Why didn't Ned bring Lord Dustin's bones with him?

[Frey family reunion]

13 hours ago, Seams said:

This starts to get at a really important point because I think the explanation comes from a parallel where a prince has to pass through a bottleneck: Robb Stark at the Twins, crossing the Green Fork. He has to cross at that location and bloodshed ensues. What if Robb's need to cross into the North at that stage of the war is similar to Rhaegar's need to travel through the Prince's Pass?

But Robb was a king when he passed through the twins wasn’t he?  Regardless, symbols aside, the issue comes down to what Rhaegar’s motivation truly was.  But to stick to the issue of the Prince’s Pass, I think we’re missing a possible inspiration for the location of the TOJ.

In the Bible we’re told of the story of the Valley of Hinnom, aka Gehenna aka Hell.  A historic valley surrounding ancient Jerusalem.  The valley, as legend has it, was the location of the Tophet, where the Kings of Judah allegedly sacrificed their children by fire.  One of the gods that the Kings of Judah sacrificed their children to was Moloch.  A bull headed god possibly inspired by the Greek Minotaur (who in turn was the offspring of the White Bull).  

The Bible used a euphemism for these fiery sacrifices, that these children were “passed through fire”.  In other words, the Kings of Judah would pass their princes through fire.  Is this secretly why George named this valley, the Prince’s Pass?

So what was Rhaegar’s motivation?  And how was he going to fulfill it?  We’re told that the one place Rhaegar truly loved was Summerhall.  We’re told that Summerhall was a Targaryen dream of dragons.   Dragons were a necessary component of the fulfillment of the Prince that was Promised prophecy.  How did Rhaegar plan on having this prophecy fulfilled?

I agree Lyanna is a good stand in for the Greek goddess Persephone.  But Rhaegar has never really been a good stand in for her abductor, Hades.  However, the musically inclined Rhaegar would make a good stand in for another character involved in the stories of Persephone and Hades, the Greek bard Orpheus.

 In the Greek tales, Orpheus travels to the underworld to make a plea to Hades to release his dead wife.  Orpheus sings a tale so sad, that it brings Hades wife, Persephone,  to tears, and she convinces her husband to allow Orpheus to take his wife from the underworld.  Hades relents under one condition, that Orpheus’ wife is to follow Orpheus from the underworld, but if Orpheus ever looks back to check on her, she will be lost to him forever.

So Rhaegar, our Orpheus, travels to a Harrenhal, a stand in for the underworld, and he sings a sad song that makes our Persephone, Lyanna, cry.  So who is Rhaegar’s true love that he wishes to return from the dead?

My guess is he’s singing of the death of dragons.  

Now fast forward to Daenaerys, the one who actually brings the dragons back from the dead.  There is a lot of symbolism that Dany has taken up Rhaegar’s mantle.  In the House of the Undying she sees a vision of Rhaegar at the Trident, and when he lifts up his visor, she sees her face underneath.

When Dany is building her funeral pyre which brings back the dragons, the one thought she keeps returning to is “if she looks back, she is lost”.  Which is what Orpheus is told when he tried to bring his true love back from the dead.

So does Rhaegar name it the tower of joy, because that’s the location he planned on bringing back his dragons, his true love, from the dead?  Does Gerold Hightower symbolize the Minotaur or Moloch?

And what of the Harrenhal bat.  We’re told of legends of the Harrenhal bat flying away with children which are taken to a cauldron.  In Aztec legend, the Aztecs would sacrifice their children to a bat god

And then there is our Morningstar, Arthur Dayne.  There was a horrific ceremony involving the Pawnee tribe of Native Americans, called the Morning Star ceremony.  It involved the abduction of a young girl from another tribe.  They would tie her to a wooden scaffold, and then riders would take burning branches and touch them to her armpits and groin.  They would call this being touched by fire.   She would then would be shot through the heart with an arrow.  (Perhaps this brings to mind Ygritte or perhaps Rattlesnake’s demise).  

Three symbols of child sacrifice surround the “tower of joy”.  

Perhaps this is why Eddard knew this would be a fight to the death, and why he tore down the tower’s bloody stones.

[LindsayLohan]

Crazy theory: Ned’s actual memories are accurate, his friends died exactly where he remembered them dying, and he buried them all.

[Mourning Star]

13 hours ago, Seams said:

With Lady Hornwood, we are told that Bran (in Robb's stead) has the power to choose a husband for the widow, in order to determine the inheritance of her husband's estate. Ned never did that for Lady Dustin.

I consider this another point in favor of the idea that Lord Dustin did not die at the Tower of Joy...

[1000th Lord Commander]

I think it is simple logistics. It is one thing to carry 1 body (as well as a child), another thing to carry eight.

From the read of it, there is no one around to help Ned at this critical point except for Howland Reed. The tower of joy has no nearby settlements, no smallfolk to compel or bribe. He also needs to conceal the fact that Lyanna dies in childbirth, hence the need to take her body away. To take one body away is manageable for two people, given they would have had all the horses. They also need speed, as they have no wet nurse immediately available to feed Jon.

He also carries Dawn with him, and delivers it to Ashara Dayne at Starfall.

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

It took a lot of work to demolish the tower.  Work that could have been better used to show honor and respect to the fallen.  I understand why she has it out for Ned.  He only brought back the stallion because the horse was useful on the way home. 

[Evolett]

On 11/14/2022 at 5:27 PM, Frey family reunion said:

So what was Rhaegar’s motivation?  And how was he going to fulfill it?  We’re told that the one place Rhaegar truly loved was Summerhall.  We’re told that Summerhall was a Targaryen dream of dragons.   Dragons were a necessary component of the fulfillment of the Prince that was Promised prophecy.  How did Rhaegar plan on having this prophecy fulfilled?

I agree Lyanna is a good stand in for the Greek goddess Persephone.  But Rhaegar has never really been a good stand in for her abductor, Hades.  However, the musically inclined Rhaegar would make a good stand in for another character involved in the stories of Persephone and Hades, the Greek bard Orpheus.

It's not often I read something and think: THIS IS IT. Just the other day I was reading up again on the story of Orpheus because of its connection to Rhaegar and wondering how the author may have combined the two stories of releasing a woman from the underworld. The scenario you propose is definitely plausible.

It also raises the awful prospect of Lyanna's baby being the sacrifice required to return the dragons. Though there is no definite proof, I do suspect the unborn Rhaegar was himself the designated sacrifice required to hatch dragons at Summerhall, and that Dunk, though unable to save Rhaella, did save the new born prince from the fires.

 

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@Seams said:

Ned did bring back the red horse and this is really worth trying to understand. 

Speaking of Dunk, saving babies from being sacrificed is then probably the connection between Dunk refusing to accept the red horse from Rohanne Webber and Ned returning Dustin's red stallion to Lady Dustin. Rohanne's red mare is named "Flame". Drogo's red stallion will be sacrificed in the attempt to save his life. Ramsay's red stallion is named "Blood." Note Blood and Flame - blood and fire - all Valyrian sorcery is rooted in blood and fire.

Ned returning the red stallion would symbolize a rejection of the ritual and in this case, since the horse is a stallion ("Flame" is a mare), Dustin's red is most likely a symbol of the Blood componet of the ritual, the fire being the equivalent to Drogo's pyre. Can it be that the Kingsguard meant to set the Tower of Joy alight? Dear me. Ned rescuing baby Jon from such a fate also ties into his determination to save Cersei's children. But even before that Ned says something rather puzzling because it suggests the Mad King himself may have been involved in killing children:

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“Robert, I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?”

 

 

On 11/14/2022 at 5:27 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Perhaps this is why Eddard knew this would be a fight to the death, and why he tore down the tower’s bloody stones.

Another thought on the tower: In addition to the White Bull symbol, Gerold Hightower also represents a tower, the tower of Oldtown with its great beacon of fire at the top. If Dustin's horse represents the blood aspect of the ritual, then the Tower of Joy is the symbolic fire. Ned returning the horse and tearing down the tower of fire to "bury" it then signifies his rejection of the entire ritual. 

[Seams]

6 hours ago, Evolett said:

Speaking of Dunk, saving babies from being sacrificed is then probably the connection between Dunk refusing to accept the red horse from Rohanne Webber and Ned returning Dustin's red stallion to Lady Dustin. Rohanne's red mare is named "Flame". Drogo's red stallion will be sacrificed in the attempt to save his life. Ramsay's red stallion is named "Blood." Note Blood and Flame - blood and fire - all Valyrian sorcery is rooted in blood and fire.

This rings true to me, too. Dany's baby was the Stallion that Mounts the World and he was sacrificed in the Mirri Maaz Duur ritual before the hatching of the dragons. We know there is a link between Marwin and Mirri, and that Marwin rushes off to Essos when Sam confirms that Dany has hatched dragons. The ship that carries him is the Cinnamon Wind - I think ships (perhaps especially those with "wind" names) are the equivalent of horses. 

Maybe Dunk declining the gift horse from Rohanne meant that his blood line would NOT take the throne. Egg accepted a gift horse after Dunk declined the offer from Lady Rohanne, so he is collecting the items necessary to become king / hatch dragons. Lady Rohanne tells Dunk that he can rename the horse "Amends," which is probably wordplay on Aemon or Daemon. 

Rohanne has been sacrificing babies in dark magic rituals for years, but hasn't been able to achieve whatever goal she has in mind. Dunk shows her the ring with the dragon on it and a resolution for all of the conflicts soon follows. 

At the opening of the Sworn Sword story, we are also told that Egg accepted a cask-carrying mule named Maester as a gift from his brother (presumably Aemon). Aemon's body is on the Cinnamon Wind preserved inside a barrel. I bet there's a parallel here, and I bet it has to do with the future of Mance's baby, Aemon Steelsong. (Gilly wanted to name the baby Maester, but Sam said that's not a name. I wonder whether there is wordplay on "Gilly" and "filly"?)

[Evolett]

4 hours ago, Seams said:

Dany's baby was the Stallion that Mounts the World and he was sacrificed in the Mirri Maaz Duur ritual before the hatching of the dragons.

Yes, that's what I was thinking of as well. Drogo's red stallion was sacrificed by Mirri for its blood, the whole thing being a blood ritual with Dany carried into the tent by Jorah while the godswife's ritual was in full swing. 

 

4 hours ago, Seams said:

The ship that carries him is the Cinnamon Wind - I think ships (perhaps especially those with "wind" names) are the equivalent of horses. 

Actually, I think ships and horses are symbolic carriers of souls. The ships especially lend themselves to the interpretation, especially ships driven by sails - by the wind (wind > air > breath > spirit), an element hardly spoken of in asoiaf but just as important as earth, water, fire and ice. Ship names give clues to the actual reborn or ancient souls.

Horses: the heart is the seat of the soul in some cultures. Dany has to go through the horse-heart eating ceremony to "ingest" the "strong soul" of the horse to give her son strength. Not completely eating the heart would have indicated not completely absorbing the symbolic soul. Mirri's incantation, "strength of  the horse, go into the man" is the same concept. And we see the Undying kept together by a large pulsing heart which can only contain the soul of the former wizard. It's the only thing left alive, the undying soul. 

The horses as symbolic soul repositories are more difficult to figure out but the red stallions are a good clue, as is Sandor's horse, Stranger. The words of the Farman's of Fairisle finally convinced me. They are: "the wind our steed." 

The Cinnamon Wind is a reference to the phoenix, I suspect. There is a mythological cinnamon bird said to use the bark of the cinnamon tree for building its nest. In some myths, the cinammon bird and phoenix are the same. The ship itself is from the Summer Isles, a place famous for brightly coloured birds, the feathers of which are worn as cloaks. The phoenix boasts beautiful plummage and of course is famous for being reborn from its own ashes. Thus the ship Cinnamon Wind represents a reborn soul - apt since Daenerys litereally rose from the ashes and met the ship's captain. GRRM is perhaps working backwards with the subtext tale of the journey of the reborn soul. That brings us to the mule Maester and the casks:

4 hours ago, Seams said:

At the opening of the Sworn Sword story, we are also told that Egg accepted a cask-carrying mule named Maester as a gift from his brother (presumably Aemon). Aemon's body is on the Cinnamon Wind preserved inside a barrel. I bet there's a parallel here, and I bet it has to do with the future of Mance's baby, Aemon Steelsong. (Gilly wanted to name the baby Maester, but Sam said that's not a name. I wonder whether there is wordplay on "Gilly" and "filly"?)

Aemon is preserved in a barrel. He dies while the ship is becalmed, there is no wind (symbolic of his soul trapped in the barrel). Aegon's cask is a play on casket, another word for coffin, the parallel to Aemon in the barrel. And the mule must be a play on the slang meaning of mule - basically a smuggler of ilicit goods. It means Aemon and Aegon were born with the same ancestral soul or part of it, from their mother Black Betha, I suspect. Aemon was offered the kingship but he declined and it passed to Aegon which carried forth the elusive soul. (Note - Black Betha was Davos the smuggler's ship. She burned on the Blackwater, representing a symbolic release of the soul by the fire).

Gilly and filly must be a pair. The connection could well be the "flowers." Gilly was named for the Gillyflower. Lyanna was given flowers by Rhaegar and was an excellent rider (and a centaur, as well as a symbolic filly). The flowers came from Rhaegar and we've seen flowers symbolise souls. Bael characters are often associated with flowers, including Baelor the Blessed, the only Targ king who wore a crown of flowers. But the "flowers" have had a hard time passing down through the Targ line. Baelor had no children. Jenny who had flowers in her hair presumably perished with Duncan at Summerhall. The "Bael" Targs usually die before they have offspring. The "flowers" finally get through to Rhaegar and I suspect they complement and come together with the wolfblood (wolf / flow). Rhaegar dies in the river and his blood flow(er)s in it, represented by his red rubies that are like drops of blood.  In Ned's dream, the formerly blue winter roses spill out of her hand, dead and black (black flowers from Black Betha).

Now to baby Aemon and Gilly. I believe Maester Aemon is Craster's father (probably all who believe Craster is a Stark will be up in arms now, but these old souls come from really old blood, from before the time of the Long Night and there is good evidence for Aemon as Craster's father. Black Betha Blackwood is the source of Craster's  "black blood"). When Gilly feeds baby Aemon, she passes that soul on to the baby (the neep entry or rather exit). What this means for baby Aemon's future is somewhat unclear but it's bound to be important. 

[Gilbert Green]

On 11/10/2022 at 3:08 PM, Angel Eyes said:

How hard would it have been to transport six sets of bones (Lyanna plus Ned's companions, minus one Reed)?

Sounds like a smelly task at least.  What you do is you build cairns, or construct a tomb, to protect the bodies.  You retrieve the bones later. 

With Arthur Dayne,  Ned made a journey to deliver Arthur's sword.  Not his sword and his bones.  The bones were not at that point ready for transport.  They were waiting, presumably under a cairn, that Ned built for him.

[Angel Eyes]

5 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Sounds like a smelly task at least.  What you do is you build cairns, or construct a tomb, to protect the bodies.  You retrieve the bones later.

But Ned didn't. Not at any point after the war, he could have done that much out of respect.

[Gilbert Green]

6 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

But Ned didn't. Not at any point after the war, he could have done that much out of respect.

He did (at some point) retrieve Lyanna.

There was a war.  Wars make lots of bodies.  If he committed himself to retrieving everybody, out of respect, he would have a far bigger task than just those six.

The only mystery, if there is a mystery, is Dustin.  He was a Lord, and not only a Lord, but the Lord of Barrowtown.  A "barrow" is an ancient burial site.  Barrowtown sounds like the sort of place where a Lord might have his place, just as Starks have their place in the Crypts of Winterfell.   I would not make much of it, except Lady Dustin seems to underscore the problem by being resentful about the failure to return Dustin's bones.

[Shierak Qiya]

On 11/17/2022 at 9:51 PM, Gilbert Green said:

He did (at some point) retrieve Lyanna.

There was a war.  Wars make lots of bodies.  If he committed himself to retrieving everybody, out of respect, he would have a far bigger task than just those six.

The only mystery, if there is a mystery, is Dustin.  He was a Lord, and not only a Lord, but the Lord of Barrowtown.  A "barrow" is an ancient burial site.  Barrowtown sounds like the sort of place where a Lord might have his place, just as Starks have their place in the Crypts of Winterfell.   I would not make much of it, except Lady Dustin seems to underscore the problem by being resentful about the failure to return Dustin's bones.

The war was already over.  Those companions went with Ned on a personal mission to find his sister.  He owed them.  I can accept leaving Ethan Glover's behind but not Lord Dustin.  Ned was blind to subtle politics.  Any lord worth his salt would have been aware of how Barbrey Dustin was already feeling due to the past. 

[Gilbert Green]

3 hours ago, Shierak Qiya said:

The war was already over.  Those companions went with Ned on a personal mission to find his sister.  He owed them.  I can accept leaving Ethan Glover's behind but not Lord Dustin.  Ned was blind to subtle politics.  Any lord worth his salt would have been aware of how Barbrey Dustin was already feeling due to the past. 

There is a mystery about Lord Dustin, not only because of his status as a Lord, but because of the feelings of his family, and the political implications.  I see no similar argument for Ethan Glover (or the others) and you seem to agree.

Whether it was personal for Ned was beside the point.  The war being supposedly over is beside the point, and in any event, at least 3 enemies remained.  The question is, whether Ned owed a duty to retrieve the bodies of his companions.  Many, many people marched with Ned to the South and failed to return.  The TOJ incident only adds a few more names to a list that must be quite long.  Only with Lord Dustin can any argument can be made that he was entitled to some sort of special treatment.

I don't necessarily agree that Ned was blind to subtle politics.  That negates the mystery, by providing a pat explanation.

 

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

I think we all agree that Ned should have brought Lord Dustin's bones back to his family.  He brought the stallion back because he probably used the horse to carry packs on the trip back home.  The pack were probably the remains of his siblings.  What an insult, right!

The Starks have had their way in the north for so long that they no longer bother to consider the feelings of their vassals.  They no longer think through to gauge how their vassals would react to their decisions.  The Starks have been poor governors the last 20 years.  They dragged the north to war because Rickard could not keep his children under control.  Now, Lord Ned commits treason and the son drags them to war to free a guilty man.  The next book may reveal the existence of a growing discontent in the north. 

[Craving Peaches]

30 minutes ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

The next book may reveal the existence of a growing discontent in the north. 

Yes, a growing discontent with the Boltons.

[Gilbert Green]

1 hour ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

I think we all agree that Ned should have brought Lord Dustin's bones back to his family.  He brought the stallion back because he probably used the horse to carry packs on the trip back home.  The pack were probably the remains of his siblings.  What an insult, right!

The Starks have had their way in the north for so long that they no longer bother to consider the feelings of their vassals.  They no longer think through to gauge how their vassals would react to their decisions.  The Starks have been poor governors the last 20 years.  They dragged the north to war because Rickard could not keep his children under control.  Now, Lord Ned commits treason and the son drags them to war to free a guilty man.  The next book may reveal the existence of a growing discontent in the north. 

If you really think contempt for vassals is consistent with Ned's character, then their is no mystery of the bones.  And if you think contempt for political considerations is a long-time Stark flaw, then the real mystery is why they were still in power at that point.

There was no insult in returning the horse.  I am aware of no tradition of murdering or abandoning horses after the deaths of their owners.  The only insult, if there was one, was the failure to return the bones.  The fantasy that Lyanna's bones were on Dustin's horse is both unsupported and irrelevant.  Ned had other horses, I'm sure, including his own.