How Come Nobody Ever Noticed Renly's Preferrences?

[Corvo the Crow]

During the Parley, Stannis outright says You are gay.

Quote

"We both know your wedding was a mummer's farce. A year ago you were scheming to make the girl one of Robert's whores."

"A year ago I was scheming to make the girl Robert's queen," Renly said, "but what does it matter? The boar got Robert and I got Margaery. You'll be pleased to know she came to me a maid."

"In your bed she's like to die that way."

He litrerally told in front of them all that Renly is gay. More importantly, he says this because he is aware of it. If Stannis is aware of it, how come the other lords are not? Sure there would be those who won't care as long as they get more power, but I don't see bigots like Randyll Tarly following him for anything besides gelding him(Alan Turing for examplechose to be chemically castrated instead of poisinoing) or whatever medieval sort of punishment they have.

[The hairy bear]

Renly being "gay" is not a secret. His preferences are widely known. Even outside his family or inner circle, people like Jaime or Tyrion are well aware of it.

The attitude towards homosexuality in Westeros is far more tolerant than early 20th century Britain. And closer to classical antiquity, where people like Achilles. Alexander the Great, Epaminondas or Hadrian were great military leaders and were what we would call openly homosexuals.

[Craving Peaches]

It appears to be somewhat of an open secret at court. I doubt Renly's openly flaunting it but it seems to be people don't care as long as it's behind closed doors.

49 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I don't see bigots like Randyll Tarly

Randyll supposedly loves Renly so...

[chrisdaw]

It's not an issue, no-one cares, maybe tolerance is being purposely matched to the prominence of religion, and as the Faith rises so will general tolerance decline.

[frenin]

If Oberyn knew, you can bet your ass that it's an open secret.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

The attitude towards homosexuality in Westeros is far more tolerant than early 20th century Britain. And closer to classical antiquity, where people like Achilles. Alexander the Great, Epaminondas or Hadrian were great military leaders and were what we would call openly homosexuals.

You said it, antiquty. Medieval world, at least christians which Fot7 was based off of was far less tolerant.

 

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

It appears to be somewhat of an open secret at court. I doubt Renly's openly flaunting it but it seems to be people don't care as long as it's behind closed doors.

As I said, I can see most not caring much, well, at least as far as it isn’t their son getting lanced, but I can’t see zealot  bigots like Randyll being fine with it, no matter how power hungry they are.

 

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Randyll supposedly loves Renly so...

Randyll is supposed to be a great warrior, maybe Renly was polishing his sword for him…

 

52 minutes ago, frenin said:

If Oberyn knew, you can bet your ass that it's an open secret.

A-ha! So that’s what Renly meant by Dorne will rise for him.

[Craving Peaches]

5 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Randyll is supposed to be a great warrior, maybe Renly was polishing his sword for him…

Ser Courtnay says this:

Quote

"If that is so, why is the Knight of Flowers not among you? And where is Mathis Rowan? Randyll Tarly? Lady Oakheart? Why are they not here in your company, they who loved Renly best? Where is Brienne of Tarth, I ask you?"

Jokes aside I do wonder what Renly did to make Tarly love him. I don't think charisma alone would be enough to win Randyll over but I could be wrong.

[Daeron the Daring]

To understand the attitude towards Renly, you would have to understand the attitude people had for  Edward II of England, John II of France or even William II of England.

People were either (and often) patient with gay monarchs, discredited the story, or saw it as opportunities.

I think if you've seen HOTD, Corlys' attitude towards Laenor was what many people had in those times.

And while, for example, Edward's sexuality became his cause of being deposed and murdered, it took people a long-ass time to get to that point.

[Tyrosh Lannister]

Maybe Randyll was not homophobic 

[Nevets]

It may be an open secret, secret being the operative word.  He is still more or less closeted and isn't making his preference obvious. 

Contrast with Lyn Corbray, who it appears everyone knows is gay.  Catelyn indicated in her thoughts it was well known.  She didn't seem to approve.  So I'm guessing it's tolerated though probably looked down on.

[Alester Florent]

Westerosi society doesn't seem to care as much about homosexuality as the real-world Middle Ages did so long as you're otherwise fulfilling the role that society expects you to. There might be a bit of mockery and eye-rolling behind one's back but people for the most part don't seem to consider it an abomination in and of itself (I can't remember if we're told whether the Seven have an opinion on it in the way that the church did IRL).

Renly is a decent lord and a decent knight so nobody cares too much what he gets up to in the bedroom. Oberyn Martell's reputation is if anything enhanced by his rumoured bisexuality. Most commentators (including Jaime Lannister) have no trouble recognising Loras Tyrell's qualities despite his sexuality. Cersei seems to hold it against Loras (not wanting him around Tommen) but Cersei is basically mad by that point.

Laenor seems to be the exception, and while it's possible that views on sexuality changed in the intervening 200-odd years, more likely is that people disliked Laenor because quite apart from his sexuality he wasn't doing what he was supposed to: he didn't have any real interest in the martial arts, and showed no real aptitude or enthusiasm for governance, not a good look for the heir to a major family and future prince consort.

This sketch comes to mind...

 

[The hairy bear]

9 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

You said it, antiquty. Medieval world, at least christians which Fot7 was based off of was far less tolerant.

That doesn't mean that every aspect from our Medieval history can be automatically transferred to Westeros. George has claimed several times that "In general, though, while I do draw inspiration from history, I try to avoid direct one-for-one transplants, whether of individuals or of entire cultures."

Many aspects of Westeros are different than 15th century Medieval Europe: the size of the continent, medicine, the influence of the Church, the organization of the cities, etc. Just because something happened in our history it doesn't mean that it's a must in Martin's. This article claims that Westeros resembles mora an early modern society than a medieval one.

9 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

You said it, antiquty. Medieval world, at least christians which Fot7 was based off of was far less tolerant.

The atitudes towards homosexuals during the Middle Ages varied a lot across countries and centuries. In some times and places was a deadly ofense, but in many other instances it was just seen as a sin comparable to any other sexual act not aimed at reproduction, such as adultery or onanism.

[Craving Peaches]

8 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

And while, for example, Edward's sexuality became his cause of being deposed and murdered, it took people a long-ass time to get to that point.

Also he gave his 'favourite' Piers Gaveston loads of important positions and favours etc. The only important positions Loras gets are LC of Renly's kingsguard and to lead the Vanguard, both of which are perfectly suitable positions to give, given Loras' skill as a knight.

[Alester Florent]

Medieval customs being what they were, it's not always clear how to interpret male relationships: it wasn't at all uncommon, for instance, for platonic male friends to share a bed, and kissing was much less sexualised. Clearly, Edward's relationship with Piers Gaveston was inappropriately close, but it wasn't necessarily sexual. It's possible that the suggestion that it was was applied in order to heap infamy on a king who was already unpopular for other reasons.

In any case, Gaveston had been dead for years by the time Edward was overthrown. Indeed, Mortimer, who deposed Edward, had been one of Gaveston's closest friends. The proximate cause of Edward II's deposition was the unbelievable corruption at his court, coupled with a general failure to apply himself effectively to the problems facing the realm which his lords cared about (such as the war with Scotland). At the same time, those individuals who had just about kept things on the rails had either died or been hounded out of office by the Despensers (including, to an extent, the queen).

Really he was overthrown for being half tyrant and half incompetent boob, not because of his sexuality.

 

[Daeron the Daring]

9 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Also he gave his 'favourite' Piers Gaveston loads of important positions and favours etc. The only important positions Loras gets are LC of Renly's kingsguard and to lead the Vanguard, both of which are perfectly suitable positions to give, given Loras' skill as a knight.

Exactly. Ultimately it was Edward's favoritism towards Gaveston and later Hugh Despenser what made him lose the throne and later his life too. He wasn't the only one ever to lose the grip on power because of favoritism, he just happened to had chosen his favorites because they were his gay lovers.

And while Edward's sexuality certainly made a lot of people dislike him, that alone was never enough.