentences - no one is going to try stage a mass prison riot against the threat of electrocution just to be able to jump from a great height into an ocean and risk their lives swimming to freedom when they're serving 6months-several years in clean, relatively healthy conditions performing hard but manageable manual labour.

The current prison set up was not done with PORD in mind, and its changed the security equation - they just got to do their escape before the prison caught up with the new reality.

[mormont]

Honestly, it's a great episode and all but the premises on which it's built are still a little... shaky.

I can't make the 'no release' thing work in my head. There's no scenario in which prisoners who believe they're going to be released but wind up in another prison, don't immediately tell their fellow inmates and cause a riot. So what was going on there? Were they supposed to go to another special prison where only the folks who're supposed to be released are incarcerated? That's the only way that could work, right? But that just raises further questions.

Also, the floors can be shorted out by water? But even without sabotage, toilets must get blocked sometimes! And the prison is in the sea! That seems like a huge design flaw?

Also there seem to be significantly more blasters than guards and they're not very well secured.

I'll follow my own advice about suspension of disbelief, but just wanted to point out that the episode isn't flawless.

[Ran]

8 hours ago, RumHam said:

This has probably already been pointed out, but I watched Rogue One the other night and when they're locked up by Saw Cassian says it's a first for him. And the blind guy talks about how there are different kinds of prisons, and Cassian carries his with him. I just thought it was a little odd. 

Interesting. Simplest answer? It's a retcon. That said, I suppose Cassian could mean it's the first time he's been put in a prison by people ostensibly on his side (even if Saw and his team are unwilling to work with the Rebel Alliance, they're still Rebels). I liked Chirrut's remark about having the prison wherever he goes because, in that context, he recognizes that he was indeliably marked by some sort of experience in his past... like being incarcerated and turned into a cog in a machine.

1 hour ago, mormont said:

Were they supposed to go to another special prison where only the folks who're supposed to be released are incarcerated? That's the only way that could work, right? But that just raises further questions.

This was the conclusion I think we came to, and I think it's what Kino seems to conclude as well: they'll be sent to some other prison where everyone is finding out that their sentence is for life, and the security measures are thus greater and stricter.

1 hour ago, mormont said:

Also, the floors can be shorted out by water? But even without sabotage, toilets must get blocked sometimes!

There are no clogged toilets in outer space!

But really, the thing was no one was able to get a team together to try and bust out of there prior to the PORD and then the realization that everyone's sentence was for life. Also, you are just shorting out the floor in a particular place, I gather, rather than everywhere, hence needing to have them shut it off. 

1 hour ago, mormont said:

And the prison is in the sea! That seems like a huge design flaw?

Being in the water didn't seem to be a cause for anything shorting, though. LIke, if there's a breach in the walls, they probably have bigger problems...

1 hour ago, mormont said:

Also there seem to be significantly more blasters than guards and they're not very well secured.

There seem to have been dozens of guards, and  we see many are not armed with more than the zap-stick. The blasters were for situations where those people were called up to arm themselves. 

The lack of security seems in line with the belief that they had created a virtually-perfect prison. So perfect, they didn't even have microphones to snoop on conversations and ferret out potential plots, as noted last episode.

The Empire likes its shiny toys so much that it blinds itself to the flaws. This is very much in keeping with what we see of the Empire in basically all other media, past and present.

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Ran

[Heartofice]

My answer to all this is that the Empire is deeply arrogant and complacent about it's own power and ability to control people. That came up time and time again in the prison story and actually it's a brilliant microcosm of how the empire operates, which is why this show is so compelling. 

So worrying about whether inmates would talk when moved to another prison and spark a riot, or whether a water leak would prevent the floors from working is all a bit beside the point.

The prisons seem to be set up on the basis that nobody can ever escape, and why would they even attempt it, it's impossible, and we are the Empire, we can handle it. Cassian keeps talking about how the guards don't bother to listen to conversations, they have far fewer guards than they should have and just generally there seems to be big level of complacency in the prisons. 

I don't think any of the things mentioned by Mormont are plot holes, I think they are almost the point. 

[Relic]

My main question about the prison is how the hell they kept it so clean. Aside from the guards we don't see any other staff and yet the place is spotless 

But once you start asking questions like that you realize how ridiculous they are. There is so little to nitpick with this show that its just like poking holes for the sake of poking holes. 

[Week]

5 hours ago, mormont said:

I can't make the 'no release' thing work in my head. There's no scenario in which prisoners who believe they're going to be released but wind up in another prison, don't immediately tell their fellow inmates and cause a riot. So what was going on there? Were they supposed to go to another special prison where only the folks who're supposed to be released are incarcerated? That's the only way that could work, right? But that just raises further questions.

I'm having trouble understanding logistics here too. Probably best to leave it at that rather than a bad hand-wavy explanation.

Regardless, just an absolutely excellent show. Definitely best show of the year and among the best media of the year.

[Myrddin]

Like Ran, I assumed they move them to a more secure location, whether within the same prison or off site. Thus the "released" guy showing back up in another floor being such a fuck up.

 

[hauberk]

25 minutes ago, Myrddin said:

Like Ran, I assumed they move them to a more secure location, whether within the same prison or off site. Thus the "released" guy showing back up in another floor being such a fuck up.

 

Yep.  My head canon says that on "release" they would either send them somewhere deeper in the complex where all of the prisoners already knew that there was no release and where there was no opportunity for visible communication.  They issue was that someone got misfiled and delivered to a standard floor instead where this was real news (and were the sign language communication system was able to spread the word).  

[Kalnak the Magnificent]

How do they clean things? Robots. 

Why is the prison designed this way? Because it's cheaper. This is prison labor after all, and that means it's being done because it costs less. Also, with PORD chances are good it's well overfilled and understaffed. 

Why do people go to another prison? Because they just got told about PORD and are trying to comply with it. That wasn't how it was designed before and people didn't think about the repercussions of this policy. They did it out of fear. Shockingly not everyone gets policies of governance right, especially in dictatorships.