The Servants Of Darkness

[Sandy Clegg]

On 10/31/2022 at 5:14 PM, Evolett said:

There's really no evidence for the Citadel as an institution serving the Others or for being a secret religious cult.

Surely this could also mean that they are super effective at being secret?

[Evolett]

39 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

On 10/31/2022 at 6:14 PM, Evolett said:

There's really no evidence for the Citadel as an institution serving the Others or for being a secret religious cult.

Surely this could also mean that they are super effective at being secret?

What would their purpose as a secret religious cult dedicated to serving the Others be? To end all life? Take control of the kingdom with the help of the Others? Control the Others themselves? What is the motivation? 

[Sandy Clegg]

59 minutes ago, Evolett said:

What would their purpose as a secret religious cult dedicated to serving the Others be? To end all life? Take control of the kingdom with the help of the Others? Control the Others themselves? What is the motivation? 

I don't think they serve the Others necessarily, but they definitely have hidden agendas and seem to be pretty effective at whatever they aim to do, if we believe Marwyn that they 'killed the dragons'. What we lack is not only their motivation but also their means. It can't just be through knowledge. I personally think their Maester's links are something more than just decoration, but I don't have a solid theory yet.

It may have something to do with subtle mind control or 'powers of suggestion'. Maester Luwin always fiddling with his chain when Ned and Catelyn were making all those key decisions in AGOT ... I always thought that he was gently steering or nudging them towards something, using the chains around his neck somehow. But that requires a bit of tinfoil as we don't know how that would work, in-universe. But isn't it an odd coincidence that in Winterfell, where we have a person of Valyrian blood in Jon Snow (R + L = J, clearly)  - and Winterfell also has one of the very few Maesters with a Valyrian steel link on his chain ...

[Loose Bolt]

In my head canon magic is neither good or evil by itself. But there are always people who will try to abuse it. So there should be some kind brotherhood or guild watching and if necessary eliminating those people who use magic for evil purposes. Or I assume that when magic users were more common it were Maesters who tried to control who would have access to magic and eliminated those people who abused their magical abilities.

[Evolett]

33 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

It may have something to do with subtle mind control or 'powers of suggestion'. Maester Luwin always fiddling with his chain when Ned and Catelyn were making all those key decisions in AGOT ... I always thought that he was gently steering or nudging them towards something, using the chains around his neck somehow.

Well they also officially funtion in an advisory capacity (Cressen's prologue clarifies that) and on account of their knowledge are taken seriously in this regard, mostly, so I'm not too sure about a deliberate magical influencing here. They can easily influence decisions or opinions by applying relevant knowledge and rhetoric. Barbery Dustin is not wrong there. 

33 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

But isn't it an odd coincidence that in Winterfell, where we have a person of Valyrian blood in Jon Snow (R + L = J, clearly)  - and Winterfell also has one of the very few Maesters with a Valyrian steel link on his chain ...

No, it doesn't surprise me that Luwin ends up in Winterfell, a loaction that has to be known to the Citadel as a potential hub of magic, even without Jon being there. With the Citadel's goal of replacing magic with knowledge, it makes sense for a maester who has studied the arts to be placed there, the better to investigate and to educate the new generation in accordance with their goals. 

It is interesting though, that after being fatally wounded, Luwin drags himself to the heart tree where he bleeds out and is also killed off-screen by Osha. 

[Sandy Clegg]

56 minutes ago, Evolett said:

They can easily influence decisions or opinions by applying relevant knowledge and rhetoric. Barbery Dustin is not wrong there. 

Yes,  that doesn't mean they don't resort to other means at times. Not all police who carry guns ever have to fire one, but they carry one just the same.

Jon makes this observation regarding the Maesters links, which I think gropes somewhat towards the truth without ever quite reaching it:

Quote

"I asked why each link was a different metal. A silver chain would look much finer with his grey robes, I said. Maester Luwin laughed. A maester forges his chain with study, he told me. The different metals are each a different kind of learning, gold for the study of money and accounts, silver for healing, iron for warcraft. And he said there were other meanings as well. The collar is supposed to remind a maester of the realm he serves, isn't that so? Lords are gold and knights steel, but two links can't make a chain. You also need silver and iron and lead, tin and copper and bronze and all the rest, and those are farmers and smiths and merchants and the like. A chain needs all sorts of metals, and a land needs all sorts of people."

- AGOT, Jon V

He connects the different types of link with different types of people. Here the analogy is an innocent one, but GRRM could be laying the seeds for a different interpretation. 

Quote

It is interesting though, that after being fatally wounded, Luwin drags himself to the heart tree where he bleeds out and is also killed off-screen by Osha.

A suggestion that he may be trying to get his mind uploaded into the Weirwood network? If the Citadel have this kind of knowledge then that would make them powerful indeed.

[Evolett]

25 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

He connects the different types of link with different types of people. Here the analogy is an innocent one, but GRRM could be laying the seeds for a different interpretation. 

Quote

It is interesting though, that after being fatally wounded, Luwin drags himself to the heart tree where he bleeds out and is also killed off-screen by Osha.

A suggestion that he may be trying to get his mind uploaded into the Weirwood network? If the Citadel have this kind of knowledge then that would make them powerful indeed.

Actually, I think it's the other way round. Combining the knowledge the Citadel possesses with information the Weirnet already has would make the weirnet or those who can access it very powerful. The weirnet is not all-knowing and all-seeing. There are limits to the information stored there. They are no longer ubiquitos and are significantly reduced in number in the south. This has been the case for centuries. A network is only as good as the information fed to it and this is lacking in several areas as far as weirwoods are concerned. Osha implies this when she says that the old gods will not be able to help Robb in the south. 

The missing info might however be vital to solving the problem of the Others and of the seasons. The maesters of the Citadel, especially those who forge many links representing various fields of expertise, including that of Valyrian steel, may provide the "missing links" in the knowledge chain. So Luwin passing on beneath the Winterfell weirwood is significant indeed.  A chain needs many types of metals as a tree needs many different sources of knowledge. 

Patchface is another character who has knowledge that needs to be tapped and deciphered. His under the sea statements are not prophecies but histories, knowledge of events that occured predominantly in Essos, a continent to which the weirnet has had no access for thousands of years because of the broken arm of Dorne. It wouldn't surprise me if like Luwin, his death will occur beneath a weirwood, accidentally or as a sacrifice, or if he was skinchanged by Bran or another powerful greenseer to access that knowledge. 

[LongRider]

5 hours ago, Evolett said:

Patchface is another character who has knowledge that needs to be tapped and deciphered. His under the sea statements are not prophecies but histories, knowledge of events that occured predominantly in Essos,

This is a new idea for me, and I like it, not prophecy but history.  

[Corvo the Crow]

Maesters are there to advise the lords on their marriages to ensure Maesters breeding program goes according to plan. Maester Luwin was supposed to kill all sons of Eddard and his daughter was to be married to Lannisters, but out of love for Eddard Luwin didn't perform his orders and now Bran will be Kwisatz Haderach.

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Bran will be Kwisatz Haderach.

I thought Jon was Kwisatz Haderach. At least according to your signature?

[Corvo the Crow]

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I thought Jon was Kwisatz Haderach. At least according to your signature?

Yeah right, sorry! For a moment I've mistaken the God Worm Leto II and Kwisatz Haderach Usul Paul Muad'dib. Rhaegar messed up the breeding program.

[Craving Peaches]

26 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Yeah right, sorry! For a moment I've mistaken the God Worm Leto II and Kwisatz Haderach Usul Paul Muad'dib. Rhaegar messed up the breeding program.

Rhaegar was trying for a girl, wasn't he? His Visenya. Lyanna was ordered to have only females but she wanted to spite Rhaegar.

[Only 89 selfies today]

On 10/30/2022 at 9:00 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

The Others have allies in the world of men.  Some men are willing allies and some do not know any better.  I am slowly refining my theories and I hope to have a single theory that can explain the conflict between Fire and Ice.  

The willing allies are Euron, the Citadel, the Faceless Men, and the Starks' ancestors.  I give to you a famous quote:

 

Euron, like the Faceless Men, cause mass deaths.  He expects a reward of power for his services.  The ancestors of the Starks expected the same rewards for their services.  These services are human sacrifices.  The Citadel's leadership know of the Others and serve them.  I can give the majority of the Maesters the benefit of the doubt and believe they are ignorant.  The Archmaesters and the teachers push their ideologies through the curriculum.  They want to hide the existence of magic and the Others from the people.  @Bowen Marsh said something that filled one hole in the puzzle.  The Order of Maesters is a religious cult hiding behind the shield of academics and science.  The real purpose of the cult is to make the way easier for the Others.  Arya's acceptance into the Order was no accident.  Her ancestors served the Others and they are counting on her to carry out a mass murder on an unprecedented level.  

I now believe the Grand Maesters were "poisoning" the Targaryen kings.  They know of the Prince Who Was Promised and Azor Ahai.  They will do anything to try to stop Azor Ahai from returning.  But Nature and fate are more powerful.  What must happen took place on the edge of the Dothraki Sea when Daenerys Targaryen was reborn into Azor Ahai.  Her birth and rebirth had to take place in the safety of exile where the Maesters have no access.  It had to happen in Essos where there are none of those blasted weir woods.  

1 - Daenerys is Azor Ahai Reborn.  Yes she is.  

2 - Craster and the Starks are from the same family line.  Yes.  They were both giving their babies to the Others.  The Others are Starks.  

3 - The Citadel is not a monolithic group of Maesters.  Each student brings the baggage of family with them to the school.  Some of the grand maesters were forcing abortions and miscarriages on the Targaryen women.  The Targaryen kings who went nuts were victims of the maesters.   Euron is playing his own game.   The Faceless Men are the ones who are monolithic as they seek to kill a lot of people.  Faceless are the ones who serve the White Walkers.   

[Craving Peaches]

4 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

The Targaryen kings who went nuts were victims of the maesters.

They were either the victims of inbreeding, or just horrible people. I don't think some of the cruel ones were actually mad, just awful individuals. No excuses.

[Corvo the Crow]

4 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

 

2 - Craster and the Starks are from the same family line.  Yes.  They were both giving their babies to the Others.  The Others are Starks.  

 

Nope, no evidence for it. We know of no NW Stark around the time of Craster's birth and even if there's, Craster looks nothing like a Stark.

[Craving Peaches]

Seven-who-are-one be good, if there was any resemblance between Craster and the Starks intended, Jon would have mentioned it when he met the man. That he did not means that there is no resemblance.

[Rosetta Stone]

On 10/30/2022 at 9:00 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

The Others have allies in the world of men.  Some men are willing allies and some do not know any better.  I am slowly refining my theories and I hope to have a single theory that can explain the conflict between Fire and Ice.  

The willing allies are Euron, the Citadel, the Faceless Men, and the Starks' ancestors.  I give to you a famous quote:

 

Euron, like the Faceless Men, cause mass deaths.  He expects a reward of power for his services.  The ancestors of the Starks expected the same rewards for their services.  These services are human sacrifices.  The Citadel's leadership know of the Others and serve them.  I can give the majority of the Maesters the benefit of the doubt and believe they are ignorant.  The Archmaesters and the teachers push their ideologies through the curriculum.  They want to hide the existence of magic and the Others from the people.  @Bowen Marsh said something that filled one hole in the puzzle.  The Order of Maesters is a religious cult hiding behind the shield of academics and science.  The real purpose of the cult is to make the way easier for the Others.  Arya's acceptance into the Order was no accident.  Her ancestors served the Others and they are counting on her to carry out a mass murder on an unprecedented level.  

I now believe the Grand Maesters were "poisoning" the Targaryen kings.  They know of the Prince Who Was Promised and Azor Ahai.  They will do anything to try to stop Azor Ahai from returning.  But Nature and fate are more powerful.  What must happen took place on the edge of the Dothraki Sea when Daenerys Targaryen was reborn into Azor Ahai.  Her birth and rebirth had to take place in the safety of exile where the Maesters have no access.  It had to happen in Essos where there are none of those blasted weir woods.  

The maesters are academics but they have a closed mind. They are stuck in their dogma and haven't carried Westeros to the future.  The Targaryens were the victims of that dogma.