Bran will Judge and Forgive Jaime

[chrisdaw]

I made this topic 8 years ago but I can improve upon it.

Bran's and Jaime's arc are on a collision course which will see Bran judge and basically forgive Jaime for pushing him off a tower ledge and crippling him.

 

Jaime

Part of Jaime's arc is concerned with judgement and particularly comes at it from the angle of don't judge someone from the outside looking in, that is without all the information. Jaime is set on a course in which he will be judged for his past actions.

He intends to come clean about being Tommen's and Myrcella's father, perhaps to the whole world but at least to particularly interested parties.

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He thought of Myrcella. I would need to tell her too. The Dornishman might not like that. Doran Martell had betrothed her to his son in the belief that she was Robert's blood.

With regards to his murder of Aerys Jaime asks this of Brienne.

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By what right does the wolf judge the lion? By what right?

As he saw Ned's eyes full of judgement and it's clearly a painful memory for him.

On this score however there are two characters on the way, dragons, who very much do deserve an explanation for why he murdered their father/grandfather and perhaps have the right to judge him - Aegon (well not really if he's fake) and Dany.

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"I dreamed about the queen," he said. "I was on my knees before her, swearing my allegiance, but she mistook me for my brother, Jaime, and fed me to her dragons."

"Let us hope this dream was not prophetic.

but the detail of that is for another topic, the point here is that Jaime is headed for judgements.

What Jaime did to Bran was not without reason. Jaime says himself why he did it,

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I'm not ashamed of loving you, only of the things I've done to hide it.

and in this case the wolf has every right to judge the lion.

 

Bran

Bran begins with an immature view of love.

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"Some books. I like the fighting stories. My sister Sansa likes the kissing stories, but those are stupid."

but he's met Meera and feelings have blossomed, on his side.

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he wondered what Meera would think if he should suddenly tell her that he loved her.

Bran's feelings for Meera will deepen and he will develop an understanding of romantic love. He is already using Hodor's body to spend time with Meera, and his (mis)use of magic to stay close to Meera will continue and worsen.

Bran's magical abilities will allow him to learn more of love from other characters and times, and in particular things people did for love. Bran will look through the past and learn about;

• How his aunt and crown prince Rhaegar ran off and started a war that ended a dynasty.
• How his mentor Bloodraven and his brother became bitter enemies and fought a war because they both loved their sister.
• Bran's love of knights will likely see him follow Ser Duncan, his pashing with a Winterfell woman (Old Nan) and his other exploits will likely teach Bran much of life.

As Bran develops great power he will have to come to terms with great . . . responsibility. He'll have to take responsibility for helping order the defence of the real of men, lest everyone die. A natural leader and military commander Jaime is going to be a vital potential asset to the realm of which there will be few come the Long Night few.

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If Cersei can be put aside, Ser Kevan may agree to serve as Tommen's Hand. And if not, well, the Seven Kingdoms did not lack for able men. Forley Prester would make a good choice, or Roland Crakehall. If someone other than a westerman was needed to appease the Tyrells, there was always Mathis Rowan . . . or even Petyr Baelish. Littlefinger was as amiable as he was clever, but too lowborn to threaten any of the great lords, with no swords of his own. The perfect Hand.

Even if these people were Jaime's measure, which by the end basically no-one will be, they're all going to die in the Dance or by Greyscale and all the other catastrophes that will befall the realm before even the Long Night. The point is Jaime is going to have to pick up responsibility no the ground because there'll be no-one else.

 

Judgement

Bran is destined to sit in judgement of Jaime. When he does he will recall his father's words.

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"He does," his father admitted. "As did the Targaryen kings before him. Yet our way is the older way. The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.

"One day, Bran, you will be Robb's bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will fall to you. When that day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away. A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is."

Bran will look through Jaime's eyes and recall his words, words suppressed in deep in Bran's consciousness but he continually recalls.

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The man looked over at the woman. "The things I do for love," he said with loathing. He gave Bran a shove.

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A face swam up at him out of the grey mist, shining with light, golden. "The things I do for love," it said.

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"Help me!" he cried. A golden man appeared in the sky above him and pulled him up. "The things I do for love," he murmured softly, as he tossed him out kicking into empty air.

Bran will understand what Jaime meant, he will understand what he saw, the implications and stakes, and understand why Jaime did it.

Bran will recall Lyanna, Rhaegar, Brynden and Shiera. He will consider what others have done for love, and most of all he'll think of Meera, what Bran himself has done for love or might have done.

Bran will consider the state of the realm, the need for its defence and Jaime's abilities. When the ice zombie apocalypse is at hand the man who keeps showing up in visions armoured like the sun is not one to do away with lightly.

Bran will look into Jaime's eyes, consider all that, and find he can not bear to put him to death. Bran will forgive Jaime, and free him to continue to serve the realm.

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"I was eight when my father sent me to foster at the Eyrie," Ned said. "Ser Rodrik tells me there is bad feeling between Robb and Prince Joffrey. That is not healthy. Bran can bridge that distance. He is a sweet boy, quick to laugh, easy to love. Let him grow up with the young princes, let him become their friend as Robert became mine. Our House will be the safer for it."

He was right; Catelyn knew it. It did not make the pain any easier to bear. She would lose all four of them, then: Ned, and both girls, and her sweet, loving Bran.

 

It is through Bran's sweet loving nature that he will bridge the distances between houses. He is to forgive the worst of trespasses against him in service of a greater good.

 

Theorising Specifics

Spoiler chapter stuff included here.

Spoiler

Stannis will have Theon dragged before the Weirwood Tree. Bran will (probably unintentionally) magically intervene through Ravens, the tree, or some other way. People, particularly the Northerners will take Brans intervention as the will of the Old Gods to spare Theon. It will begin a tradition of bringing the accused before Weirwoods, and of Bran judging them. This is probably what was done historically in the North, as who better to judge an accused than all seeing Greenseers, they would be able to find the truth in many matters by which regular means couldn't. Probably this is what's happening in Bran's time traveling visions of the prisoner being brought before the tree.

Jon will war on the south, and win. Jaime will be on the other side defending the south. The North will take Jaime prisoner and he'll be dragged before a weirwood for judgement, and Bran will forgive him, the northmen will be incredulous. Jaime will then go on to perform epic vital realm saving feat(s), most likely necessary evil deeds as is his specialty.

 

[Ibbison from Ibben]

With all due respect, I disagree. I see this issue more in terms of Bran's sense of honor, which he learned from his father.

After Bran saw J & C having sex ( I deliberately did not use the term making love since I'm not sure it fits), he slipped from his perch. Jaime caught him, thus saving his life/health. Jaime didn't need to do that; it was not in his interest to do so. Bran understands that he owes Jaime a debt. If J & C had demanded Bran swear an oath of silence over what he saw, Bran would have undoubtedly complied as a matter of honor. Instead, Jaime chose to collect the debt by attempting to kill Bran. From an honor viewpoint, Jaime was within his rights to  end the life he had saved (from Bran's viewpoint.)

Bran survived. The end result is that, since Jaime saved Bran's life then attempted to take it, Bran owes Jaime nothing. They are even. Bran will treat this as a wash, and if called upon to judge Jaime, will base his judgement on Jaime's other actions.

[BlackLightning]

1 hour ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

From an honor viewpoint, Jaime was within his rights to end the life he had saved (from Bran's viewpoint.

This is wrong.

Because you're conveniently forgetting that Jaime was committing both a crime and a sin. He has no right to invoke his honor and that of Cersei when they are committing an act of high treason. Spitefully I might add.

He's also violating guest right by harming the child of his host (a most gracious one, in fact) 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

Bran is not going to forgive Jaime.  Revenge, not forgiveness, is the way of the Starks.  Forgiveness is boring and lack drama.  Better if Bran were to go berserk and do something stupid to destroy the Starks and the Lannisters. 

[Angel Eyes]

3 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Bran is not going to forgive Jaime.  Revenge, not forgiveness, is the way of the Starks.  Forgiveness is boring and lack drama.  Better if Bran were to go berserk and do something stupid to destroy the Starks and the Lannisters. 

Depends on if Bran gets to him first; at this rate, Lady Stoneheart will give Jaime a short drop and a sudden stop.

[Damsel in Distress]

i despise Jaime Lannister.  So yes.  I want Bran to learn who crippled him and then attack Jaime.  Jaime was the instigator of the war between the five kings and the killer of his king, Aerys Targaryen. 

[Craving Peaches]

35 minutes ago, Damsel in Distress said:

killer of his king, Aerys Targaryen. 

That was one of the best things people have done in the books. Aerys had it coming.

[StarkTullies]

Some people are talking about how Bran might react "when" he learns that Jaime crippled him.  Bran already knows; he remembered very early on in A Clash of Kings... and he didn't "go berserk".  Nor did he express his desire to go on a murderous rampage when his father was killed, when his home was destroyed, or when his brother and mother were killed.  We don't need to speculate what kind of vengeful person Bran will be; we already know that he isn't.

We haven't seen Bran since he started to increase his powers, but Bran is trying to talk to Theon through the weirwood in Winterfell.  We don't know Bran's thoughts or intentions, but it doesn't seem like Bran is laying a trap for Theon.  If Bran was vengeful or vindictive, Theon would certainly be on his enemy list, but it seems like Bran has forgiven Theon.

As to whether Bran will sit in judgment of Jaime, we'll see.  I don't think Jaime will live long enough for Bran to be in any sort of position to judge him in an official capacity, but admittedly I don't know the story George Martin will write.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

On 11/4/2022 at 3:53 PM, BlackLightning said:

This is wrong.

 

I feel the need to respond to this, because I think you are not only misinterpreting what I said, but misinterpreting what the thread is about.

To me, what the OP was asking was to judge what Bran's reactions would be when he found out what really happened when he fell. The OP felt Bran would be forgiving, while I contended that Bran would be much more transactional in his reaction. The OP was not asking for outside moral judgement on what happened - he was looking to get inside Bran's head to see how he would react. That is what my post was based upon.

Your post did not seem to be based on what Bran would think, but be on outside judgement of the actions involved. That was not what I was writing about, because my evaluation was that was not what the thread was about. I was not trying to defend J & C, but was trying to put myself inside Bran's head. When I read that chapter, I definitely got the sense that Bran felt he might be doing something wrong by eavesdropping on the suspicious conversation, but felt compelled to do so due to what he heard. After all, was not Bran violating guest right by spying on his father's guests? Bran truly felt he was about to fall to his death, and was relieved and grateful when Jaime rescued him.

That's what I was saying. If I was not clear, I apologize. Your response, however, seemed not to properly address my ideas, or the OP in general.

[frenin]

On 11/4/2022 at 7:51 PM, Ibbison from Ibben said:

Jaime didn't need to do that; it was not in his interest to do so. Bran understands that he owes Jaime a debt

He doesn't.

 

On 11/4/2022 at 7:51 PM, Ibbison from Ibben said:

From an honor viewpoint, Jaime was within his rights to  end the life he had saved (from Bran's viewpoint.

Jaime was commiting treason twice. There's no honor involved or to be bounded to.

 

13 hours ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

After all, was not Bran violating guest right by spying on his father's guests?

No.

Where it's said this is part of guest right?

 

On 11/4/2022 at 5:24 AM, chrisdaw said:

A natural leader and military commander Jaime is going to be a vital potential asset to the realm of which there will be few come the Long Night few

I can think of 5-7 better military commanders and leaders than Jaime.

Bran can just set aside his differences now and judge him later.

 

 

 

 

[Bowen Marsh]

The Stark-Lannister Feud is not yet over.  Jaime started it.  Bran is not going to forgive.  It's just a question of who gets to have the last word.  Bran's magic against Lannister army.  

[chrisdaw]

12 hours ago, frenin said:

I can think of 5-7 better military commanders and leaders than Jaime.

Bran can just set aside his differences now and judge him later.

There won't be anyone available and better suited for roles come the TWFTD, it's why he's being played up as a natural leader of men and the new Tywin, he'll be indispensable. There won't be any second bite of things, like with Catelyn when Bran lets Jaime go it will be on trust that he's going to go do the right thing.

[frenin]

11 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

There won't be anyone available and better suited for roles come the TWFTD, it's why he's being played up as a natural leader of men and the new Tywin, he'll be indispensable. There won't be any second bite of things, like with Catelyn when Bran lets Jaime go it will be on trust that he's going to go do the right thing.

He's only played up as that in the first book and then he's promptly defeated by a 14yo and as Tywin? Come on now.

 

[sifth]

On 11/5/2022 at 5:06 AM, Craving Peaches said:

That was one of the best things people have done in the books. Aerys had it coming.

I know how dare Jamie  not let Avery’s burn the city down. How dare he, lol

[Craving Peaches]

48 minutes ago, sifth said:

I know how dare Jamie  not let Avery’s burn the city down. How dare he, lol

Disgraceful that he saved half a million lives. Such an awful act.

[frenin]

58 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Disgraceful that he saved half a million lives. Such an awful act.

And his life. Not that he couldn't have achieved that without killing Aerys.

[BlackLightning]

On 11/5/2022 at 5:09 PM, Ibbison from Ibben said:

I feel the need to respond to this, because I think you are not only misinterpreting what I said, but misinterpreting what the thread is about.

To me, what the OP was asking was to judge what Bran's reactions would be when he found out what really happened when he fell. The OP felt Bran would be forgiving, while I contended that Bran would be much more transactional in his reaction. The OP was not asking for outside moral judgement on what happened - he was looking to get inside Bran's head to see how he would react. That is what my post was based upon.

Your post did not seem to be based on what Bran would think, but be on outside judgement of the actions involved. That was not what I was writing about, because my evaluation was that was not what the thread was about. I was not trying to defend J & C, but was trying to put myself inside Bran's head. When I read that chapter, I definitely got the sense that Bran felt he might be doing something wrong by eavesdropping on the suspicious conversation, but felt compelled to do so due to what he heard. After all, was not Bran violating guest right by spying on his father's guests? Bran truly felt he was about to fall to his death, and was relieved and grateful when Jaime rescued him.

That's what I was saying. If I was not clear, I apologize. Your response, however, seemed not to properly address my ideas, or the OP in general.

I understand what you are saying. Thanks for clarifying.

Guest right is about safety and security; not about privacy. So, it's not a violation of guest right to eavesdrop or to snoop. To terrorize, imprison or harm your guests (or your hosts) is a violation of guest right.

 

I do think that Bran will pardon Jaime, but I do not think that Jaime was in the right at all. 

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

And his life. Not that he couldn't have achieved that without killing Aerys.

Absolutely disgusting that he had a sense of self-preservation. He should have killed his own father for Aerys, then laid down to die in his sick revenge fantasy.

[frenin]

23 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Absolutely disgusting that he had a sense of self-preservation. He should have killed his own father for Aerys, then laid down to die in his sick revenge fantasy.

Or, and hear me out here, he could just knocked him out and wait for the thirsy for Aerys's blood rebels to deal with him.

[Craving Peaches]

10 minutes ago, frenin said:

Or, and hear me out here, he could just knocked him out and wait for the thirsy for Aerys's blood rebels to deal with him.

Knocking the king out would still be in violation of his oath though so no matter what he would be considered an oathbreaker.