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Why didn't Ned bring Lord Dustin's bones with him?


Tyrosh Lannister

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17 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

It's common for soldiers killed in battle to be buried nearby. Flanders Field is full of Brits, Canadians, Americans, as well as Germans and Austrians.

Better to give a proper burial in their homeland. And Lord Dustin was no ordinary soldier: he was a close friend of Ned's and a lord 

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Because Lord Dustin was not dead yet.  He remained at or near the Tower of Joy, and he must have died there, because  he("never lived to ride away".  But when he did die, maybe some years later, Ned Stark was not around to build a cairn to protect his bones, so they could be preserved for later transport.  So the wild animals got Dustin's bones.

The reason for the 8 cairns is the 8 bodies, including Lyanna's.  If you don't have a team of silent sisters in your pocket, you need to protect the body under a cairn, until the bones are ready for transport.

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On 11/4/2022 at 4:37 AM, Tyrosh Lannister said:

Better to give a proper burial in their homeland. And Lord Dustin was no ordinary soldier: he was a close friend of Ned's and a lord 

Ned loved his sister and his brother.  He didn't love the fallen men.  Most people are sheep and do not question their wolf lords.  So the other families just hid their disappointment and accepted what Ned did.  What could they do about it?  Nothing.  Sheep complaining to the wolf would not have helped.  Some people are not sheep though.  Barbrey Dustin among them.  

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It isn't just the Dustin whose bones weren't brought to North though. Ned could just as well have left Lyanna there, but he didn't because she wanted to go home.

Quote

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

 

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It's highly probable that Ned didn't take anyone's bones with him when he left the tower of joy.  It's just another clue that Lyanna wasn't in the tower of joy when Ned saw her on her deathbed.  After all the only piece of evidence we have linking her death to the tower of joy is the chronology of Ned's fever dream.  And unlike reality, dreams can easily shift from one location to another and from one time to another.

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8 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

It's highly probable that Ned didn't take anyone's bones with him when he left the tower of joy.  It's just another clue that Lyanna wasn't in the tower of joy when Ned saw her on her deathbed.  After all the only piece of evidence we have linking her death to the tower of joy is the chronology of Ned's fever dream.  And unlike reality, dreams can easily shift from one location to another and from one time to another.

I’ve heard this one before, but I personally don’t think it makes much sense… why are the King’s Guard at the Tower of Joy then? Are you suggesting someone else was giving birth to Rhaegar’s child? Some other child? Something else all together?

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46 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

How hard would it have been to transport six sets of bones (Lyanna plus Ned's companions, minus one Reed)?

As hard as transporting those bones, with the flesh still attached, to somewhere they could be boiled and be made sets of bones and bones only. 

People forget that Ned didn't even carry Arthur back to his home, a place he went anyway to bring back his sword. So it was either a) not an easy thing or b) very acceptable to have them  buried there where they died, since we don't get anything like Arthur's body being carried back by Dayne's either. Perhaps it is both. Lyanna wanted to be brought back, if she didn't, perhaps he'd bury her there too.

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12 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I’ve heard this one before, but I personally don’t think it makes much sense… why are the King’s Guard at the Tower of Joy then? Are you suggesting someone else was giving birth to Rhaegar’s child? Some other child? Something else all together?

The Kingsguard are presumably at the tower of joy through the orders of King Aerys.  They do tell Ned that they have been loyal Kingsguards throughout.  I'm suggesting that they were given an order by the King, and they were seeing that order through.  

I'm also suggesting that there wasn't a birth at the tower of joy.  Or if there was, it wasn't Jon.  Now that doesn't mean that baby Jon wasn't present at the tower of joy.  And it doesn't mean that the Kingsguards presence didn't have to sometthing to do with Jon.  I'm just skeptical that they were there as Jon's bodyguards/protectors.

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1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

The Kingsguard are presumably at the tower of joy through the orders of King Aerys.  They do tell Ned that they have been loyal Kingsguards throughout.  I'm suggesting that they were given an order by the King, and they were seeing that order through.  

I'm also suggesting that there wasn't a birth at the tower of joy.  Or if there was, it wasn't Jon.  Now that doesn't mean that baby Jon wasn't present at the tower of joy.  And it doesn't mean that the Kingsguards presence didn't have to sometthing to do with Jon.  I'm just skeptical that they were there as Jon's bodyguards/protectors.

Why were they there then, in Dorne, whose inhabitants Aerys dislikes to put it mildly.

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1 minute ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Why were they there then, in Dorne, whose inhabitants Aerys dislikes to put it mildly.

You would also have to ask yourself why would Rhaegar put Lyanna smack down in the middle of the Prince's Pass.  If Rhaegar was indeed putting Elia aside in favor of the Northern girl.  It seems an odd place to put her, smack dab in Manwoody territory.  Especially since when we first meet Lord Manwoody in ASOS, he is serving as Oberyn's squire before Oberyn's duel with the Mountain.

I'm assuming that Aerys,Rhaegar, and perhaps other parties may have had a common cause despite their mutual dislike and distrust of each other.  Something that Eddard had to stop at all costs.  And perhaps a tower in the middle of the Prince's Pass was a good halfway point for all parties to come together.

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28 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

The Kingsguard are presumably at the tower of joy through the orders of King Aerys.  They do tell Ned that they have been loyal Kingsguards throughout.  I'm suggesting that they were given an order by the King, and they were seeing that order through.  

I'm also suggesting that there wasn't a birth at the tower of joy.  Or if there was, it wasn't Jon.  Now that doesn't mean that baby Jon wasn't present at the tower of joy.  And it doesn't mean that the Kingsguards presence didn't have to sometthing to do with Jon.  I'm just skeptical that they were there as Jon's bodyguards/protectors.

I appreciate skeptical, but it seems like a bit of a leap to go from that to Lyanna not being there. However, one has to admit that what we have is mostly association and not straight facts about these events.

The Kingsguard knew of Aerys’s death, to me that says they believed their duty was at the tower of joy. I have a hard time seeing that as being due to an order from a dead king, but must admit it’s not impossible.

24 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

You would also have to ask yourself why would Rhaegar put Lyanna smack down in the middle of the Prince's Pass.  If Rhaegar was indeed putting Elia aside in favor of the Northern girl.  It seems an odd place to put her, smack dab in Manwoody territory.  Especially since when we first meet Lord Manwoody in ASOS, he is serving as Oberyn's squire before Oberyn's duel with the Mountain.

I'm assuming that Aerys,Rhaegar, and perhaps other parties may have had a common cause despite their mutual dislike and distrust of each other.  Something that Eddard had to stop at all costs.  And perhaps a tower in the middle of the Prince's Pass was a good halfway point for all parties to come together.

It seems to me the proximity to Starfall and Rhaegar’s friendship with Arthur Dayne, who was there, provide a simple justification.

The name, tower of joy, which was where Lancelot brought Gwenivere (which means “white ghost”) is also some pretty thick symbolism for me to get over.

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22 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

It seems to me the proximity to Starfall and Rhaegar’s friendship with Arthur Dayne, who was there, provide a simple justification.

I think Starfall is the most logical place for where Rhaegar would have brought Lyanna.  Remotely located in the middle of a lake in the middle of the Red Mountains, far away from the war in the Stormlands, and Riverlands.  The castle of the family of Rhaegar’s best and closest confidant.  Where they could properly care for a pregnant woman and her unborn child.

Putting Lyanna in the Prince’s Pass seems reckless.  Putting aside for an instance that a tower that can be dismantled by a single person doesn’t seem to be a fitting or safe place for a pregnant woman, the fact that the Pass is used for Dornish armies to move through or for enemy armies to move into Dorne, it would possibly put her in the middle of a war.  

It’s also the territory of House Manwoody, a loyal House to the Martells, that may possibly be closely aligned to Oberyn Martell as I stated above.  If Rhaegar was indeed putting Elia aside for Lyanna, than that would be an extremely dangerous locale for Lyanna to stay.

Lyanna being at Starfall also provides a solution to Eddard’s very unusual decision to travel though enemy territory, and through Mountains, and into an enemy castle, just to return a sword.  A decision even stranger if Eddard also had a baby to care for.  It would seem that Eddard would have brought Jon to a safe locale and have arranged for the sword to have been delivered to House Dayne at a later date.

However, if Lyanna was indeed at Starfall, then it would make more sense for Eddard to take the journey if Eddard was taking Jon back to his mother.

As for Rhaegar naming it the tower of joy, we have to be very careful in our knowledge of who or what Rhaegar truly loved. 

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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

You would also have to ask yourself why would Rhaegar put Lyanna smack down in the middle of the Prince's Pass.  If Rhaegar was indeed putting Elia aside in favor of the Northern girl.  It seems an odd place to put her, smack dab in Manwoody territory.  Especially since when we first meet Lord Manwoody in ASOS, he is serving as Oberyn's squire before Oberyn's duel with the Mountain.

I'm assuming that Aerys,Rhaegar, and perhaps other parties may have had a common cause despite their mutual dislike and distrust of each other.  Something that Eddard had to stop at all costs.  And perhaps a tower in the middle of the Prince's Pass was a good halfway point for all parties to come together.

That's been on my mind as well; why of all places hide Lyanna in the homeland of the wife he was putting aside? Unless Elia consented? And how would one know about that?

Unless Rhaegar intended to annul his marriage to Elia...

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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think Starfall is the most logical place for where Rhaegar would have brought Lyanna.  Remotely located in the middle of a lake in the middle of the Red Mountains, far away from the war in the Stormlands, and Riverlands.  The castle of the family of Rhaegar’s best and closest confidant.  Where they could properly care for a pregnant woman and her unborn child.

I don’t know, an out of the way tower seems to fit the bill for me and I suspect the logic is that it would be comfortable but with few witnesses.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Putting Lyanna in the Prince’s Pass seems reckless.

I don’t really see this.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Putting aside for an instance that a tower that can be dismantled by a single person

There were at least two, Ned and Howland, and several horses. 

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

doesn’t seem to be a fitting or safe place for a pregnant woman

It seems to have turned out safer than the Red Keep. There were Kingsguard protecting it, secrecy is a good shield, and while nowhere is really safe for giving birth, it doesn’t seem unreasonable to me that there would have been at least a midwife or Maester (that Maester Lewin came with Cat to Winterfell has always left the former Maester of Winterfell as a missing piece).

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

, the fact that the Pass is used for Dornish armies to move through or for enemy armies to move into Dorne, it would possibly put her in the middle of a war.

But it didn’t, the Dornish spears moved through a different pass.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

It’s also the territory of House Manwoody, a loyal House to the Martells, that may possibly be closely aligned to Oberyn Martell as I stated above.  If Rhaegar was indeed putting Elia aside for Lyanna, than that would be an extremely dangerous locale for Lyanna to stay.

The Dornish have different ideas about love and partnerships than the rest of Westeros. I’ve never gotten the sense of any animosity towards the Starks from the Martels.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Lyanna being at Starfall also provides a solution to Eddard’s very unusual decision to travel though enemy territory, and through Mountains, and into an enemy castle, just to return a sword.  A decision even stranger if Eddard also had a baby to care for.  It would seem that Eddard would have brought Jon to a safe locale and have arranged for the sword to have been delivered to House Dayne at a later date.

And even stranger given that Ashara “jumped from a tower into the sea”. I agree that there is likely a reason beyond the sword that Ned went to Starfall, I’m just not sure I agree that this is it.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

However, if Lyanna was indeed at Starfall, then it would make more sense for Eddard to take the journey if Eddard was taking Jon back to his mother.

I think the possibility of Lyanna having had two children is not insignificant.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

As for Rhaegar naming it the tower of joy, we have to be very careful in our knowledge of who or what Rhaegar truly loved. 

I believe that Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, but I suppose I cannot be sure.

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6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

It's highly probable that Ned didn't take anyone's bones with him when he left the tower of joy.  It's just another clue that Lyanna wasn't in the tower of joy when Ned saw her on her deathbed.  After all the only piece of evidence we have linking her death to the tower of joy is the chronology of Ned's fever dream.  And unlike reality, dreams can easily shift from one location to another and from one time to another.

Ashara was a big part of that picture.  It is probable for Ashara to have given birth to a blonde baby at the Tower of Joy.  The pregnant Lyanna was in hiding at Starfall.  There are four probable fathers for Jon Snow if we assume Lyanna was his mom.  Brandon Stark, Rhaegar Targaryen, Mance Rayder, and Arthur Dayne.  I like Arthur Dayne because it answers who will use Dawn.  Ashara has four probable lovers.  Rhaegar Targaryen, Brandon Stark, Aerys Targaryen, and Ned Stark.  Only Rhaegar and Aerys could produce a blonde baby Aegon.  (Dany is too young to be in this picture).  Who could dishonor a lady from the respected house Dayne and not receive so much as a frown?  Only one.  Aerys Targaryen, the King of Westeros.   

Wild theories say the Crannogman was Lady Ashara's lover and dishonored her.  I don't agree.  

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9 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

You would also have to ask yourself why would Rhaegar put Lyanna smack down in the middle of the Prince's Pass.  If Rhaegar was indeed putting Elia aside in favor of the Northern girl.  It seems an odd place to put her, smack dab in Manwoody territory.  Especially since when we first meet Lord Manwoody in ASOS, he is serving as Oberyn's squire before Oberyn's duel with the Mountain.

I'm assuming that Aerys,Rhaegar, and perhaps other parties may have had a common cause despite their mutual dislike and distrust of each other.  Something that Eddard had to stop at all costs.  And perhaps a tower in the middle of the Prince's Pass was a good halfway point for all parties to come together.

We don't know if it's Manwoody territory. Sure the closest we know is Manwoodys but ToJ is located at the north end of the Prince's Pass, which is guarded by Fowlers, Wardens of the Prince's Pass so the territory might be theirs. Either way, even in the south we see vast portions of land uninhabited by anyone, sure this lord or that might claim them, may even own them on paper but they are empty. This is probably one such area, especially considering it is on Prince's Pass and the northern end of it, close to Marcher lords. Rhaegar could just have chosen it because it is in the middle of nowhere with no one around, no one possibly even passing near it and still close enough to his friend Arthur's home. I think it was most likely Arthur Dayne knew of this place andit was he who suggested this abandoned tower.

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On 11/2/2022 at 4:05 AM, Craving Peaches said:

I can see a few possibilities.

1. The body was absolutely trashed. All the bones were broken. Nothing left to bring home.

2. The body wasn't there for some reason. Either Lord Dustin himself wasn't present (unlikely) or someone stole the body.

3. There was some specific reason why Ned wished to burry/leave the bones there.

It's also possible that Dustin did not die. Or that he "died" in the ASOIAF sense - meaning he was immediately reborn. I think this happens when people are not buried according to their family tradition: a Tully has to be placed in a boat on the river and a flaming arrow shot into the boat; Targaryens are burned; Starks are placed in the crypt with a stone likeness, a stone wolf and a sword across the lap.

Since Dustin's family is in charge of Barrow Town, his ancestors are presumably interred in barrows. If he is not placed in a barrow, his soul might be subject to rebirth. This could relate to your third point - that Ned had a reason for leaving the bones at the site of the Tower in the Prince's Pass. I think his reason is that he wanted guards at this strategic pass in and out of Dorne and that "dead" guards were just the ticket.

On 11/2/2022 at 10:54 AM, Evolett said:

We actually do not know how Northerners go about preparing the dead for burial or if in their case the Silent Sisters, being of the Faith, are involved at all.

The Silent Sisters are key here, I believe. Lyanna is the quintessential "silent" sister of Ned Stark - we don't know exactly what she wanted Ned to promise, we don't know whether she loved Robert or Rhaegar, we don't know whether she played a major role in the story of the Little Crannogman at the Harrenhal Tourney. The scene where Ned and Ser Barristan are tsk tsking over the body of Hugh of the Vale includes a Silent Sister who is, not surprisingly, silent throughout the situation. But GRRM makes a point of describing some of what she does or the way she looks - so rare for a minor character like this. I think she represents the silent sister Lyanna, who wanted Ned to (we believe) protect her son. The fact that the dialogue involves Ned and the Kings Guard knight Barristan Selmy should tell us that we should compare the scene to the Tower of Joy situation in Ned's dream. 

But my point in the discussion of Lord Dustin is that Ned may have left the eight knights / bannermen as a sort of honor guard for the lingering spirit of Lyanna. Silent Sisters are supposed to be "brides" of The Stranger, I believe. Maybe the eight dead men are somehow spouses for this queen bee of the Silent Sisters.

On 11/2/2022 at 7:28 PM, Ring3r said:

Lady Dustin seems to be the only person upset by this,

...

Lady Dustin is bitter at Ned....

Lady Dustin seems to be mad at Ned, but I think she might not be as mad as she would lead us to believe. She was really in love with uncle Brandon and she wanted to be a Stark. When her husband died, she became the nominal head of House Dustin and she kept that job up until the end of the fifth book and maybe beyond. Because barrows are ancient burial chambers, the head of House Dustin is a sort of "Queen of the Underworld" position, which is a pretty powerful job. With Lady Hornwood, we are told that Bran (in Robb's stead) has the power to choose a husband for the widow, in order to determine the inheritance of her husband's estate. Ned never did that for Lady Dustin.

Ned did bring back the red horse and this is really worth trying to understand. 

The sigil of House Ryswell, Lady Dustin's family line, is a red horse's head. In the symbolism of chess, a horse's head represents a knight. Another important horse's head in ASOIAF is the head of Gregor Clegane's horse, cut off in front of the crowd at the Hand's Tourney because the horse's interest in a filly in heat causes Gregor to lose his jousting match. 

Lady Dustin tells Theon that Brandon and Lyanna Stark were so horse-like that they were like centaurs. Arya is called "horse-face," and she is said to look like Lyanna (and Ned). So there is another reference to a horse's head. 

Like Rohanne Webber, Lady Dustin likes to give away horses. She gives colts to Little Walder and Big Walder. I think Ned returning the red horse of Lord Dustin is a way of showing that he will not accept one of her horses. When Lady Rohanne tries to give Dunk a horse, he declines. I don't know why he would not take the horse, but he won't. 

(I think I wrote about gift horses a year or two ago, although I still don't understand them entirely. Drogo gives Dany her "silver;" Joffrey receives a saddle and riding boots but no horse as a groom gift, etc.) 

On 11/10/2022 at 4:05 PM, Frey family reunion said:

You would also have to ask yourself why would Rhaegar put Lyanna smack down in the middle of the Prince's Pass.  If Rhaegar was indeed putting Elia aside in favor of the Northern girl.  It seems an odd place to put her, smack dab in Manwoody territory.  Especially since when we first meet Lord Manwoody in ASOS, he is serving as Oberyn's squire before Oberyn's duel with the Mountain.

I'm assuming that Aerys,Rhaegar, and perhaps other parties may have had a common cause despite their mutual dislike and distrust of each other.  Something that Eddard had to stop at all costs.  And perhaps a tower in the middle of the Prince's Pass was a good halfway point for all parties to come together.

This starts to get at a really important point because I think the explanation comes from a parallel where a prince has to pass through a bottleneck: Robb Stark at the Twins, crossing the Green Fork. He has to cross at that location and bloodshed ensues. What if Robb's need to cross into the North at that stage of the war is similar to Rhaegar's need to travel through the Prince's Pass?

Rhaegar is thought to be setting aside Elia in order to hook up with Lyanna; Robb Stark is betrothed to a Frey but ends up with a Westerling. If the parallel is correct, is it possible that the Martells killed Rhaegar? To punish him for cheating on Elia? This would be consistent with the Freys killing Robb. I think GRRM has said that Rhaegar is definitely dead, but maybe he wasn't in that suit of armor when Robert thought he was killing Rhaegar at the Ruby Ford. 

But maybe the parallel is all on their treatment of Ser Gregor. His head is eventually cut off and delivered to House Martell, to show contrition for the violence and death he inflicted on Elia and her children. Robb's head is cut off and replaced with the head of a wolf, which is left with House Frey. (Ser Gregor lives on in spite of losing his head, and I suspect that Robb Stark is symbolically reborn as well.) 

Lord Walder's current wife is named Joyeuse Erenford. I think she is symbolic of the Tower of Joy. "Eren" is the Dutch word for honor and a ford is a crossing. She is said to be pregnant and the sigil of House Erenford is a strangely detailed image of a heron, similar to a stork which delivers babies in some European folk traditions. 

If the parallel is correct between the crossing at the Green Fork and the Tower of Joy at the Prince's Pass, my next question would be, "Who are the twins?" The Frey castle is called The Twins. At the Prince's Pass, we have only one tower (unless you count Skyreach and Kingsgrave). Maybe the "twin" of the tower is the eight cairns? Made out of the same stones but serving as structures of death instead of joy. 

But I think the larger point is that Walder Frey's "Twins" may hint at the nature of the childbirth situation at the Tower of Joy. Perhaps it was not just Jon Snow's birthplace, but also the birthplace of his twin. (Could be Meera; could be someone else.) 

As for House Manwoody, I am always interested in anyone connected to Elaena Targaryen, sister of King Baelor and a resident of the maiden vault. Her descendants may include House Plumm, Waters, Longwater and Penrose. You could make a case that each of these houses has a sort of gatekeeping or "Lord of the Crossing" role.

(I believe that Petyr Baelish is also a descendant of Elaena. His role in the beheading of Ned Stark very much parallel to the "mayhaps" trickery of Walder Frey in beheading Robb Stark. Maybe Littlefinger is a Lord of the Crossing in his own way.)

"Manwoody" could also be wordplay on "many wood." The German words for "the woods" is "der Wald." I think Lord Walder and his many family members named Walda and Walder represent a forest. 

But back to Ned and the Dustins. 

From a literary analysis perspective, I suspect that Ned functions as the winter king and Robert Baratheon is the summer king. All of the bannermen for House Stark are on "Team Death." So Lady Dustin appears to be mad that her husband's bones were not returned to her, but a close reading might tell us that she just wants to ensure that Ned Stark's bones are not interred in the Winterfell crypt so his spirit can continue to be the god of death in Westeros. Her husband died at the Tower of Joy just as northern bannermen died with Brandon and Rickard at King's Landing and again at the Red Wedding with Robb Stark. This is what Stark bannermen do: die for their liege lord and then carry on their duties in the underworld. The other meaning of "crossing." 

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Great post @Seams, so many insightful points :)-

10 hours ago, Seams said:

From a literary analysis perspective, I suspect that Ned functions as the winter king and Robert Baratheon is the summer king. All of the bannermen for House Stark are on "Team Death."

For anyone unfamiliar with the concept of the North as a version of the Underworld and Ned in the role of Hades, I recommend @sweetsunny's series of articles on the Chthonic Cycle, in particular:

Winterfell and the North as the Underworld and

Hades, Warden of the North

 

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