Jump to content

Bran will Judge and Forgive Jaime


chrisdaw

Recommended Posts

10 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Ok so you're coming from the I hate Jaime so he's nothing but a pale imitation emotional angle.

The Cersei chapters and are a comedy of errors. Jaime's are a string of successes. The author even allows for clear "following in footsteps" comparisons between Jaime and Tywin. It's an arc and Genna is being used to delineate the starting point of the arc, that's why the author opens her assessment with stating she's known him as a babe at the breast, to make clear where she's coming from. Jaime is becoming like Tywin in the way the text makes explicit, it's significant and key to his arc, biting around the edges at ways in which he's not a carbon copy of Tywin would do nothing to discredit this. The regard for Littlefinger is a mistake but rather than in contrast to Tywin is a continuation of a mistake first made by Tywin, as has been discussed for over a decade.

Well of course it'll depend on whether or not Jaime will be able to figure out that Brienne is leading him into a trap. If he gets to Hollow Hill it'll likely come down to whether or not Jaime can fight out of it, which he can't. And given that Lady Stoneheart is unlikely to listen to reason, he'll be hanged.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

After losing his hand Jaime does become increasingly on Tyrion's level. Martin actually flat out shows it in Storm. This is how Jaime thinks when he still has his sword hand and is in a very tricky situation:

"Tyrion could think of something clever now, but all that occurs to me is to go at them with a sword."

Jaime had a mentality that he was stupid and the only way he could ever deal with problems is using his sword. But then he lost his sword hand and another tricky situation comes up when Jaime starts to think about his brother:

"Once Jaime might have countered with a smile and a threat, but one-handed cripples do not inspire much fear. He wondered what his brother would do. Tyrion would find a way."

Here Jaime doesn't even have an option of fighting his way out of this and in desperation is forced to switch his brain and what then happens?

"Lannisters lie, Steelshanks. Didn't Lord Bolton tell you that?"

The man frowned suspiciously. "What if he did?"

"Unless you take me back to Harrenhal, the song I sing my father may not be one the Lord of the Dreadfort would wish to hear. I might even say it was Bolton ordered my hand cut off, and Steelshanks Walton who swung the blade."

Jaime immediately starts to think like Tyrion. And then later you can see it more and more. The comparisons with Tywin also start coming up when Jaime explained to Cersei what she had to do with Tyrells:

Cersei gave him a lingering look. "You know," she said, "for a moment you sounded quite like Father."

Mind that with this comparison Martin ends first Jaime's chapter in Feast, so he stressed this idea that Jaime starts to rump up his political astuteness to Tywin's level. And later Jaime ends the months long siege with a complete victory in two days using a blatant manipulation, insight into people and cunning, cementing the idea that him "not being Tywin's son" isn't exactly true.

Genna's comment about being Tywin's son has nothing to do with ambition or extreme actions. The entire context of their conversation was about this Genna's question:

"Who will protect us now?"

It's not about ambition, Genna herself is not an ambitious woman, given how she was actually upset they were given Riverrun. Nor Genna meant the cruelty Tywin was willing to go to to achieve his goals. What she was talking about was leading and protecting House Lannister. Not the means to do it. But the ability to do it. And she says that Jaime doesn't have this ability like Tywin did, hence he wasn't "Tywin's son" and it was actually Tyrion who inherited it. Jaime, and Martin, really, showed that she was now wrong. The new Jaime is not the one she knew before, the one who when faced with a difficult situation could only think about his sword. The new Jaime now successfully uses his head, which Martin showcased in the very next chapter.

Using his head and not relying only on his sword anymore is still not making him closer to his father and brother. If he really wants to be more like his father Jaime will have to be even more intelligent, cunning but above all fit for the game of thrones and far more cruel, ruthless and not giving a shit about honor. 

Jaime is still far from Tyrion's level of intelligence, persuasion and ability to talk himself out of a situation and above all he still hasn't any ambition or desire to play a bigger role in politics or to push pencils, in fact he has fully given up on his family's ambitions, with his goals being instead to rekindle with his honor and to fullfill his kingsguard better than before and protecting Tommen. Tyrion enjoys the game and politics but Jaime doesn't. 

And he hasn't shown any progress in coming close to his father's cruelty, pettiness and willingness to use the dirtiest means to reach his goals either. In fact he has gone in the other way around. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well of course it'll depend on whether or not Jaime will be able to figure out that Brienne is leading him into a trap. If he gets to Hollow Hill it'll likely come down to whether or not Jaime can fight out of it, which he can't. And given that Lady Stoneheart is unlikely to listen to reason, he'll be hanged.

And if it's not Lady Stoneheart and the BWB who get him, he has big chances to end up captured and executed by Aegon and his followers. 

I do admit that I would like to see him meeting Aegon and Jon Connington. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

Ok so you're coming from the I hate Jaime so he's nothing but a pale imitation emotional angle.

Jaime is point blank told that he's not like Tywin, in the next chapter not only does he strive to act like Tywin but he congratulates himsef for it.

That's a poor copy.

 

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

The Cersei chapters and are a comedy of errors. Jaime's are a string of successes.

Cersei always believed herself Tywin's true son.

And before his comedy of errors, she managed both to kill Robert and defeat Ned Stark, single handely saving her house (that she and Jaime had left in peril in the first place but that's another matter).

Cersei doesn't start considering herself Tywin 2.0 in AFFC and before that book her path was a "string of successes".

 

 

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

The author even allows for clear "following in footsteps" comparisons between Jaime and Tywin.

He does so with Cersei and with Tyrion too.

Only one of them is acting without the intention of impress dead daddy.

 

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

It's an arc and Genna is being used to delineate the starting point of the arc, that's why the author opens her assessment with stating she's known him as a babe at the breast, to make clear where she's coming from.

To affirm something obvious, Tywin's arc of rise and fall or fall and rise is Tyrion's, not Jaime's.

 

 

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

Jaime is becoming like Tywin in the way the text makes explicit, it's significant and key to his arc, biting around the edges at ways in which he's not a carbon copy of Tywin would do nothing to discredit this.

Doing purposefully his best impression of Tywin is not "becoming like Tywin". I doubt that you believe Stannis is becoming like Robert because he uses Robert's tactics. It's a silly notion.

Jaime literally bluffed, Tywin would never do that.

 

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

The regard for Littlefinger is a mistake but rather than in contrast to Tywin is a continuation of a mistake first made by Tywin, as has been discussed for over a decade.

What first mistake made by Tywin?

Tywin had nothing to do with Petyr's appointment in the small council.

 

Both Jaime and Cersei make some gains and fuck it up, both are arrogant, both believe themselves far more clever than they are and both are trying to prove themeslves worthy of Tywin.

It is obvious that the only child of Tywin worthy of him is the one who does not behave like this.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, frenin said:

Jaime is point blank told that he's not like Tywin, in the next chapter not only does he strive to act like Tywin but he congratulates himsef for it.

That's a poor copy.

 

Cersei always believed herself Tywin's true son.

And before his comedy of errors, she managed both to kill Robert and defeat Ned Stark, single handely saving her house (that she and Jaime had left in peril in the first place but that's another matter).

Cersei doesn't start considering herself Tywin 2.0 in AFFC and before that book her path was a "string of successes".

 

 

He does so with Cersei and with Tyrion too.

Only one of them is acting without the intention of impress dead daddy.

 

To affirm something obvious, Tywin's arc of rise and fall or fall and rise is Tyrion's, not Jaime's.

 

 

Doing purposefully his best impression of Tywin is not "becoming like Tywin". I doubt that you believe Stannis is becoming like Robert because he uses Robert's tactics. It's a silly notion.

Jaime literally bluffed, Tywin would never do that.

 

What first mistake made by Tywin?

Tywin had nothing to do with Petyr's appointment in the small council.

 

Both Jaime and Cersei make some gains and fuck it up, both are arrogant, both believe themselves far more clever than they are and both are trying to prove themeslves worthy of Tywin.

It is obvious that the only child of Tywin worthy of him is the one who does not behave like this.

 

Basically no, as per swathes of text previously provided.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

"If is a word for fools. We have had no word from Davos. It may be he never reached White Harbor. Arnolf Karstark writes that the storms have been fierce upon the narrow sea. Be that as it may. I have no time to grieve, nor wait upon the whims of Lord Too-Fat. I must consider White Harbor lost to me. Without a son of Winterfell to stand beside me, I can only hope to win the north by battle. That requires stealing a leaf from my brother's book. Not that Robert ever read one. I must deal my foes a mortal blow before they know that I am on them."

Wonder if Stannis is becoming Robert. He even wooed the Northern Clans...:rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well of course it'll depend on whether or not Jaime will be able to figure out that Brienne is leading him into a trap. If he gets to Hollow Hill it'll likely come down to whether or not Jaime can fight out of it, which he can't. And given that Lady Stoneheart is unlikely to listen to reason, he'll be hanged.

He'll probably be taken by the BWB and hidden away until the Dance sweeps over and escapes/is saved when the BWB destroys itself, probably that's where he was going to spend the 5 year gap. The becoming Tywin arc has been worked through and the hold Cersei had on him over and thus he's more advanced than most other character arcs, he needs to be put on ice and there's not really any progression left for him until Dany/Aegon (forcing him to answer for what he did to Aerys) and Tyrion return.

He's not going to be involved in what will be a completely failed Lannister defence against Aegon and he's not dying. Torturous humbling captivity is most like.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Using his head and not relying only on his sword anymore is still not making him closer to his father and brother. 

Except Martin literally, clearly compares his cunning to Tyrion's and Tywin's.

1 hour ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

above all he still hasn't any ambition or desire to play a bigger role in politics or to push pencils ... Tyrion enjoys the game and politics but Jaime doesn't. 

And he hasn't shown any progress in coming close to his father's cruelty, pettiness and willingness to use the dirtiest means to reach his goals either. In fact he has gone in the other way around. 

Omg, did you just ignore everything I wrote? The only useful way to discuss the comparison between Jaime and Tywin is only using the context provided in the books. What exactly did Genna mean by the idea that Tyrion is Tywin's son and not Jaime? How did Jaime take it? In what way does Jaime want to emulate his father (because he clearly does a few times)?

You literally ignore any of this context, invent your own (well, it seems like almost everyone does, but I did address this with you and you literally ignored it as if it was never written) and than argue about it.

Well, sorry, I don't care about Tywin's cruelty, pettiness and willingness to use the dirties means to reach his goals in this topic, not do I care about his ambitions. As far as Genna's conversation with Jaime is concerned, all of it is irrelevant.

Also,

1 hour ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

above all he still hasn't any ambition or desire to play a bigger role in politics or to push pencils, in fact he has fully given up on his family's ambitions, with his goals being instead to rekindle with his honor and to fullfill his kingsguard better than before and protecting Tommen.

Literally why the entire point of Tyrion vs Jaime with regards to Tywin is even brought up in the books:

"Who will protect us now?"

Jaime kissed her cheek. "He left a son."

Jaime being in the Kingsguard literally goes against his overall character arc of becoming his own person and deciding for himself. As it goes against the entire idea of the Kingsguard. Jaime is also the worst Kingsguard you could ever have: a smart and cunning guy whose loyalty is entirely conditional on what he think of you.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Except Martin literally, clearly compares his cunning to Tyrion's and Tywin's.

Omg, did you just ignore everything I wrote? The only useful way to discuss the comparison between Jaime and Tywin is only using the context provided in the books. What exactly did Genna mean by the idea that Tyrion is Tywin's son and not Jaime? How did Jaime take it? In what way does Jaime want to emulate his father (because he clearly does a few times)?

You literally ignore any of this context, invent your own (well, it seems like almost everyone does, but I did address this with you and you literally ignored it as if it was never written) and than argue about it.

Well, sorry, I don't care about Tywin's cruelty, pettiness and willingness to use the dirties means to reach his goals in this topic, not do I care about his ambitions. As far as Genna's conversation with Jaime is concerned, all of it is irrelevant.

Also,

Literally why the entire point of Tyrion vs Jaime with regards to Tywin is even brought up in the books:

"Who will protect us now?"

Jaime kissed her cheek. "He left a son."

Jaime being in the Kingsguard literally goes against his overall character arc of becoming his own person and deciding for himself. As it goes against the entire idea of the Kingsguard. Jaime is also the worst Kingsguard you could ever have: a smart and cunning guy whose loyalty is entirely conditional on what he think of you.

 

I didn't ignore it, it just failed to convince me one bit. 

Even compared to Tyrion and Tywin's cunning, Jaime isn't a mastermind planner or schemer, and the intelligence he shows is more for the battlefield than for the ruling and administration of a kingdom. And as I and several others have said many times earlier his mind isn't a political or bureaucratic one like Tywin and Tyrion's, at no point he shows a particuliar talent for politics or the scheming that go alongside them and has no interest into that field. 

Which is why Genna rightly said that Tyrion is Tywin's son, not him. 

And you might say otherwise but Tywin's cruelty, pettiness and use of dirty means aren't irrelevant at all to his and Jaime's characters. as it was one of Tywin's most essential traits both for his personality and the story, and that it also marks one of the biggest differences between him and Jaime. 

For all of his bravado and cynicism Jaime can never stop caring about honor or letting loose on his morals, and could never go to the lengths his father went to increase his and his family's power, defeat his foes and exact vengeance on others. 

And saying that the KG goes against Jaime's character is clearly not paying attention to Jaime's character development in ASOS and AFFC with him making it clear to his father that he's never going to leave willingly the Kingsguard, him taking his role as a KG and lord commander far more seriously and trying to redeem the institution and to bring back knight honor to himself and the KG. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As @frenin has mentionned Cersei and Jaime can try to emulate Tywin as they want, they can never become like him because neither of them have Tywin's political intelligence and qualities as a bureaucrat and ruler, that Cersei is far too unhinged, paranoid, short-sighted and inept while Jaime is just too knightly, honorable and uninterested in and unfit for politics and bureaucracy.

It has always been Tyrion who's been Tywin's true successor and son, and it's ironically while wanting to have nothing to do anymore with the father he killed and who persecuted him so much and seeking revenge on his own family that he's only becoming more like Tywin in terms of scheming and cold ruthlessness while having increased his experience and skills in manipulation and schemes. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Jaime is just too knightly, honorable and uninterested in and unfit for politics and bureaucracy.

The point of the trebuchet scene is specifically that when push comes to shove he will play the villain for the optimum outcome, honour be damned. He's not willingly seeking position or power but is being drawn to it in Tywin's void (as Tywin was drawn to leadership when his house was completely lacking in it), it's seeking him and he can't just leave things to ruin, as per the Genna protector speech and who will feed the realm quote. He's clearly fit for it as per a book full of chapters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, chrisdaw said:

The point of the trebuchet scene is specifically that when push comes to shove he will play the villain for the optimum outcome, honour be damned. He's not willingly seeking position or power but is being drawn to it in Tywin's void (as Tywin was drawn to leadership when his house was completely lacking in it), it's seeking him and he can't just leave things to ruin, as per the Genna protector speech and who will feed the realm quote. He's clearly fit for it as per a book full of chapters.

A single scene of him trying to emulate his father doesn't make Jaime like him. The point is only made more clear the next chapter when Edmure allowed his uncle to get away and openly mocked Jaime about it, his discussion with Jeyne Westerling and her mother, his attitude with the Freys and how easily he allowed Tullys' followers to take the Black as he was content to take Riverrun without having to take arms against the Tullys or Starks.

And the void left by his father's death isn't one that any of the Lannisters can fill in time, not with the situation they are in now with their power falling, their alliance with the Tyrells on the verge of collapse, their other allies being about to be slaughtered and too many and strong enemies rising at once. Only Kevan could do it since only him had the political skills and intelligence to deal with the chaos left by Cersei and the threat of Aegon and his followers, and he's dead now. The ship that is the Lannister regime is sinking and no one can stop it anymore.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

A single scene of him trying to emulate his father doesn't make Jaime like him. The point is only made more clear the next chapter when Edmure allowed his uncle to get away and openly mocked Jaime about it, his discussion with Jeyne Westerling and her mother, his attitude with the Freys and how easily he allowed Tullys' followers to take the Black as he was content to take Riverrun without having to take arms against the Tullys or Starks.

And the void left by his father's death isn't one that any of the Lannisters can fill in time, not with the situation they are in now with their power falling, their alliance with the Tyrells on the verge of collapse, their other allies being about to be slaughtered and too many and strong enemies rising at once. Only Kevan could do it since only him had the political skills and intelligence to deal with the chaos left by Cersei and the threat of Aegon and his followers, and he's dead now. The ship that is the Lannister regime is sinking and no one can stop it anymore.

The scene is part of a book worth of Jaime becoming Tywin but specifically the scene shows exactly what I said it shows and disproves what you said.

His attitude to the Freys is in accordance with Tywin, enemies in the field steel, enemies on their knees help up. The Blackfish is neither here nor there.

You're arguing Jaime isn't becoming the Tywin in your head, as I foresaw and tried to head off when I told you Jaime is becoming Tywin specifically in the manner GRRM has Genna spell out, he invented a whole backstory so that Genna could tell it and so articulate the point.

No Tywin wouldn't have had the same feelings as Jaime towards Lady Sybelle (though Jaime was set to honour Tywin's deal). But that doesn't in the slightest mean Jaime isn't becoming Tywin in the manner the text has gone out of it's way to show.

The rest is a useless blah of nothing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

I didn't ignore it, it just failed to convince me one bit. 

And instead of writing that you weren't convinced, you ignored it. 

19 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Even compared to Tyrion and Tywin's cunning, Jaime isn't a mastermind planner or schemer, and the intelligence he shows is more for the battlefield than for the ruling and administration of a kingdom. And as I and several others have said many times earlier his mind isn't a political or bureaucratic one like Tywin and Tyrion's, at no point he shows a particuliar talent for politics or the scheming that go alongside them and has no interest into that field. 

Jaime has noted corruption and inefficiency in the King's Landing prison system just by seeing it once, has told Cersei how and why she had to deal with Tyrells, to the point that even Cersei had to concede, and fully won a siege in two days without shedding a blood. None of that has anything to do with a battlefield. 

Of course, Jaime didn't have any opportunity to actually rule, nor does he have a desire to, but Martin has not been subtle at all that the talent is definitely there. I mean, his main Feast plot is literally about him defeating his opponents with his cunning and brains without a fight. Martin spent 3 chapters for that. And you are saying that he showed no particular talent for scheming?

And that not to mention that Jaime is one of the very few characters who thinks about the state of the realm and people in in the face of upcoming winter and he thinks constantly about that in Feast.

19 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

And you might say otherwise but Tywin's cruelty, pettiness and use of dirty means aren't irrelevant at all to his and Jaime's characters. as it was one of Tywin's most essential traits both for his personality and the story, and that it also marks one of the biggest differences between him and Jaime. 

For all of his bravado and cynicism Jaime can never stop caring about honor or letting loose on his morals, and could never go to the lengths his father went to increase his and his family's power, defeat his foes and exact vengeance on others. 

I mean, it's great that you think that Tywin's cruelty isn't irrelevant to his and Jaime's characters. It definitely isn't for some topics of discussion. What does this have to do with the comparison between the two that Genna made though? And if you think that to discuss Genna's words, the context she gave them in isn't relevant, what else are we going to compare them in? The length of their manhoods?

19 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

And saying that the KG goes against Jaime's character is clearly not paying attention to Jaime's character development in ASOS and AFFC with him making it clear to his father that he's never going to leave willingly the Kingsguard, him taking his role as a KG and lord commander far more seriously and trying to redeem the institution and to bring back knight honor to himself and the KG. 

Jaime's dedication to Kingsguard is his honour speaking in him. But he absolutely doesn't belong to it because Kingsguard is not an institution for people who actually genuinely try to be righteous and honourable knights. A Kingsguard's job is to protect the king/queen without questions and fully consider the Kingsguard oath above all else. And Jaime just isn't a person like that. He already went against his oath after his decision to stay with it and return back honour to it when he released Tyrion. 

He then literally told his Kingsguard members to disobey Cersei, the Queen Regent, and obey him instead. He then starts to scheme in Riverlands about how to get rid of her. That's literally yet another treason he is doing against his King/Queen.

A huge part of Jaime's arc is to become his own man and to start to think for himself. That's literally what his White Book scene was about:

"Ser Gerold Hightower had begun his history, and Ser Barristan Selmy had continued it, but the rest Jaime Lannister would need to write for himself. He could write whatever he chose, henceforth.

Whatever he chose . . ."

But he can't do that while being a glorified bodyguard that is expected to be loyal no matter what. Hence I think Jaime's days in the Kingsguard are numbered. Because of that and because of the obvious events that will happen in the future.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...