Not all changes to Daemon were justified, but overall he's great

[Khloey]

On 11/4/2022 at 1:56 PM, Annara Snow said:

He didn't, not when he first came there. He just kind of went with the flow. It seemed ike he wouldn't have even finished her off if she hadn't taunted him.

Daemon in general isn't the greatest planner out there, he is just chaotic.

I know he's not the greatest planner, but still, there is a reason why he turned up with his hoodie. Everytime he wears it, something shitty happen (Rhea's death, Rhaenyra's nearly lost virginity,  plotting with Qarl).

It meant something to portray him like this, and the result is just weird.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Annara Snow said:

@Lord Varys I'm not going to comment on what's merely yout speculation that the show will do things you think it will do. (also the idea that Mysaria can just kill Aemond or anyone else she might want s silly.)

Mysaria tells Otto point blank that she could and can murder Aegon in episode 9. She can murder anyone she wants, apparently, although Aemond would be somewhat more difficult (but she could poison him rather than have him slain).

1 minute ago, Annara Snow said:

Anyway, I can't believe I almost forgot. but why are we assuming Rhaenys has the power to betroth Baela and Rhaena to anyone against Daemon's will? As their father, he would definitely have the most authority to make those decisions.

Baela she could betroth/marry off obviously, since she has been living with her for six years.

In context, it also pretty silly to think that Baela/Rhaena and Rhaenyra's boys (as well as the Greens and King Viserys) would all be fine with the rumor and belief that Rhaenyra/Daemon murdered Laenor so they can be together. Why exactly those people should be with them, support them, defend them when they believe they just murder a member of their inbred family is beyond me ... and beyond reason, I'd say.

This is the same as Criston not being punished for Joffrey's muder ... only very much dialed up since Laenor Velaryon is himself royalty, a husband to royalty, and the legal father of royalty.

There is just no chance that Rhaenys/Corlys or any other of their family members would ignore this.

[Annara Snow]

@Lord VarysShe could murder Aegon because Aegon is always escaping his Kingsguard sworn shield and going by his own into Flea Bottom. (He also probably isn't that great of a fighter, since he  drinks and sleeps around most of the time rather than training.) 
If Aegon stops doing that and is surrounded by Kingsguard, as a king should, she certainly couldn't just go and murder him.

If she could just kill anyone, she would be able to finish the war or decide its outcome, but there's no way she is that powerful.

Aemond doesn't even go to brothels or to watch fights, and he'd be much harder to kill even if he was by himself.

And as for poisoning, if that were so easy it would be happening much more often. There's a reason why royals had people testing the food and drink for them.

If Mysaria or anyone were to send someone to the palace to try to kill Aegon or Aemond or anyone and fail, that would alert the Greens and make them up their security , including probably looking for any possible secret passages into the castle,  and certainly making sure that every member of the royal family, certainly including the queen consort and the king's children, ae surrounded by Kingsguard at all times, which would make Blood and Cheese impossible.

[Lord Varys]

13 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

@Lord VarysShe could murder Aegon because Aegon is always escaping his Kingsguard sworn shield and going by his own into Flea Bottom. (He also probably isn't that great of a fighter, since he  drinks and sleeps around most of the time rather than training.) 
If Aegon stops doing that and is surrounded by Kingsguard, as a king should, she certainly couldn't just go and murder him.

Depends on what means she would use to murder him. I mean, you know the history of the Dance and that Kingsguard can be killed, too, right?

We also don't know how thorough Mysaria's nets of loyal informers and spies it. Perhaps one of the Kingsguard is also on her payroll? Larys admitted he only knew of some of Mysaria's agents. But in any case, to murder Aemond or Aegon II all Mysaria would need is a member of the royal household that has access to them. Which should be scores of people.

13 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

If she could just kill anyone, she would be able to finish the war or decide its outcome, but there's no way she is that powerful.

One assumes that she will be content getting her vengeance. I mean, for some reason Daemon/Rhaenyra also stop using assassination to get rid of their rivals after Blood and Cheese despite the fact that the operation was pretty successful. And even after the Greens sent Arryk Cargyll to murder folks at Dragonstone, the Blacks didn't retaliate by another assassination attempt of their own.

13 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

If Mysaria or anyone were to send someone to the palace to try to kill Aegon or Aemond or anyone and fail, that would alert the Greens and make them up their security , including probably looking for any possible secret passages into the castle,  and certainly making sure that every member of the royal family, certainly including the queen consort and the king's children, ae surrounded by Kingsguard at all times, which would make Blood and Cheese impossible.

The Greens should already be alert after Luke's murder ... and did nothing to specifically protect Alicent, Helaena, or the children. Just as the Blacks were stupid enough to not foresee a potential Cargyll impersonation ... which is an obvious ploy and something they should have expected after Blood and Cheese.

In the show, there is also no reason to believe Aegon himself or Aemond couldn't be targeted in their respective bedchambers since Rhaenyra's bedchamber is connected to the secret tunnel system ... and as the king's daughter she should have resided in Maegor's Holdfast.

So we cannot really claim that Aegon or Aemond would be safe from assassination attempts in the show.

[Magnar, P.I.]

On 11/6/2022 at 6:11 PM, Annara Snow said:

@Lord Varys

And as for poisoning, if that were so easy it would be happening much more often. There's a reason why royals had people testing the food and drink for them.

Lol people get poisoned left and right in the books and show. Off the top of my head Jon Arryn, Joffrey, Olenna, the Mountain, Melisandre, Aegon II, Ulf the White, and a whole pack of Ironborn at Moat Cailin are explicitly poisoned. Two of those guys were kings at the time they were poisoned, another was Hand, another was the ruling lady of her house. Septon Moon would have been poisoned if he hadn't gotten the Lorena Bobbit treatment. It seems Tywin had been poisoned before Tyrion shit-shot him, and Jon seems to have been at least drugged before getting For-The-Watched. Androw Farman himself took out a whole slew of people with the same poison, by himself and one after another, and all he had to do to delay suspicion was kill the maester early on. That fact, along with Maester Cressen's attempt to poison Mel, raises suspicions of poisoning over a number of other deaths, including Viserys' dad Balon, Jaehaerys' daughter Daenarys, and all the Targs who died "in the Spring."

And again that's just off the top of my head, I'm guessing I forgot more than a few between all of the books and both shows, especially since I didn't bother to look anything up. The point is- people be getting poisoned. Furthermore poisoning is explicitly stated to be a "woman's weapon" (in the books if not both) so when Mysaria reaches her full power level as Mistress of Whisperers I wouldn't be surprised to find this in her arsenal.

[Lord Varys]

12 hours ago, Magnar, P.I. said:

That fact, along with Maester Cressen's attempt to poison Mel, raises suspicions of poisoning over a number of other deaths, including Viserys' dad Balon, Jaehaerys' daughter Daenarys, and all the Targs who died "in the Spring."

I think for all the ones you mention there poison is somewhat unlikely. Baelon (in the book) clearly died of a burst appendix, and Daenerys succumbed to the Shivers. It would be difficult to create those impressions with poison.

About Daeron II, Valarr, and Matarys we know too little at this point, but the Great Spring Sickness is the best suspect.

Poison may be queen in the death of King Aenys (at the behest/hands of Visenya), King Viserys II (at the behest of Aegon IV) and, perhaps, Jaehaerys II. TWoIaF describes his death scene and it seems quite sudden. It could be him just catching a respiratory illness he succumbed to rather quickly ... but considering his general bad health and his many afflictions he would be the kind of person a gentle or not-so-gentle poison appearing like a sudden illness could do the trick without raising any suspicion.

Especially if Grand Maester Pycelle was in on it.

I guess Prince Rhaegel - who allegedly choked to death on some food - could also have been poisoned. The poison of choice there could have been the Strangler. That could make sense if Bloodraven wanted to be rid of this embarrassingly mad heir to the throne to make room for saner Aelor and Aelora. But aside from that one imagines nobody would have had a motive to murder Rhaegel.

[Annara Snow]

On 12/29/2022 at 2:42 AM, Magnar, P.I. said:

Lol people get poisoned left and right in the books and show. Off the top of my head Jon Arryn, Joffrey, Olenna, the Mountain, Melisandre, Aegon II, Ulf the White, and a whole pack of Ironborn at Moat Cailin are explicitly poisoned. Two of those guys were kings at the time they were poisoned, another was Hand, another was the ruling lady of her house. Septon Moon would have been poisoned if he hadn't gotten the Lorena Bobbit treatment. It seems Tywin had been poisoned before Tyrion shit-shot him, and Jon seems to have been at least drugged before getting For-The-Watched. Androw Farman himself took out a whole slew of people with the same poison, by himself and one after another, and all he had to do to delay suspicion was kill the maester early on. That fact, along with Maester Cressen's attempt to poison Mel, raises suspicions of poisoning over a number of other deaths, including Viserys' dad Balon, Jaehaerys' daughter Daenarys, and all the Targs who died "in the Spring."

And again that's just off the top of my head, I'm guessing I forgot more than a few between all of the books and both shows, especially since I didn't bother to look anything up. The point is- people be getting poisoned. Furthermore poisoning is explicitly stated to be a "woman's weapon" (in the books if not both) so when Mysaria reaches her full power level as Mistress of Whisperers I wouldn't be surprised to find this in her arsenal.

"Lol people get poisoned left and right in the books and show. Off the top of my head Jon Arryn, Joffrey, Olenna, the Mountain, Melisandre, Aegon II, Ulf the White, and a whole pack of Ironborn at Moat Cailin are explicitly poisoned."
|

What does the show have to do with anything? Olenna and Melisandre are perfectly fine in the books. Tywin being poisoned is just a theory (not a very good one, IMO. It would really reduce the impact of Tyrion's murder of  Tywin if Tywin was already dying). 

Yes, Aegon II, Ulf, Jon Arryn, Joffrey and the Mountain got poisoned (and the Mountain sure did not have a taster and also was poisoned in a fight...), so that's... 5 people over the course of 200 years?

Now you've convinced me that Mysaria could have just gone and poisoned a bunch of people! Because that just happens every day!

[Magnar, P.I.]

On 12/30/2022 at 2:26 PM, Annara Snow said:

What does the show have to do with anything? Olenna and Melisandre are perfectly fine in the books.

Well the showrunners seem to have been given a bunch of info by GRRM so I don't know why we would completely discount it as definitely not having to do anything. And yes, Melisandre is fine in the books but Cressen did attempt to poison her.

On 12/30/2022 at 2:26 PM, Annara Snow said:

Now you've convinced me that Mysaria could have just gone and poisoned a bunch of people! Because that just happens every day!

lol how many poisonings do you need? And that was literally just off the top of my head, Lord Varys just added some strong possibilities to the list. And Mysaria in particular would have had awesome access as Mistress of Whispers. No, it's super clear that lots of people get poisoned, even more are suspected by characters in the story of having been poisoned, and even more on top of that are written in a way that encourages readers to think maybe they were poisoned... but ok, I guess poisoning is suddenly super hard and unlikely in this one specific instance

On 12/29/2022 at 6:07 AM, Lord Varys said:

I think for all the ones you mention there poison is somewhat unlikely. Baelon (in the book) clearly died of a burst appendix, and Daenerys succumbed to the Shivers. It would be difficult to create those impressions with poison.

Dr. Google says that infection, blockage and pressure buildup can cause the appendix to burst. That 1000% sounds like some of the poisons already introduced to the story, particularly the Strangler. So I'm going to keep that one in the "highly suspicious" category, thank you!

[Annara Snow]

5 hours ago, Magnar, P.I. said:

Well the showrunners seem to have been given a bunch of info by GRRM so I don't know why we would completely discount it as definitely not having to do anything. And yes, Melisandre is fine in the books but Cressen did attempt to poison her.

lol how many poisonings do you need? And that was literally just off the top of my head, Lord Varys just added some strong possibilities to the list. And Mysaria in particular would have had awesome access as Mistress of Whispers. No, it's super clear that lots of people get poisoned, even more are suspected by characters in the story of having been poisoned, and even more on top of that are written in a way that encourages readers to think maybe they were poisoned... but ok, I guess poisoning is suddenly super hard and unlikely in this one specific instance

Dr. Google says that infection, blockage and pressure buildup can cause the appendix to burst. That 1000% sounds like some of the poisons already introduced to the story, particularly the Strangler. So I'm going to keep that one in the "highly suspicious" category, thank you!

Lots of people are no doubt victims od attempted poisoning. That's why prominent figures such as royals presumably normally have people who taste their food and drijks first, as their official job,  as it was the case in real kife, which would make said poisonings much less likely. And also reduce the likelihood of attempts, because why would you just poison a food taster and get your target alerted that someone wants to kill them?

 

As for ;Balon, by that logic you could just decide that any death of a burst appendix and other similar completely natural health risks were actually secret poisonings...even though there's zero indication of that.

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, Magnar, P.I. said:

Well the showrunners seem to have been given a bunch of info by GRRM so I don't know why we would completely discount it as definitely not having to do anything. And yes, Melisandre is fine in the books but Cressen did attempt to poison her.

lol how many poisonings do you need? And that was literally just off the top of my head, Lord Varys just added some strong possibilities to the list. And Mysaria in particular would have had awesome access as Mistress of Whispers. No, it's super clear that lots of people get poisoned, even more are suspected by characters in the story of having been poisoned, and even more on top of that are written in a way that encourages readers to think maybe they were poisoned... but ok, I guess poisoning is suddenly super hard and unlikely in this one specific instance

Mysaria - especially as portrayed in the show - has immediate access to everyone in the Red Keep, so for her poisonings are very easy indeed. A person who has access to every chamber in the Red Keep can effectively poison people in their sleep - or by poisoning their private stashes of food and, especially, drink they might store in their bedrooms or adjacent chambers. But this wouldn't even be necessary - if assassins can sneak into bedchambers and the like they can dribble poison into your mouth while you sleep - or force some deadly poison down your throat before you can fight back.

The fact that Aegon II is poisoned in the end also is more than proof enough that he was not effectively shielded against poisoning attempts.

7 hours ago, Magnar, P.I. said:

Dr. Google says that infection, blockage and pressure buildup can cause the appendix to burst. That 1000% sounds like some of the poisons already introduced to the story, particularly the Strangler. So I'm going to keep that one in the "highly suspicious" category, thank you!

The Strangler makes it look like you choked to death - which is why Prince Rhaegel may have been poisoned that way. Problem, though, in Baelon's case is that we have neither suspects nor motivation to kill him. And a burst appendix is something that actually can happen naturally.

2 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Lots of people are no doubt victims od attempted poisoning. That's why prominent figures such as royals presumably normally have people who taste their food and drijks first, as their official job,  as it was the case in real kife, which would make said poisonings much less likely. And also reduce the likelihood of attempts, because why would you just poison a food taster and get your target alerted that someone wants to kill them?

Food tasters are only effective with poisons that take effect immediately or shortly after they have been consumed. The king eats the food prepared for him on that day and not on the next. So something as easy as a poisoning with death caps would go through because there the first symptons are only felt hours after the mushrooms were eaten.

[Magnar, P.I.]

On 3/17/2023 at 7:15 AM, Annara Snow said:

Well but the only indication we have either way is a biased Maester, centuries later. Meanwhile we’ve seen Maesters poison people and do cover ups in the main story already, with insider testimony that such conspiracies go back centuries. I think a certain amount of skepticism is healthy here.

[Magnar, P.I.]

On 3/17/2023 at 9:36 AM, Lord Varys said:

The Strangler makes it look like you choked to death - which is why Prince Rhaegel may have been poisoned that way. Problem, though, in Baelon's case is that we have neither suspects nor motivation to kill him. And a burst appendix is something that actually can happen naturally.

Well, not quite. In HOTD Viserys points out that Otto was the primary benefactor of Baelon’s death. He immediately became Hand, and Baelon’s more tractable and less-competent son became the (presumptive) new heir of the Old King. Otto was already at court, so the Hightowers could have been scheming to get close to the crown at this point. Viserys stops short of accusing Otto of having anything to do with the death (and it is the show, not the books) but regardless, that is certainly a plausible motivation for murder

[Magnar, P.I.]

Re-listening to chapter 2 of Fire and Blood and apparently all of Lord Mertyn’s household was killed by a single cask of wine during the first Dornish War. Yep, poisoning sure is difficult and rare in this story…

[Annara Snow]

9 hours ago, Magnar, P.I. said:

Well, not quite. In HOTD Viserys points out that Otto was the primary benefactor of Baelon’s death. He immediately became Hand, and Baelon’s more tractable and less-competent son became the (presumptive) new heir of the Old King. Otto was already at court, so the Hightowers could have been scheming to get close to the crown at this point. Viserys stops short of accusing Otto of having anything to do with the death (and it is the show, not the books) but regardless, that is certainly a plausible motivation for murder

If Viserys actually believed that, why did he keep Otto as Hand for so many years up to the point he got annoyed with him for spying on his daughter and reporting something about her that Viserys really didn't like to hear (but believed to be true, going by the fact he sent her moon tea), and re-installed him later again?

It makes no sense. Unless Viserys was simply looking for an accusation to throw at Otto that would sound legitimate, maybe even trying to justify himself in his mind for sacking him for a pretty questionable and weak reason. Which is exactly how that scene came off.

[Annara Snow]

5 hours ago, Magnar, P.I. said:

Re-listening to chapter 2 of Fire and Blood and apparently all of Lord Mertyn’s household was killed by a single cask of wine during the first Dornish War. Yep, poisoning sure is difficult and rare in this story…

It's difficult to poison anyone of high station who's not an idiot and has drink and food tasters, as people of high station did.

If poisonings were that easy you seem to think they are, the actual questions you should ask yourself are: 1) why didn't many more royals and nobles get poisoned? Why didn't anyone poison Maegor, Aegon the Unworthy, Harren the Black, Tywin for all those years, Aarys II, Roose Bolton, Ramsay Bolton, Balon Greyjoy (easier than to hire a Faceless Man, right?), Cersei (fatally, not like Tyrion did to just put her out of commission for a while, and that only worked because they had a rare moment where they got along and she wasn't on her guard), Renly (easier than a shadow baby for sure? Right?), Stannis, Euron, Robb (why bother doing the Red Wedding if you can just poison him, easiest thing in the world, right?) and so on... Why isn't everyone getting poisoned left and right?!

and

2) how come with poisonings being so 'common', everyone is still so stupid that they aren't doing the necessary precautions and no one is, according to you it seems, using food and drink tasters?

Oh and another question... Who the heck did Mysaria poison??? IIRC the only persons who got poisoned were Ulf (and that was definitely not her and was far away from where she even was) and Aegon II (after her death). Which important figures during the Dance died a seemingly natural death that could've been poison? You can't just say "Mysaria will be super powerful poisoners poisoning whoever she wants!" without giving any examples. She didn't even poison a 6 year old, she sent two assassins after him.

[Annara Snow]

10 hours ago, Magnar, P.I. said:

Well but the only indication we have either way is a biased Maester, centuries later. Meanwhile we’ve seen Maesters poison people and do cover ups in the main story already, with insider testimony that such conspiracies go back centuries. I think a certain amount of skepticism is healthy here.

I don't know what you were quoting there so I have no idea what specific event you were referring to. But everything in Fire & Blood comes from biased maesters, biased septons, biased court jesters etc. and is filtered through the lens of another maester writing centuries later, so technically I guess we can't be sure of anything.

As for maesters poisoning people in the main story, you will have to remind me, because I don't remember any maesters doing any poisonings (Pycelle did do a cover-up of one because he had the wrong idea about how the perpetrators was) but we did actually see multiple highborn ladies and highborn lords plan and perform poisonings, and some of them frame others fot it. Lysa and Littlefinger, Tyrion (non-fatally), Olenna presumably with some other Tyrells and Littlefinger again, Oberyn, Littlefinger again, whoever was iti n Meereen... and we've also seen a trader try to poison Dany. So by this token, nobles and traders are even less trustworthy than maesters.

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, Magnar, P.I. said:

Well, not quite. In HOTD Viserys points out that Otto was the primary benefactor of Baelon’s death. He immediately became Hand, and Baelon’s more tractable and less-competent son became the (presumptive) new heir of the Old King. Otto was already at court, so the Hightowers could have been scheming to get close to the crown at this point. Viserys stops short of accusing Otto of having anything to do with the death (and it is the show, not the books) but regardless, that is certainly a plausible motivation for murder

That is show only. Not only is it wrong that Baelon was Hand for only a couple of days, he did in fact serve for about a year or so, being named Hand in 100 AC and dying in 101 AC. Otto Hightower was also not at court at that time. Jaehaerys I specifically called him to court from Oldtown to make him Hand and that happened only after the Great Council. Otto was not a courtier already on the council to whom the Handship was the next step in his career. He was an outsider the king himself brought in.

If we want to speculate what caused Jaehaerys I to offer the Handship to Otto there are two important people Otto might have had connections. First there is Archmaester Vaegon who Otto might have befriended back in Oldtown. There is no indication that Otto Hightower ever wanted to be a maester (unlikely Lyonel Strong) but as a the son and eventually the brother of the Lord of Oldtown with scholarly inclinations he may have established close ties with the archmaesters of the Citadel - and one imagines that the Hightowers (who fund and protect the Citadel) have the maesters and archmaesters give their family members private lessons, etc. if they feel like it. We know that Vaegon advises his father in the wake of Baelon's death, so it might be Vaegon suggested Otto for the Handship.

The other candidate to bring Otto Hightower to the attention of Jaehaerys I could have been Lyman Beesbury. He was already Master of Coin at that time, and his house is sworn to Oldtown so he would have intimate knowledge about the Hightowers. It is also not unlikely that Beesbury was related to Otto - a daughter of his could have been Alicent's mother or, perhaps more likely, the wife of Otto's elder brother. Also, of course, Beesbury himself could have been married to a sister or aunt or cousin of Otto's.

2 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Oh and another question... Who the heck did Mysaria poison??? IIRC the only persons who got poisoned were Ulf (and that was definitely not her and was far away from where she even was) and Aegon II (after her death). Which important figures during the Dance died a seemingly natural death that could've been poison? You can't just say "Mysaria will be super powerful poisoners poisoning whoever she wants!" without giving any examples. She didn't even poison a 6 year old, she sent two assassins after him.

We talk poisons here because you insisted that Mysaria could not possibly have poisoned Aegon II or any other members of the royal family which is why Blood and Cheese is something they had to resort to. My take was and remains that Mysaria will use Blood and Cheese specifically to target Alicent, Helaena, and the children to make them hurt for what they did to her when Alicent burned her manse.

[Annara Snow]

On 3/25/2023 at 6:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

That is show only. Not only is it wrong that Baelon was Hand for only a couple of days, he did in fact serve for about a year or so, being named Hand in 100 AC and dying in 101 AC. Otto Hightower was also not at court at that time. Jaehaerys I specifically called him to court from Oldtown to make him Hand and that happened only after the Great Council. Otto was not a courtier already on the council to whom the Handship was the next step in his career. He was an outsider the king himself brought in.

If we want to speculate what caused Jaehaerys I to offer the Handship to Otto there are two important people Otto might have had connections. First there is Archmaester Vaegon who Otto might have befriended back in Oldtown. There is no indication that Otto Hightower ever wanted to be a maester (unlikely Lyonel Strong) but as a the son and eventually the brother of the Lord of Oldtown with scholarly inclinations he may have established close ties with the archmaesters of the Citadel - and one imagines that the Hightowers (who fund and protect the Citadel) have the maesters and archmaesters give their family members private lessons, etc. if they feel like it. We know that Vaegon advises his father in the wake of Baelon's death, so it might be Vaegon suggested Otto for the Handship.

The other candidate to bring Otto Hightower to the attention of Jaehaerys I could have been Lyman Beesbury. He was already Master of Coin at that time, and his house is sworn to Oldtown so he would have intimate knowledge about the Hightowers. It is also not unlikely that Beesbury was related to Otto - a daughter of his could have been Alicent's mother or, perhaps more likely, the wife of Otto's elder brother. Also, of course, Beesbury himself could have been married to a sister or aunt or cousin of Otto's.

We talk poisons here because you insisted that Mysaria could not possibly have poisoned Aegon II or any other members of the royal family which is why Blood and Cheese is something they had to resort to. My take was and remains that Mysaria will use Blood and Cheese specifically to target Alicent, Helaena, and the children to make them hurt for what they did to her when Alicent burned her manse.

And that still stands since you've provided no evidence that Mysaria could poison whoever she wanted, and no explanation why she isn't doing that if she supposedly could.

[Magnar, P.I.]

On 3/27/2023 at 8:54 AM, Annara Snow said:

And that still stands since you've provided no evidence that Mysaria could poison whoever she wanted, and no explanation why she isn't doing that if she supposedly could.

Not sure what thread you’ve been reading but ok. 

On 3/25/2023 at 7:24 AM, Annara Snow said:

As for maesters poisoning people in the main story, you will have to remind me, because I don't remember any maesters doing any poisonings...

…

…and we've also seen a trader try to poison Dany. So by this token, nobles and traders are even less trustworthy than maesters.

Cressen attempted to poison Melisandre. We’re meant to believe it didn’t work because she’s magic or whatever (or maybe he got ratted out when he fell asleep) but he had poison on him and tried to murder her with it, either way it’s extenuating circumstances- most targets aren’t magical and most assassins don’t fall asleep mid-hit. Pycelle doesn’t just cover up a poisoning, he personally has a fat stash of highly deadly poisons. Maester Colemon overdoses Sweetrobin on sweet sleep when Petyr tells him to. Oberyn studied extensively at the Citadel and went on to poison The Mountain and probably Tywin and old Lord Yronwood too. And I’m sure I could give you more examples if I were to look it up. Nobles and traders are a huge mixed bag, but for Maesters poison seems to be a standard tool of the trade.

On 3/25/2023 at 7:15 AM, Annara Snow said:If poisonings were that easy you seem to think they are, the actual questions you should ask yourself are: 1) why didn't many more royals and nobles get poisoned? Why didn't anyone poison Maegor, Aegon the Unworthy, Harren the Black, Tywin for all those years, Aarys II, Roose Bolton, Ramsay Bolton, Balon Greyjoy (easier than to hire a Faceless Man, right?), Cersei (fatally, not like Tyrion did to just put her out of commission for a while, and that only worked because they had a rare moment where they got along and she wasn't on her guard), Renly (easier than a shadow baby for sure? Right?), Stannis, Euron, Robb (why bother doing the Red Wedding if you can just poison him, easiest thing in the world, right?) and so on... Why isn't everyone getting poisoned left and right?!

 

To your point, ok, I guess it is too far to say that poisoning is straight up easy- it does require significant resources and education/training to even acquire the poisons, let alone the more subtle ones. It also requires a high level of access to the nobles being targeted. Arguments can be made for why all of those people you mention didn’t fall to poison, or were killed in a specific way for a specific reason. Harren was hated by many but not necessarily by the people in his court. Aegon the Unworthy we don’t know much about but the main thing we hear people take issue with was his deathbed decree. Maegor may not have been poisoned but his wives likely were. Robb- the Red Wedding wasn’t just to kill him but rout his army and make a public statement of loyalty to the crown. Whatever invisible thing that killed Renly could just have easily poisoned him, but stabbing him through the throat with an invisible blade sewed confusion in his ranks. Plus lots of people explicitly don’t use poison because it’s seen as dishonorable- scornfully called a “woman’s weapon” by knights who consider disemboweling someone with a sword the height of honor.

Mysaria on the other hand certainly has knowledge, resources and incredible access as Mistress of Whispers. I really don’t see how you find it so ridiculous that she could have pulled off any number of poisonings. If that turd Androw Farman can kill half the women on Fair Isle I think Misery can manage a few

[Annara Snow]

6 hours ago, Magnar, P.I. said:

Not sure what thread you’ve been reading but ok. 

Cressen attempted to poison Melisandre. We’re meant to believe it didn’t work because she’s magic or whatever (or maybe he got ratted out when he fell asleep) but he had poison on him and tried to murder her with it, either way it’s extenuating circumstances- most targets aren’t magical and most assassins don’t fall asleep mid-hit. Pycelle doesn’t just cover up a poisoning, he personally has a fat stash of highly deadly poisons. Maester Colemon overdoses Sweetrobin on sweet sleep when Petyr tells him to. Oberyn studied extensively at the Citadel and went on to poison The Mountain and probably Tywin and old Lord Yronwood too. And I’m sure I could give you more examples if I were to look it up. Nobles and traders are a huge mixed bag, but for Maesters poison seems to be a standard tool of the trade.

To your point, ok, I guess it is too far to say that poisoning is straight up easy- it does require significant resources and education/training to even acquire the poisons, let alone the more subtle ones. It also requires a high level of access to the nobles being targeted. Arguments can be made for why all of those people you mention didn’t fall to poison, or were killed in a specific way for a specific reason. Harren was hated by many but not necessarily by the people in his court. Aegon the Unworthy we don’t know much about but the main thing we hear people take issue with was his deathbed decree. Maegor may not have been poisoned but his wives likely were. Robb- the Red Wedding wasn’t just to kill him but rout his army and make a public statement of loyalty to the crown. Whatever invisible thing that killed Renly could just have easily poisoned him, but stabbing him through the throat with an invisible blade sewed confusion in his ranks. Plus lots of people explicitly don’t use poison because it’s seen as dishonorable- scornfully called a “woman’s weapon” by knights who consider disemboweling someone with a sword the height of honor.

Mysaria on the other hand certainly has knowledge, resources and incredible access as Mistress of Whispers. I really don’t see how you find it so ridiculous that she could have pulled off any number of poisonings. If that turd Androw Farman can kill half the women on Fair Isle I think Misery can manage a few

So, your argument is that the fact Melisandre - someone who can't be poisoned, and also seems to have known Cressen would try to poison her, like she knew Davos would try to kill her - didn't use a food and drink taster, it means no one does?

Sweetrobin is a child who's under Littlefinger's power, I doubt that his lack of precaution is reflective of all the afult lords, and whether Maegor's wives were poisoned is debatable (but even there the accused was another wife, not an outsider). 

I'm sorry but "most people will not try to poison someone because it's dishonorable and that's why nobles in Westeros don't protect themselves against poisonings like real life ones did" os one of the silliest arguments I've seen.

Speaking of Maegor, i's not considered honorable to kill the king you're sworn to protect either, but I'm pretty sure that's what really happened. 

In this context, if Daemon is dishonorable enough to ask Mysaria to have a 6 year old killed, you're not seriously arguing he's too honorable to ask Mysaria ti poison Aemond or Aegon?