GoT never worked for me but this does.

[StarkTullies]

I'm the opposite.  I expected to like the House of the Dragon more than Game of Thrones, because GOT had no choice but to be dumbed down from the source material due to its immense length and complexity (though it was "dumbed down" much more than it needed to be by the end).  HOTD is the opposite.  It is a relatively small section of a single book being stretched out into multiple seasons, so they had the chance to make it more complex.

Even then, HOTD seemed rushed.  They elaborated on things that didn't matter; I couldn't care less about Daemon's war with the crabfeeder, which got one paragraph of text in the book... and Daemon surviving his 1 vs 1000 combat in that ridiculous "battle" reminded me of the worst elements of the later seasons of GOT.  But then Rhaenyra marries Daemon in a secret ceremony, and the show fast-forwards several years so we never see Viserys's reaction to his daughter's outrageous insubordination.  He named her the heir specifically to keep the throne away from Daemon, and then she just handed the throne to him.  Why did they decide to skip that when wasting so much time on the bloody crabfeeder?

I guess that's one reason why I don't enjoy HOTD too much: I utterly despise Daemon Targaryen.  He reminds me of Bronn in GOT: a reprehensibly immoral character who fans somehow find lovable, and the show plays up on it.  Daemon is the same way, but Bronn is just a minor "comic relief" sidekick, while Daemon is one of the main characters.

I am also disappointed by George Martin's hype, which just seems like false advertising.  No, this is not his "true" story.  Rhaenys bursting through the Dragon Pit floor was not something the maesters forgot to write about in the history books; it never happened, because everything about the scene was illogical and ridiculous.

I don't dislike the show, but I find that I don't care if it takes two more years for Season 2 to come out, or five years, or if it never comes out at all.  Maybe that is another reason I am biased against the show: George Martin can do whatever he wants with his life, and I'm not one of those angry unhinged "fans" angry at him for not finishing The Winds of Winter.  Yet I still see this poor retelling of Fire & Blood as a distraction from his vastly superior books.

[Ran]

59 minutes ago, StarkTullies said:

No, this is not his "true" story.

It is the true story within the HBO canon. But George was also clear that the canon of the show is not the same as the canon of the books. There are innumerable differences between the two canons that cannot be reconicled, starting most simply with the shifting age of Alicent to make her a childhood best friend of Rhaenyra.

 

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

It is the true story within the HBO canon. But George was also clear that the canon of the show is not the same as the canon of the books. There are innumerable differences between the two canons that cannot be reconicled, starting most simply with the shifting age of Alicent to make her a childhood best friend of Rhaenyra.

 

Like Maester Aemon saying he only had two brothers? That'll make any adaptations of Tales of Dunk and Egg impossible... unless they want to morph Daeron the Drunk and Egg into the same character or something like that.

[Ran]

30 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Like Maester Aemon saying he only had two brothers? That'll make any adaptations of Tales of Dunk and Egg impossible... unless they want to morph Daeron the Drunk and Egg into the same character or something like that.

George already got them to agree to retcon the disappearance of Jaehaerys II, so I think he's willing to see them retcon other changes they made from the book canon to try and align it more with the books. But it's always going to be its own canon.

[Winterfell is Burning]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

George already got them to agree to retcon the disappearance of Jaehaerys II, so I think he's willing to see them retcon other changes they made from the book canon to try and align it more with the books. But it's always going to be its own canon.

Frankly, Jaehaerys II being removed was one of the things D&D got right. Makes zero sense with the show ages, and those show ages make a lot more sense than the books'

 

 

[Annara Snow]

1 hour ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Frankly, Jaehaerys II being removed was one of the things D&D got right. Makes zero sense with the show ages, and those show ages make a lot more sense than the books'

 

 

It makes zero sense for Aegon V, the guy who was so against incest, to force Aerys and Rhaella to marry each other.
it also creates a bunch of other issues with any potential adaptation of Dunk and Egg/Aegon V"s rule.

[Annara Snow]

5 hours ago, Ran said:

It is the true story within the HBO canon. But George was also clear that the canon of the show is not the same as the canon of the books. There are innumerable differences between the two canons that cannot be reconicled, starting most simply with the shifting age of Alicent to make her a childhood best friend of Rhaenyra.

 

"Innumerable differences" is a huge exaggeration. 

 

[Winterfell is Burning]

3 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

It makes zero sense for Aegon V, the guy who was so against incest, to force Aerys and Rhaella to marry each other.
it also creates a bunch of other issues with any potential adaptation of Dunk and Egg/Aegon V"s rule.

Just change it to Aerys and Rhaella decided to get married themselves because of the prophecy. We know next to nothing about her, and would be in character for him to be serious about the prophecy for some time, then completely forget about it

[Raksha 2014]

9 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

It's all true and comes from reliable sources.

Iain Glen said in an interview that he had read the first book but then realized that D&D didn't want the actors to read the books, and whenever someone would mention the books, "their eyes would glaze over". And that's consistent with the other things we know, for instance that Ian McElhinney, who had read the books, wrote them a letter about why Barristan shouldn't be killed off as early and about the importance of his storyline in Meereen, and that 'made us want to kill him even more' (Benioff himself told that story, you can see it on video), or that Stephen Dilane said he wished he had read the books, because he could never understand what they were going for with Stannis based on the scripts.

Neil Marshall gave an interview several years ago about where he talked about directing 'Blackwater' and that there was an executive producer who described himself as in charge of the "pervert side of the audience' and insisted that he had to feature a naked woman sitting on Bronn's lap during the Bronn/Sandor argument, even when Marshall explained that this would only be distracting and wouldn't fit with the scene.

D&D themselves said that they wanted to make a show "that football players and soccer moms would enjoy" or however they put it, rather than what most people would expect of a fantasy show.

I was always annoyed by the same things you mention in GoT. There were so many times in HotD when I thought "oh thank god that Benioff and Weiss are not in charge of this show" and cringed at the thought of what they would've done. The brothel scenes, where they had opportunity to focus on the naked bodies of random women, as GoT did, but they did not do it. The makeout and sex scenes in 1x05, which were really well done, both the Rhaenyra scenes and the 'marital duty' Alicent and Viserys scene and their juxtaposition, and how they focused on the women's perspective. Everything with Laenor - D&D would've made him a stereotype and his sexuality a source of comedy, as they did with Loras. The scene where Aemond talks about his first sexual experience that Aegon made him have at the brothel aged barely 13 and being confronted by the brothel madame - instead of making it clear that it was an unpleasant and upsetting experience for him, D&D would've made it 'funny'. Evem the infamous feet scene - that would have been so much worse in GoT because they would have made that comedic too and sexualize Alicent and show it from Larys' POV.

"Blackwater" is probably my favorite episode of all of the GOT episodes; and I can't even remember Bronn and Sandor arguing.  I vaguely remember that they had words in the brothel and there was a naked woman on Bronn's lap ; and wondering why they were wasting my viewing time with this - the only good part of the brothel scene was the Lannister men singing "Rains of Castamere".  

I disliked the portrayal of Loras Tyrell.  I think that Renly was badly miscast; Renly was supposed to be a big strapping guy who looked a lot like the young Robert but was more of a social butterfly than a warrior, while the actor was physically forgettable.  And then Loras forgets about Renly a season or two after he's dead, no use of that heartbreaking line from the books "When the sun has set, no candle can replace it" to indicate his devotion to Renly even after Renly's death, no, he's bouncing on the sheets with that Olyvar from the brothel.  And then it's Loras who folds when the Sparrows imprison and persecute him; we don't get to see what they did; we're just left with the impression that gay Loras is a weakling while his sister Margaery is the strong sibling.  I hate to think what D&D would have done with Laenor Velaryon (I loved the portrayal of the young Laenor as a tough and skillful dragonrider and fighter).  

Actually, I did find the confrontation between Aemond and the brothel madame rather funny; only in that the the madame seems to remember him very kindly and have a liking for him.  It doesn't mean that the experience was in any way good for the boy Aemond; but I don't think that the brothel madame would have thought she was doing a 13-year-old royal prince any harm by sexually initiating him - that would be unthinkable now, but not in Westeros; and, given Aemond's nature, he would not have complained, because he was a royal prince and would not want to show his confusion and being upset.  (however, I could see Aemond beating up Aegon afterwards).  More than anything, the scene shows what a mess Aegon is; and what a sad dynamic these royal brothers have:  Aemond is all about duty and discipline and repressed rage; Aegon is all about insecurity and self-indulgence (in part to relieve those insecurities) which extends to rape of those who cannot refuse him as well as, probably, his sister-wife.  I don't think that Aemond would ever commit rape, though; sadly, we know he will commit other atrocities.

(I hate the way Ser Barristan was so ignobly killed off in GOT!!!!)

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Just change it to Aerys and Rhaella decided to get married themselves because of the prophecy. We know next to nothing about her, and would be in character for him to be serious about the prophecy for some time, then completely forget about it

Nah, that would make little sense.

Dunk & Egg would be utter morons if they ever considered that Aerys should succeed to the throne. It also would be pretty much distasteful to imagine that Egg was actually Aerys' dad and failed to turn him into a proper prince. If he was only his grandson and he was greatly occupied with the governance of the Realm, the many rebellions, and his own reforms and dragon dreams, etc. it makes sense to assume that he rarely, if ever, interacted with his grandson. Even more so if Jaehaerys and Shaera spend much time on Dragonstone or at Summerhall with their children.

In light of Egg's own biography, his issues with Aerion, his friendship with Dunk, there just is no chance that Aerys would have been included in the line of succession if Egg had had a good grasping of the boy's character. Which he would have had had he been his father. Even more so, if he had been his heir for years or decades.

But, of course, we should not delude ourselves into believing that Aerys II and Rhaella weren't the victims of their father's (somewhat) mad belief in prophecy. Folks constantly ignore the simple fact that only Aerys and/or Rhaella could have shown little Rhaegar that scroll about the promised prince, feeding him the idea that he was that guy. Nobody else would have. Jaehaerys II himself died merely two years after Rhaegar's death, for too early for the boy to be able to read, and Aemon was at the Wall.

It is all there - George doesn't spill it out explicitly in TWoIaF, but Aerys growing so mad over all his children dying is because it undermined the prophecy thing his father believed in. The dragon had three heads, so why the hell could he and Rhaella not produce the other two Rhaegar needed if he was the promised prince?

Of course, it would be Summerhall that caused all that. Aerys and Rhaella may not have believed in the prophecy earlier, they just submitted to their father's wishes regarding their own marriage, but then many of their family died at that fire, so there had to be some greater meaning to all that.

 

[Ran]

4 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

"Innumerable differences" is a huge exaggeration. 

Read innumerable as very large number, not an infinite one.

And if you don't think there's that much difference, start a list of differences and let's see for how long people can add additional ones that you've forgotten or never even realized.

[StarkTullies]

14 hours ago, Ran said:

It is the true story within the HBO canon. But George was also clear that the canon of the show is not the same as the canon of the books. There are innumerable differences between the two canons that cannot be reconicled, starting most simply with the shifting age of Alicent to make her a childhood best friend of Rhaenyra.

Okay, thanks.  I never specifically saw this supposed quote from George Martin, just people claiming that he said that everything that happens in the show is what "really" happened.  I can buy that for when the book says "it could have happened this way, or it could have happened that way", such as the reason why Criston turned against Rhaenyra, or who really burned down Harrenhal.  But other mysteries, such as why Laenor was killed, is a "this way or that" which doesn't make sense.  An unidentifiable burned body is different from countless public witnesses, and Laenor still being alive doesn't make sense at all; he can fool his parents, but he can't fool his dragon.

(As a related tangent, another major gripe I have with the show is Rhaenys believing that Rhaenyra murdered her son, and then siding with "her son's murderer" anyway.)

I agree with you about innumerable differences between the book and show, obviously.  Game of Thrones never claimed to be true to ASOIAF, but I was under the impression that HOTD is supposed to be much truer to F&B.  Comparing only the first season of the two shows, I think GOT was far better adapted than HOTD (but that all changed after Season 1 of GOT).

What I think is most bizarre about "HBO canon" is the whole "song of ice and fire" prophecy that keeps getting repeated again and again, mixed in with the catpaw's dagger.  Show canon is that Arya is "the prince who was promised", and she is definitely not a Targaryen.  It is very weird (and annoying) that they keep mixing what is maybe going to happen in ASOIAF with what did happen in GOT, and that's how separate canons get confused.  (Back to the original topic of things I like least about the show, repeatedly beating us over the head with the "song of ice and fire" prophesy tops that list.)

[Winterfell is Burning]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Nah, that would make little sense.

Dunk & Egg would be utter morons if they ever considered that Aerys should succeed to the throne. It also would be pretty much distasteful to imagine that Egg was actually Aerys' dad and failed to turn him into a proper prince. If he was only his grandson and he was greatly occupied with the governance of the Realm, the many rebellions, and his own reforms and dragon dreams, etc. it makes sense to assume that he rarely, if ever, interacted with his grandson. Even more so if Jaehaerys and Shaera spend much time on Dragonstone or at Summerhall with their children.

In light of Egg's own biography, his issues with Aerion, his friendship with Dunk, there just is no chance that Aerys would have been included in the line of succession if Egg had had a good grasping of the boy's character. Which he would have had had he been his father. Even more so, if he had been his heir for years or decades.

But, of course, we should not delude ourselves into believing that Aerys II and Rhaella weren't the victims of their father's (somewhat) mad belief in prophecy. Folks constantly ignore the simple fact that only Aerys and/or Rhaella could have shown little Rhaegar that scroll about the promised prince, feeding him the idea that he was that guy. Nobody else would have. Jaehaerys II himself died merely two years after Rhaegar's death, for too early for the boy to be able to read, and Aemon was at the Wall.

It is all there - George doesn't spill it out explicitly in TWoIaF, but Aerys growing so mad over all his children dying is because it undermined the prophecy thing his father believed in. The dragon had three heads, so why the hell could he and Rhaella not produce the other two Rhaegar needed if he was the promised prince?

Of course, it would be Summerhall that caused all that. Aerys and Rhaella may not have believed in the prophecy earlier, they just submitted to their father's wishes regarding their own marriage, but then many of their family died at that fire, so there had to be some greater meaning to all that.

 

The thing is that by the time Egg died, Aerys wasn't that young, and Egg knew he would be king one day, and probably not that much later, considering Jaeharys II's health. So he still failed at raising Aerys properly to be a King.

And considering the ages, you can easily change things to make Aerys the younger brother of Daeron, rather than the nephew. So he wasn't supposed to be king until much later. It fits perfectly his character be a third son no one expected to be king, least of all himself.

Aerys being broken because the prophecy his father believed so much, but he didn't, makes zero sense. If he was the one that believed it, to the point of marrying the sister he wasn't all that fond of (perhaps even leaving Joanna Lannister, whom he wanted to marry, for this), makes a lot more sense and adds an extra dimension to it.

There's also the fact besides the younger generation's ages making no sense, show Tywin is also much older. He's specially said to be 67 in the last season, which would make him old enough to be Egg's son, but not his grandson. Can't have him be 10 years older than Aerys.

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

The thing is that by the time Egg died, Aerys wasn't that young, and Egg knew he would be king one day, and probably not that much later, considering Jaeharys II's health. So he still failed at raising Aerys properly to be a King.

As I said, chances are good that King Aegon V didn't exactly spend all that much time with his grandson Aerys. Especially since the Targaryen family may have been larger than we know at this point prior to Summerhall: Duncan and Jenny could have had multiple children, too, and the children of Daella and Rhae could have been at court, too. The fact that Egg couldn't/didn't stop the wedding of Aerys and Rhaella also kind of implies that he wasn't particularly close to his grandchildren or else he may have interceded on their behalf.

But he would have spend time with Aerys if he had been his son. Even more so, if we imagine him as his heir or second in line to the throne. Before George had them restore Jaehaerys II, Aerys would likely have been a younger son of Egg, either Daeron's elder brother in place of Jaehaerys II, or a brother before or after Jaehaerys II if the show were to keep him Aerys' elder brother and possibly even as a childless king who was then succeeded by his younger brother.

But in any such scenario Aerys would have become ever more important - first as Duncan gave up his claim to the throne and then also after Daeron died in battle. By the time of Summerhall Aerys could have very well be the Heir Apparent in such a scenario.

I'd also not assume that Jaehaerys II's health indicated an early death. The king dies quite suddenly as per TWoIaF. It seems the guy was more suffering from a number of minor ailments which made his life difficult/unpleasant - kind of like Augustus was always sick yet lived a very long life - but would not necessarily cut his life short. His insistence to lead the Stepstones campaign himself as well as him accompanying him dad during the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion certainly indicates he had the stomach for war and knew what a prince/king had to do. It would not surprise if Jaehaerys II's death wasn't entirely natural - I'm not thinking poison necessarily (although that would certainly be possible - hello there, Pycelle) but perhaps him doing a spell to know more about the future which proved to be too much.

Sure enough, in a sense Aerys' problematic traits only really manifested themselves later in life, but we still would assume that Egg and Betha would have realized what he was in his early childhood if he had been their son.

5 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Aerys being broken because the prophecy his father believed so much, but he didn't, makes zero sense. If he was the one that believed it, to the point of marrying the sister he wasn't all that fond of (perhaps even leaving Joanna Lannister, whom he wanted to marry, for this), makes a lot more sense and adds an extra dimension to it.

It is a much better plot to have Aerys and Rhaella as victims of the prophecy - because they are forced into a loveless marriage, because they are singled out by prophecy as the promised couple whose union will (eventually) bring forth the savior, and because they also must continue the royal bloodline in the wake of Summerhall. I mean, reread the narrative of Aerys' reign. In the beginning all is well, the king and queen are young and eager and folks expect 'Aerys the Wise' will give the Realm a golden age. And then they fail to have more children and everything slowly turns to ash. The trouble of the children is the deciding factor for the decline of the Tywin-Aerys friendship (Aerys is jealous of the golden twins), the decline of his marriage (he blames Rhaella for their troubles), and his own mental health (whenever a child dies prematurely it triggers one of the mad episodes of the king). This only makes sense if children were a very great concern for Aerys - and that makes only sense in connection to the prophecy. He already had a healthy heir and spares in his Baratheon cousins.

Aerys wouldn't have broken the way he did if he had been his father, fervently believing into the dwarf woman's prophecy. Instead, the pressure he feels seems to go back to his elders forcing him (and Rhaella) to bear too much. Rhaegar, too, clearly suffers from that. These people tell a young boy that he is the savior of the world and must be a warrior because of some dusty scroll.

Aerys way out of all that is madness, it seems, while Lya is (sort of) Rhaegar's way out. Prophecy might also figure to a point into Rhaegar's actions, but (mad) love might be the more deciding factor there.

5 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

There's also the fact besides the younger generation's ages making no sense, show Tywin is also much older. He's specially said to be 67 in the last season, which would make him old enough to be Egg's son, but not his grandson. Can't have him be 10 years older than Aerys.

Don't we have the silly 'one season of GoT is one year' crap? As well as Robert's reign lasting much longer so Dany and Jon can be older when the show starts. Sure enough, it doesn't add up exactly, but that's no surprise with that weirdo show.

It seems clear that George really has stuff in store for Jaehaerys II and Shaera, and really doesn't like the idea that they don't exist in the show universe. And it may very well be that the Egg-Aerys link isn't exactly the main reason there, but more, perhaps, what Jaehaerys II does during the reign of his father and, perhaps, even before as a boy during the reign of Maekar. Bottom line is, the character seems to be more important than we know at this point.

[$erPounce]

I think House of the Dragon, despite some flaws, does many things better than Game of Thrones. For example:

• How female characters are portrayed: What David and Dan saw as "strong women" are characters who fully embrace "masculine" skills and simply abandon any vaguely feminine trait because they are considered worthless in the series. Less masculine women are seen as weak or stupid. I feel like there is not even room for empathy and emotions in general in D&D's vision. In short, both Rhaenyra and Alicent are handled far better than just about any female character in Game of Thrones.
• The portrayal of the setting, which is clearly closer to Martin's vision than was the case with GOT). HOTD also explores more the workings of feudalism and patriarchy.
• The sex scenes are a lot better.
• House of the Dragon has themes (though the showrunners aren't exactly subtle with them). For that reason, the TV series feels somewhat more cohesive than it did with GOT. They don't just go from plot point to plot point like a checklist you have to tick off: there is a focus on the bigger picture. 

The first season of Game of Thrones did better than HOTD in terms of characters, but that is largely due to the rock-solid material written by George R. R. Martin. Most of the show-exclusive scenes in GOT season 1 were also very good (though I have to admit that those from seasons 2-4 are not as good). For instance, what David and Dan did with some secondary characters like Osha and Viserys III I thought was very well done. The secondary characters in HOTD feel really underdeveloped (perhaps the many deleted scenes for HOTD would have changed that).

I do have to say that the source material that Ryan Condal adapts is not particularly detailed and extensive, so to compare the end result of HOTD with GOT might not be entirely fair. After all, Fire & Blood is little more than an outline in which many characters are pretty much blank slates. So for HOTD, the dialogue and characterisation had to be created almost from scratch, whereas for GOT, they had the opportunity to copy a lot literally from the books with minimal modifications. It is better to compare Ryan Condal's work with the show-exclusive GOT scenes.

The existence of timeskips in HOTD also creates challenges when writing the characters. Especially when doing a time skip of ten years (and later another of six years). That's practically a lifetime in storytelling. It is not easy to ensure that a character's off-screen evolution comes across as believable. GOT did not have these difficulties.

 

I also notice that House of the Dragon has some bad influences from Game of Thrones, such as focusing too much on "spectacle".  Examples include the excessive bloodshed, the plot-armour in the battle on the Stepstones and sticking to the traditional formula that the penultimate episode should end on a shocking twist or a big fight (the latter led to the nonsensical event of Rhaenys in the Dragonpit). That same approach D&D had for GOT was successful in creating hype and media exposure in general, there's no denying that. HBO is counting on these elements in the prequel to match the success of its predecessor. I had hoped that House of the Dragon would take more risks and have more of an identity of its own... But that would also mean that the TV series would be less appealing to the casual watcher.

Despite Game of Thrones' influences on House of the Dragon, it is also very different. Despite the fact that the TV series often deviates from Fire & Blood, I always have the impression that Ryan Condal succeeds much better than David and Dan in incorporating the spirit and soul of George's works into the show. It is noticeable that Condal is experimenting with concepts that clearly have their basis in the ASOIAF books. Game of Thrones at many points did not feel like a work of George's, probably because David and Dan have a fundamental misunderstanding of what ASOIAF is about.
 

[Annara Snow]

19 hours ago, Ran said:

Read innumerable as very large number, not an infinite one.

And if you don't think there's that much difference, start a list of differences and let's see for how long people can add additional ones that you've forgotten or never even realized.

If you want, you can start a thread listing the differences 

I'm mildly curious to see how many are real changes such as Alicent's and Rhaenyra's ages or Joffrey being killed at the wedding feast vs the tourney, and how many would be things like: "This character reportedly said this quote ..." or "This happened in a dragon fight/private conversation/secret council meeting with no witnesses" or "the version of this event on the show is a mix of the two completelt versions of the truth from the book but is different from both and somewhere in between" etc., bit not enough to start a thread about it myself.

 

[Winterfell is Burning]

On 12/11/2022 at 3:28 PM, Lord Varys said:

As I said, chances are good that King Aegon V didn't exactly spend all that much time with his grandson Aerys. Especially since the Targaryen family may have been larger than we know at this point prior to Summerhall: Duncan and Jenny could have had multiple children, too, and the children of Daella and Rhae could have been at court, too. The fact that Egg couldn't/didn't stop the wedding of Aerys and Rhaella also kind of implies that he wasn't particularly close to his grandchildren or else he may have interceded on their behalf.

But he would have spend time with Aerys if he had been his son. Even more so, if we imagine him as his heir or second in line to the throne. Before George had them restore Jaehaerys II, Aerys would likely have been a younger son of Egg, either Daeron's elder brother in place of Jaehaerys II, or a brother before or after Jaehaerys II if the show were to keep him Aerys' elder brother and possibly even as a childless king who was then succeeded by his younger brother.

But in any such scenario Aerys would have become ever more important - first as Duncan gave up his claim to the throne and then also after Daeron died in battle. By the time of Summerhall Aerys could have very well be the Heir Apparent in such a scenario.

I'd also not assume that Jaehaerys II's health indicated an early death. The king dies quite suddenly as per TWoIaF. It seems the guy was more suffering from a number of minor ailments which made his life difficult/unpleasant - kind of like Augustus was always sick yet lived a very long life - but would not necessarily cut his life short. His insistence to lead the Stepstones campaign himself as well as him accompanying him dad during the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion certainly indicates he had the stomach for war and knew what a prince/king had to do. It would not surprise if Jaehaerys II's death wasn't entirely natural - I'm not thinking poison necessarily (although that would certainly be possible - hello there, Pycelle) but perhaps him doing a spell to know more about the future which proved to be too much.

Sure enough, in a sense Aerys' problematic traits only really manifested themselves later in life, but we still would assume that Egg and Betha would have realized what he was in his early childhood if he had been their son.

It is a much better plot to have Aerys and Rhaella as victims of the prophecy - because they are forced into a loveless marriage, because they are singled out by prophecy as the promised couple whose union will (eventually) bring forth the savior, and because they also must continue the royal bloodline in the wake of Summerhall. I mean, reread the narrative of Aerys' reign. In the beginning all is well, the king and queen are young and eager and folks expect 'Aerys the Wise' will give the Realm a golden age. And then they fail to have more children and everything slowly turns to ash. The trouble of the children is the deciding factor for the decline of the Tywin-Aerys friendship (Aerys is jealous of the golden twins), the decline of his marriage (he blames Rhaella for their troubles), and his own mental health (whenever a child dies prematurely it triggers one of the mad episodes of the king). This only makes sense if children were a very great concern for Aerys - and that makes only sense in connection to the prophecy. He already had a healthy heir and spares in his Baratheon cousins.

Aerys wouldn't have broken the way he did if he had been his father, fervently believing into the dwarf woman's prophecy. Instead, the pressure he feels seems to go back to his elders forcing him (and Rhaella) to bear too much. Rhaegar, too, clearly suffers from that. These people tell a young boy that he is the savior of the world and must be a warrior because of some dusty scroll.

Aerys way out of all that is madness, it seems, while Lya is (sort of) Rhaegar's way out. Prophecy might also figure to a point into Rhaegar's actions, but (mad) love might be the more deciding factor there.

Don't we have the silly 'one season of GoT is one year' crap? As well as Robert's reign lasting much longer so Dany and Jon can be older when the show starts. Sure enough, it doesn't add up exactly, but that's no surprise with that weirdo show.

It seems clear that George really has stuff in store for Jaehaerys II and Shaera, and really doesn't like the idea that they don't exist in the show universe. And it may very well be that the Egg-Aerys link isn't exactly the main reason there, but more, perhaps, what Jaehaerys II does during the reign of his father and, perhaps, even before as a boy during the reign of Maekar. Bottom line is, the character seems to be more important than we know at this point.

All this assumes just because someone is a good father, their kids will turn out alright, when we just know it's not the case- lots of real life assholes become that way despite having perfectly good parents and family lives. And that's without Targaryen inbreeding kicking in. Besides, Aerys seems to have gotten progressively madder with time.

Also, I still maintain Aerys himself believing in prophecies, then being broken when turns out to not be the case, makes a lot more sense than him being broken because of some prophecy he didn't believe turned out to be false. 

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

All this assumes just because someone is a good father, their kids will turn out alright, when we just know it's not the case- lots of real life assholes become that way despite having perfectly good parents and family lives. And that's without Targaryen inbreeding kicking in. Besides, Aerys seems to have gotten progressively madder with time.

It seems clear, though, that the author's intention isn't for the Mad King to be the son of Aegon the Unlikely. And, again, in the book context it makes little to no sense to assume that Dunk & Egg of all people would miss or ignore the warning signs in Aerys' character/mental health. Not just because their firsthand experiences with Aerion Brightflame but also because of Prince Rhaegel and Princess Aelora (who apparently also went mad). There were quite a few Targaryen nutcases during their lives, and no responsible king would have wanted to hand the throne to a guy who would most likely fuck things up.

2 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Also, I still maintain Aerys himself believing in prophecies, then being broken when turns out to not be the case, makes a lot more sense than him being broken because of some prophecy he didn't believe turned out to be false. 

Not saying he didn't believe in, just that it makes more sense to have him and Rhaella being pushed into a marriage by their father. I'm sure they both believed in the prophecy to a point - or wanted to believe in it. If they hadn't, nobody would have ever fed Rhaegar the idea that he was special, nor would anyone have shown him the ancient prophecy.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

On 12/13/2022 at 4:40 PM, Lord Varys said:

Not saying he didn't believe in, just that it makes more sense to have him and Rhaella being pushed into a marriage by their father.

I do wonder if Aegon V would have made the same decision if he was the one who got the visit from the Woods Witch.

[Lord Varys]

37 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I do wonder if Aegon V would have made the same decision if he was the one who got the visit from the Woods Witch.

Well, the dwarf woman lived at court. Aegon V would have learned about the prophecy, too. It was just Jaehaerys II who fervently believed in in for some reason.

TWoIaF's account indicates that Egg thought he himself could bring the dragons back, so the promised prince wouldn't have been his most important concern unless he thought he himself was the guy.

Whilst Rhaegar's birth at Summerhall was apparently also a cause for celebration and happiness, it seems that only the tragedy as such - the smoke of the fire and the salt of the tears of the grieving survivors - convinced the remaining Targaryens that the infant was the promised prince. Aerys and Rhaella married in the late 250s, at a time when Aegon V was already very obsessed with dragons and prophecies, so him not being eager to marry his grandchildren to each other despite a new prophecy being made kind of implies the promised prince wasn't his biggest concern.

At this point we know too little about Jaehaerys II, but my guess is that he chose to believe that, and the others were (eventually) convinced by him (Aemon, Aerys, Rhaella, eventually Rhaegar through his elders). Jaehaerys lost his father, possibly his mother, too, his elder brother, his sister-in-law, possibly some cousins and other relations in the fire. He would have had every reason to make this tragedy make sense.