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Bran will Judge and Forgive Jaime


chrisdaw

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10 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

There's nothing incredible the text and story made it clear many times that it's Tyrion who's more like his father than Jaime ever will be, and that Jaime is by far the least Tywin-like of his children, Tyrion having his father's cunning, intelligence and taste for politics while Cersei has his ambition, cruelty and hypocrisy.

Jaime's attempt to be like his father are as good as Tygett's efforts to get out of his eldest brother's shadow, since he will never have Tywin's ambition, cunning and ruthlessness.

Not that the actual text is like to persuade you of anything but it makes clear Tyrion is not Tywin in the manner that makes Tywin Tywin.

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Far be it me to question your cunning, Father, but in your place I do believe I'd have let Robert Baratheon bloody his own hands."

Lord Tywin stared at him as if he had lost his wits. "You deserve that motley, then.

Because Tyrion

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A half smile flickered across the queen's face. "Robert's trueborn son and heir. Though Joff would cry whenever Robert picked him up. His Grace did not like that. His bastards had always gurgled at him happily, and sucked his finger when he put it in their little baseborn mouths. Robert wanted smiles and cheers, always, so he went where he found them, to his friends and his whores. Robert wanted to be loved. My brother Tyrion has the same disease. Do you want to be loved, Sansa?"

can't get past that desire to be loved. Indeed the public trial that makes him out to be a monster breaks him, whereas Jaime has been thought the number one monster in Westeros all his life and goes back for more when the situation demands it.

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Edmure raised his hands from the tub and watched the water run between his fingers. "And if I will not yield?"

Must you make me say the words? Pia was standing by the flap of the tent with her arms full of clothes. His squires were listening as well, and the singer. Let them hear, Jaime thought. Let the world hear. It makes no matter. He forced himself to smile, "You've seen our numbers, Edmure. You've seen the ladders, the towers, the trebuchets, the rams. If I speak the command, my coz will bridge your moat and break your gate. Hundreds will die, most of them your own. Your former bannermen will make up the first wave of attackers, so you'll start your day by killing the fathers and brothers of men who died for you at the Twins. The second wave will be Freys, I have no lack of those. My westermen will follow when your archers are short of arrows and your knights so weary they can hardly lift their blades. When the castle falls, all those inside will be put to the sword. Your herds will be butchered, your godswood will be felled, your keeps and towers will burn. I'll pull your walls down, and divert the Tumblestone over the ruins. By the time I'm done no man will ever know that a castle once stood here." Jaime got to his feet. "Your wife may whelp before that. You'll want your child, I expect. I'll send him to you when he's born. With a trebuchet."

Silence followed his speech. Edmure sat in his bath. Pia clutched the clothing to her breasts. The singer tightened a string on his harp. Little Lew hollowed out a loaf of stale bread to make a trencher, pretending that he had not heard. With a trebuchet, Jaime thought. If his aunt had been there, would she still say Tyrion was Tywin's son?

 

These passages exist, these situations and conversations all happen purely for the purpose of making this point.

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1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

Not that the actual text is like to persuade you of anything but it makes clear Tyrion is not Tywin in the manner that makes Tywin Tywin.

 

I think it's more abundantly clear that none of Tywin's children have what he believes necessary to be a ruler, but more bits and pieces. Tyrion has brains regarding politics but not as much ruthlessness (though that changes after he learns the truth about Tysha), Jaime has Tywin's tendency for being unapologetic about his actions but no ambition outside of being a Kingsguard, while Cersei has all Tywin's ruthlessness and then some (read: Falia Flowers) but nowhere near as measured when it comes to politics.

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16 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Yeah, Jaime is too unambitious, concerned about honor, uninterested by ruling and soft to be like Tywin no matter how much he tries to deny it. 

Even at this worst before his character development Jaime could never come near to his father in terms of cruelty and violence, and even after his development he certainely won't learn how to rule like Tywin did or uses his pen as his weapon instead of the sword. 

Jaime doesn't need to be Tywin's exact copy to be like him in certain ways. Tywin was an ambitious and cruel man who didn't care about honour and rightfulness overall. But he also was a cunning man, a natural leader that men listened and followed. 

Yes, Jaime is not ambitious or cruel like Tywin was. But he is definitely showing to be a cunning leader in Feast. So in that regard he is exactly becoming like Tywin. The text is pretty clear about that. That's what also Genna meant when she said that Jaime isn't Tywin's son. And she was wrong, as the next chapter blatantly showcased. Of course, to give her some slack, Jaime that she knew definitely didn't show any of those qualities before but that Jaime was gone after he lost his hand and she was yet to know the new one.

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Just now, Angel Eyes said:

Jaime has Tywin's tendency for being unapologetic about his actions but no ambition outside of being a Kingsguard,

It's an arc, things change, selfishness to servitude, irresponsible to total responsibility. Jaime's ambition isn't for himself, and slowly drifting away from his house to the whole of the realm. Tywin was an umbrella that enabled Jaime, but as is the point of Genna's speech Tywin died and now there's no-one to take responsibility for basically everything, everyone is exposed, enter Jaime.

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Snow in the riverlands. If it was snowing here, it could well be snowing on Lannisport as well, and on King's Landing. Winter is marching south, and half our granaries are empty. Any crops still in the fields were doomed. There would be no more plantings, no more hopes of one last harvest. He found himself wondering what his father would do to feed the realm, before he remembered that Tywin Lannister was dead.

He's growing into the part, it is gradual, from running away from the work of it.

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"I do not like it," a woman was saying. There was a row of windows beneath him, and the voice was drifting out of the last window on this side. "You shouldbe the Hand."

"Gods forbid," a man's voice replied lazily. "It's not an honor I'd want. There's far too much work involved."

 

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Why, my own sweet sister. There is no one else. My brother, Jaime, thirsts for battle, not for power. He's run from every chance he's had to rule.

and heading to the Riverlands was in some way about getting away from Cersei and her terrible ruling which he was butting into because he begins to be unable to help himself, but even then he can't help his thoughts wandering back to it.

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My sweet sister, the deceiver. He would need to find some way to winkle Tommen from her clutches before the boy became another Joffrey. And whilst at that, he should find the lad a new small council too. If Cersei can be put aside, Ser Kevan may agree to serve as Tommen's Hand. And if not, well, the Seven Kingdoms did not lack for able men. Forley Prester would make a good choice, or Roland Crakehall. If someone other than a westerman was needed to appease the Tyrells, there was always Mathis Rowan . . . or even Petyr Baelish. Littlefinger was as amiable as he was clever, but too lowborn to threaten any of the great lords, with no swords of his own. The perfect Hand.

And the Riverlands is just more ruling and problem solving for him, but he's doing it well and finding contentment in it. Satisfaction.

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Ask Edmure how chivalrous I am, thought Jaime. Ask him about the trebuchet. Somehow he did not think the maesters were like to confuse him with Prince Aemon the Dragonknight when they wrote their histories. Still, he felt curiously content. The war was all but won. Dragonstone had fallen and Storm's End would soon enough, he could not doubt, and Stannis was welcome to the Wall. The northmen would love him no more than the storm lords had. If Roose Bolton did not destroy him, winter would.

And he had done his own part here at Riverrun without actually ever taking up arms against the Starks or Tullys.

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6 hours ago, Dofs said:

Jaime doesn't need to be Tywin's exact copy to be like him in certain ways. Tywin was an ambitious and cruel man who didn't care about honour and rightfulness overall. But he also was a cunning man, a natural leader that men listened and followed. 

Yes, Jaime is not ambitious or cruel like Tywin was. But he is definitely showing to be a cunning leader in Feast. So in that regard he is exactly becoming like Tywin. The text is pretty clear about that. That's what also Genna meant when she said that Jaime isn't Tywin's son. And she was wrong, as the next chapter blatantly showcased. Of course, to give her some slack, Jaime that she knew definitely didn't show any of those qualities before but that Jaime was gone after he lost his hand and she was yet to know the new one.

I never said that Jaime wasn't without cunning but he isn't on the same level as Tyrion, and he isn't a political mind unlike his father and brother. 

And he still hasn't any ambition nor is anywhere close to do any of the extreme actions Tywin and Cersei are willing to do to rea their goals.

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7 hours ago, Dofs said:

And she was wrong, as the next chapter blatantly showcased.

The next chapter showed him strong arming Edmure, and breaking his word anyway, letting Brynden escape, believing he ought to make Littlefinger Hand and falling right into Brienne's trap.

Seem to me we are seeing what we want to see, that's hte beauty of an unfinished book i suppose.

Jaime did his best Tywin impression, on purpose but that's not him becoming Tywin. That's him bluffing.

 

7 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

and Stannis was welcome to the Wall. The northmen would love him no more than the storm lords had. If Roose Bolton did not destroy him, winter would.

Another proof that he's just a slighter  smarter version of Cersei.

Tywin would have never stopped distrusting Stannis.

 

Genna knows her nephews and she has passed judgement.

 

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Are you suggesting that there's no Jaime becoming Tywin arc because he got captured? What is your point here exactly?

That he  has improved but he remains the same self centered idiot.

His lack of hand has calmed his boldness but that's about it.

Again, there are several military leaders far more capable than Jaime.

 

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2 hours ago, frenin said:

The next chapter showed him strong arming Edmure, and breaking his word anyway, letting Brynden escape, believing he ought to make Littlefinger Hand and falling right into Brienne's trap.

Seem to me we are seeing what we want to see, that's hte beauty of an unfinished book i suppose.

Jaime did his best Tywin impression, on purpose but that's not him becoming Tywin. That's him bluffing.

 

Another proof that he's just a slighter  smarter version of Cersei.

Tywin would have never stopped distrusting Stannis.

 

Genna knows her nephews and she has passed judgement.

 

That he  has improved but he remains the same self centered idiot.

His lack of hand has calmed his boldness but that's about it.

Again, there are several military leaders far more capable than Jaime.

 

Well you are very right about seeing what you want to see at least.

2 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

I never said that Jaime wasn't without cunning but he isn't on the same level as Tyrion, and he isn't a political mind unlike his father and brother. 

And he still hasn't any ambition nor is anywhere close to do any of the extreme actions Tywin and Cersei are willing to do to rea their goals.

Hah yeah Jaime is just so adverse to extreme actions.

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21 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Well you are very right about seeing what you want to see at least.

Hah yeah Jaime is just so adverse to extreme actions.

Hah yeah Jaime is so close to do something on the same level as flooding a mine with many people inside, sack King's Landing, the Red Wedding, giving free rein to monsters such as Gregor Clegane or Armory Loch to massacre and rape as they want, or having a woman gang-raped by an entire garrison just for having dared to marry his son despite being a low-born. 

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2 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Hah yeah Jaime is so close to do something on the same level as flooding a mine with many people inside, sack King's Landing, the Red Wedding, giving free rein to monsters such as Gregor Clegane or Armory Loch to massacre and rape as they want, or having a woman gang-raped by an entire garrison just for having dared to marry his son despite being a low-born. 

Or slaying the king, as kingsguard.

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13 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Or slaying the king, as kingsguard.

Imagine comparing Jaime's killing of Aerys the Mad King to his father's atrocities, lol. 

It's like comparing a temporary cough to the Black Plague. There's just no comparison between the two. 

The probability for Jaime of becoming like his father is the same for Hodor of becoming an archmaester. 

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Just now, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Imagine comparing Jaime's killing of Aerys the Mad King to his father's atrocities, lol. 

It's like comparing a temporary cough to the Black Plague. There's just no comparison between the two. 

To try and pass Jaime off as not willing to partake in extreme actions is basic text denial and there's nowhere really to go from there because it means you're not willing to learn.

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1 minute ago, chrisdaw said:

To try and pass Jaime off as not willing to partake in extreme actions is basic text denial and there's nowhere really to go from there because it means you're not willing to learn.

Jaime has never shown that he would be willing nor even capable of committing the same level of petty and monstruous atrocities that his father have committed ever since he was a teenager. Nor that he's even fit to properly rule a castle or a city, even less a region or the realm as a whole. 

Saying that Jaime can and will become like Tywin is as vain as Balon Greyjoy's dreams of bringing back the Old Way for the Iron Islands. 

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Just now, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Jaime has never shown that he would be willing nor even capable of committing the same level of petty and monstruous atrocities that his father have committed ever since he was a teenager. Nor that he's even fit to properly rule a castle or a city, even less a region or the realm as a whole. 

Saying that Jaime can and will become like Tywin is as vain as Balon Greyjoy's dreams of bringing back the Old Way for the Iron Islands. 

It's not saying it, it's quoting text at you which clearly spells it out that you haven't (and obviously couldn't) begun to address. Instead you just go on with useless tangential nonsense like the character that begins the series by pushing a child off a tower and is responsible for the most infamous in world act doesn't do extreme. 

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3 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

It's not saying it, it's quoting text at you which clearly spells it out that you haven't (and obviously couldn't) begun to address. Instead you just go on with useless tangential nonsense like the character that begins the series by pushing a child off a tower and is responsible for the most infamous in world act doesn't do extreme. 

There's no point into quoting text if it's a for an unfounded theory, when the books make it clear that Jaime is the one who inherited the least of his father in terms of personality and has no interest in politics nor ruling and this he's becoming only less Tywinesque with his character development following ASOS.

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6 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

There's no point into quoting text if it's a for an unfounded theory, when the books make it clear that Jaime is the one who inherited the least of his father in terms of personality and has no interest in politics nor ruling and this he's becoming only less Tywinesque with his character development following ASOS.

So you're running with basic text denial.

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"Long and bitter. A life without honor. Until his dying day, men will say he was afraid to fight."

Unjustly, Jaime thought. It was his child he feared for. He knew whose son I am, better than mine own aunt. "The choice was his. His uncle would have made us bleed."

 

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Silence followed his speech. Edmure sat in his bath. Pia clutched the clothing to her breasts. The singer tightened a string on his harp. Little Lew hollowed out a loaf of stale bread to make a trencher, pretending that he had not heard. With a trebuchet, Jaime thought. If his aunt had been there, would she still say Tyrion was Tywin's son?

The text means what it says. There's no stupid "Jaime doesn't really know what he's talking about when it comes to himself and what he would do" shit going on here. That's flat out fucking absurd. Painful. There's about ten chapters worth of ramming the point home. Since Feast every Jaime chapter has a "Jaime becoming Tywin in the precise terms GRRM articulates through Genna" point to it. You just have an emotional investment in hating Tywin and so are resistant to the idea that Jaime who you don't hate is becoming like him. And really, I'm the idiot for having wasted time replying to you when I knew from the beginning what you were and where you were coming from, I may as well have been posting in Arya is a psychopath thread.V28, it's the same character hate leading to text denial process.

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1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

So you're running with basic text denial.

The text means what it says. There's no stupid "Jaime doesn't really know what he's talking about when it comes to himself and what he would do" shit going on here. That's flat out fucking absurd. Painful. There's about ten chapters worth of ramming the point home. Since Feast every Jaime chapter has a "Jaime becoming Tywin in the precise terms GRRM articulates through Genna" point to it. You just have an emotional investment in hating Tywin and so are resistant to the idea that Jaime who you don't hate is becoming like him. And really, I'm the idiot for having wasted time replying to you when I knew from the beginning what you were and where you were coming from, I may as well have been posting in Arya is a psychopath thread.V28, it's the same character hate leading to text denial process.

I am following the text perfectly, the one that says that Jaime is by far the least Tywinesque of Tywin's kids, that one that has Genna says that Tyrion is his son that's the most like him and that Jaime has become a better person since losing his hand and is trying to reconnect with honor, has no interest in politics or in the Lannisters ambitions that motivated his father so much and is far more interested in war and the Kingsguard, and is fairly close with his squires and soldiers and does things with them that Tywin would have never done. 

There's no point for you to keep using just samples of text that are used in a biased way and don't say that Jaime is becoming like Tywin anyway and ignore the rest of the text that shows otherwise.

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Tywin would have taken up Cersei's offer to be hand. Jaime refused.

The text is open to interpretation but I would question what the point of including Genna's quote is if it is not true.

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"Jaime," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak . . . but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you.

Why have a character say this if Jaime is intended to be becoming more like Tywin? Why have him reject offers which would grant him more power, something Tywin almost certainly wouldn't have rejected? Why have him refuse to leave the Kingsguard in the first place? Why have him release prisoners rather than keeping them as hostages? Why have him fraternise with his fellow soldiers? 

I don't see the point in having him do all these unlike-Tywin things, and have an actual character tell him to his face that Tyrion is Tywin's son, not him, if he is intended to be becoming more like Tywin.

Now Jaime may think he's becoming more like Tywin, but that doesn't mean it's true.

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With a trebuchet, Jaime thought. If his aunt had been there, would she still say Tyrion was Tywin's son?

Tywin arguably wouldn't have done something like this as the baby is a valuable hostage, and growing up in Casterly Rock could be raised to be a pro-Lannister Lord. And of course if Edmure doesn't surrender then you have to follow through with the threat. So it puts a valuable hostage at risk. It is still, when you get down to it, relatively short-sighted and rash. And overt. So ultimately un-Twyinlike.

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3 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

The text means what it says. There's no stupid "Jaime doesn't really know what he's talking about when it comes to himself and what he would do" shit going on here. That's flat out fucking absurd. Painful. There's about ten chapters worth of ramming the point home. Since Feast every Jaime chapter has a "Jaime becoming Tywin in the precise terms GRRM articulates through Genna" point to it. You just have an emotional investment in hating Tywin and so are resistant to the idea that Jaime who you don't hate is becoming like him. And really, I'm the idiot for having wasted time replying to you when I knew from the beginning what you were and where you were coming from, I may as well have been posting in Arya is a psychopath thread.V28, it's the same character hate leading to text denial process.

Genna Lannister says that Tyrion is Tywin's true child and then Jaime, upset by that comment, does his best Tywin impression... How's this an argument for Jaime being "Tywin"

 

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 With a trebuchet, Jaime thought. If his aunt had been there, would she still say Tyrion was Tywin's son?

 

And not this

 

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Lady Merryweather did not appear that night, and Cersei found herself too restless to sleep. If Lord Tywin could see me now, he would know he had his heir, an heir worthy of the Rock

 

Both are Tywin wannabes the only one who, curiously enough, never tries to imitate Tywin is Tyrion, Genna knows the siblings well enough to know the steel from the copper.

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13 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

I never said that Jaime wasn't without cunning but he isn't on the same level as Tyrion, and he isn't a political mind unlike his father and brother. 

After losing his hand Jaime does become increasingly on Tyrion's level. Martin actually flat out shows it in Storm. This is how Jaime thinks when he still has his sword hand and is in a very tricky situation:

"Tyrion could think of something clever now, but all that occurs to me is to go at them with a sword."

Jaime had a mentality that he was stupid and the only way he could ever deal with problems is using his sword. But then he lost his sword hand and another tricky situation comes up when Jaime starts to think about his brother:

"Once Jaime might have countered with a smile and a threat, but one-handed cripples do not inspire much fear. He wondered what his brother would do. Tyrion would find a way."

Here Jaime doesn't even have an option of fighting his way out of this and in desperation is forced to switch his brain and what then happens?

"Lannisters lie, Steelshanks. Didn't Lord Bolton tell you that?"

The man frowned suspiciously. "What if he did?"

"Unless you take me back to Harrenhal, the song I sing my father may not be one the Lord of the Dreadfort would wish to hear. I might even say it was Bolton ordered my hand cut off, and Steelshanks Walton who swung the blade."

Jaime immediately starts to think like Tyrion. And then later you can see it more and more. The comparisons with Tywin also start coming up when Jaime explained to Cersei what she had to do with Tyrells:

Cersei gave him a lingering look. "You know," she said, "for a moment you sounded quite like Father."

Mind that with this comparison Martin ends first Jaime's chapter in Feast, so he stressed this idea that Jaime starts to rump up his political astuteness to Tywin's level. And later Jaime ends the months long siege with a complete victory in two days using a blatant manipulation, insight into people and cunning, cementing the idea that him "not being Tywin's son" isn't exactly true.

13 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

And he still hasn't any ambition nor is anywhere close to do any of the extreme actions Tywin and Cersei are willing to do to rea their goals.

Genna's comment about being Tywin's son has nothing to do with ambition or extreme actions. The entire context of their conversation was about this Genna's question:

"Who will protect us now?"

It's not about ambition, Genna herself is not an ambitious woman, given how she was actually upset they were given Riverrun. Nor Genna meant the cruelty Tywin was willing to go to to achieve his goals. What she was talking about was leading and protecting House Lannister. Not the means to do it. But the ability to do it. And she says that Jaime doesn't have this ability like Tywin did, hence he wasn't "Tywin's son" and it was actually Tyrion who inherited it. Jaime, and Martin, really, showed that she was now wrong. The new Jaime is not the one she knew before, the one who when faced with a difficult situation could only think about his sword. The new Jaime now successfully uses his head, which Martin showcased in the very next chapter.

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4 hours ago, frenin said:

Genna Lannister says that Tyrion is Tywin's true child and then Jaime, upset by that comment, does his best Tywin impression... How's this an argument for Jaime being "Tywin"

 

 

And not this

 

 

Both are Tywin wannabes the only one who, curiously enough, never tries to imitate Tywin is Tyrion, Genna knows the siblings well enough to know the steel from the copper.

Ok so you're coming from the I hate Jaime so he's nothing but a pale imitation emotional angle.

The Cersei chapters and are a comedy of errors. Jaime's are a string of successes. The author even allows for clear "following in footsteps" comparisons between Jaime and Tywin. It's an arc and Genna is being used to delineate the starting point of the arc, that's why the author opens her assessment with stating she's known him as a babe at the breast, to make clear where she's coming from. Jaime is becoming like Tywin in the way the text makes explicit, it's significant and key to his arc, biting around the edges at ways in which he's not a carbon copy of Tywin would do nothing to discredit this. The regard for Littlefinger is a mistake but rather than in contrast to Tywin is a continuation of a mistake first made by Tywin, as has been discussed for over a decade.

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