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The Dragon, North Star, Northern Dawn, and musing on Jon and Dany.


AlaskanSandman

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1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

This is not going to come true, and there's not really any evidence for it, but what if Gerold Dayne is actually Arthur Dayne? If Gerold is linked to the evening star, as a 'dark' Dayne associated with the night, Ser Arthur would be associated with the Morning Star. But the Morning Star and the Evening Star are the same thing - the planet Venus.

Not true, there are 3 morning stars, and only one evening star.

Venus is both a morning star and the eveningstar.

Rigel and Sirius are both "Morning stars" tied to the Hunter "orion" constellation. Rigel is Orions foot, while Sirius is the Dog Star found in Canis Minor. One of the two hounds that accompany the Hunter (Sound familiar within Asoiaf)

And whats not going to come true? A connection between Gerald and House Tarth? A lil too early to say yes or no for sure imo but the clue suggest some association between them.

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1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Not true, there are 3 morning stars, and only one evening star.

Venus is both a morning star and the eveningstar.

Yes, Venus is a morning star and the Evening Star. So the person who is the Evening Star could also be one of the morning stars (sorry I did not explain properly). Interesting that there are 3...

There were the Greek Gods Hesperus and Phosphorus, the Evening Star and (one of) the Morning Star. They were half brothers and their mother was Eos, dawn.

3 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And whats not going to come true? A connection between Gerald and House Tarth? A lil too early to say yes or no for sure imo but the clue suggest some association between them.

I meant my speculation that Gerold = Arthur which is not going to happen (99% certain).

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14 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes, Venus is a morning star and the Evening Star. So the person who is the Evening Star could also be one of the morning stars (sorry I did not explain properly). Interesting that there are 3...

There were the Greek Gods Hesperus and Phosphorus, the Evening Star and (one of) the Morning Star. They were half brothers and their mother was Eos, dawn.

I meant my speculation that Gerold = Arthur which is not going to happen (99% certain).

Kinda it was Venus/Aphrodite.

Phosphorus (Lucifer) was cast down from his high position (Perhaps during the Olympian war with the Titans?), presumably replaced by Aphrodite.

Aphrodite was the 13th generation, and child of Zeus through Cronos and Uranus.

Eosphorus/Phosphorus was the 13th generation, and child of Eos through Hyperion, another child of Uranus.

Iapetus was linked to Japheth (יֶפֶת) one of the sons of Noah and a progenitor of mankind in biblical accounts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapetus

Deucalion who survived the flood was also the 13th generation, son of Prometheus who stole fire (Grey King?), who was son of Iapetus, who was himself a son of Uranus (Ouranos in Greek, Uranus in Latin).

If Iapetus is Japheth, then that makes Uranus, Noah. The 10th member after Adam and Eve. (See why Aphrodite and Eosphorus are the 13th and now you're thinking of the Bloodstone Emperor usurping the Amethyst Empress.)

Eosphorus in Gothic is Auzandil. Notice the S turns to a Z and the R turns to a D?

Remember Ouranos? Change the R to a D, and the S to a Z. And you're just about at Wodanaz, the All-Father. Who in norse is Odin. 

(Zeus is cognate to Tyr in Norse)

The two originators of the Golden Empire ate of the Two Trees in the Garden of Eden

 

 

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

The boy looked at the bowl uncertainly. "What is it?"
"A paste of weirwood seeds."
Something about the look of it made Bran feel ill. The red veins were only weirwood sap, he supposed, but in the torchlight they looked remarkably like blood. He dipped the spoon into the paste, then hesitated. "Will this make me a greenseer?"

 

 
 
And caught that there were three Morning Stars?
 
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A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV
"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.
"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

 

 

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^ the above would explain on a theological level why Eosphorus (Jesus/ Lucifer/ Earendel/ Aurvandil - Christianity) would be against Zeus (Tyr) and Ouranos (Odin) as the Olympians fought the Titans, and the Aesir fought the Vanir (Aurvandil is of the Vanir)

The Aesir, and the One Handed Tyr can be found in Celtic Tuatha De Danann (Aos Si -Aesir) god, Nuada Airgetlám of the Silver Hand.

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Something worth mentioning is the Wormwood Star

A star that falls into water and poisons them. 

This brings to mind Asshai, but also the weirwood root going through Bloodraven's eye like a worm.

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“The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water— the name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter” Revelation 8:10-11.

 

 

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

The sight of him still frightened Bran—the weirwood roots snaking in and out of his withered flesh, the mushrooms sprouting from his cheeks, the white wooden worm that grew from the socket where one eye had been. He liked it better when the torches were put out. In the dark he could pretend that it was the three-eyed crow who whispered to him and not some grisly talking corpse.

 

 
 
This is something that makes me feel like Bloodraven, Bran, Jon and Arya are all possibly evil. As the Wormwood is associated with Revelations and the End of Days. Like the Long Night maybe?
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On 11/13/2022 at 2:09 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

Not true, there are 3 morning stars, and only one evening star.

Venus is both a morning star and the eveningstar.

It seems the author wants readers to consider Venus. Besides the morning and eveningstar symbolism in the books that correspond to Venus, there is also the uniqueness of Venus's orbit which forms a pentagram or five-pointed star. The Faith has the most prominent star in the series - the seven-pointed star, so it might be worth investigating that in this discussion of stars. 

According to the Faith:

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The Faith taught that the Seven themselves had once walked the hills of Andalos in human form. “The Father reached his hand into the heavens and pulled down seven stars,” Tyrion recited from memory, “and one by one he set them on the brow of Hugor of the Hill to make a glowing crown.” 

So the seven faces of God that form one once walked the earth and they are represented by seven stars that crown a king. In the text, there are indeed seven stars worth mentioning and we can attempt to map them to characters and the seven faces of the god of the faith:

 

Morning Star - Sword of the Morning, Dawn, dawn, sunrise - the Smith

Evening Star - Sword of the Evening, Evenstar, sunset, Brienne - the Maiden / Darkstar Gerold

Nymeria's Star - shining in a milky band representing her 10,000 ships - the Mother (milky, Mother Rhoyne)

Tywin's Star - Cersei thinks of this after his death - as a fallen Star. - the Father

Khal Drogo's Star - the Star Khal Drogo turns into upon ascension into the heavens - the Warrior

North Star - in the eye of the Ice Dragon constellation / some say the eye of the rider - the Crone

The Bleeding Star - the comet - the Stranger from far places. 

 

I hope the reasoning behind the allocation is transparent. Anyway, the model might be helpful in figuring out other aspects of the story. Take for example, the Morning Star, associated with the Sword of the Morning and Dawn. I chose the Smith because Dawn was forged in the heart of a fallen star. 

The Faith revers also seven wanderers which may be planets. The Red Wanderer is sacred to their Smith which may be hinting at the morning star and associated aspects. The wildlings however name the red wanderer the "Thief" and believe a good time to steal a woman is when the the Thief is in the constellation called the Moonmaid. In terms of the backstory, this perhaps tells us that the first Dayne who forged Dawn was in fact a thief who stole a "moon maiden," making him a "Bael" figure. The moon in turn is a kind of "evening star" and may be a reference to that. 

When Sansa is at the Eyrie building her snow castle, dawn steals into the garden like a thief. 

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Dawn stole into her garden like a thief. The grey of the sky grew lighter still, and the trees and shrubs turned a dark green beneath their stoles of snow.

The Eyrie has plenty of moon imagery. Lysa wears moonstone jewelry. Sansa used to wear moonstones,  given to her by Joffery. Sansa also has sunset imagery, especially her hair, from the song lyrics: "I loved a maid as red as autumn, with sunset in her hair." She's a bit of an "evening star maiden" here.
Then Petyr Baelish enters the stage and steals a kiss from her. Of course he also arranged to have her "stolen" from King's Landing. As dawn steals into her garden like a thief, so does LF. 

So perhaps when Bael characters steal moonmaidens or sunset girls, this facilitates bringing back the Dawn. 

 

I have not really progressed that far with the rest except to consider the 7 stars as a whole. The other train of thought would be that these seven aspects must come together to form a whole (like Hugor's crown), or come together in one person essential to the end game. Someone like the prince that was promised. One or more of these aspects may be particularly elusive (like the Stranger from far places), like the 7th of Rhaegar's rubies that the brothers on the Quiet Isle are waiting for. 

This is just my perspective, open to changes or contributions you may have.

 

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9 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Could this have something to do with Pentos?

Maybe, though I have not searched for star imagery there. Penthos (Greek) was the personification of grief and sadness and said to favour those who wept for the dead. Grief and the absence of it is another motif in the books (Alyssa's tears, dragon's do not weep, Lady Stoneheart, etc.), so it could also find its place on the seven pointed star - in this case, the Mother. 

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34 minutes ago, Evolett said:

Maybe, though I have not searched for star imagery there. Penthos (Greek) was the personification of grief and sadness and said to favour those who wept for the dead. Grief and the absence of it is another motif in the books (Alyssa's tears, dragon's do not weep, Lady Stoneheart, etc.), so it could also find its place on the seven pointed star - in this case, the Mother. 

I had a theory that Pentos was originally an Andal city and possibly the fifth one, there would have been seven cities for the seven gods. This is a good connection with the Mother and Pentos. I might go back and add it, if you don't mind.

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19 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I had a theory that Pentos was originally an Andal city and possibly the fifth one, there would have been seven cities for the seven gods. This is a good connection with the Mother and Pentos. I might go back and add it, if you don't mind.

Sure, go ahead :)

 

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10 hours ago, Evolett said:

It seems the author wants readers to consider Venus. Besides the morning and eveningstar symbolism in the books that correspond to Venus, there is also the uniqueness of Venus's orbit which forms a pentagram or five-pointed star. The Faith has the most prominent star in the series - the seven-pointed star, so it might be worth investigating that in this discussion of stars. 

According to the Faith:

So the seven faces of God that form one once walked the earth and they are represented by seven stars that crown a king. In the text, there are indeed seven stars worth mentioning and we can attempt to map them to characters and the seven faces of the god of the faith:

 

Morning Star - Sword of the Morning, Dawn, dawn, sunrise - the Smith

Evening Star - Sword of the Evening, Evenstar, sunset, Brienne - the Maiden / Darkstar Gerold

Nymeria's Star - shining in a milky band representing her 10,000 ships - the Mother (milky, Mother Rhoyne)

Tywin's Star - Cersei thinks of this after his death - as a fallen Star. - the Father

Khal Drogo's Star - the Star Khal Drogo turns into upon ascension into the heavens - the Warrior

North Star - in the eye of the Ice Dragon constellation / some say the eye of the rider - the Crone

The Bleeding Star - the comet - the Stranger from far places. 

 

I hope the reasoning behind the allocation is transparent. Anyway, the model might be helpful in figuring out other aspects of the story. Take for example, the Morning Star, associated with the Sword of the Morning and Dawn. I chose the Smith because Dawn was forged in the heart of a fallen star. 

The Faith revers also seven wanderers which may be planets. The Red Wanderer is sacred to their Smith which may be hinting at the morning star and associated aspects. The wildlings however name the red wanderer the "Thief" and believe a good time to steal a woman is when the the Thief is in the constellation called the Moonmaid. In terms of the backstory, this perhaps tells us that the first Dayne who forged Dawn was in fact a thief who stole a "moon maiden," making him a "Bael" figure. The moon in turn is a kind of "evening star" and may be a reference to that. 

When Sansa is at the Eyrie building her snow castle, dawn steals into the garden like a thief. 

The Eyrie has plenty of moon imagery. Lysa wears moonstone jewelry. Sansa used to wear moonstones,  given to her by Joffery. Sansa also has sunset imagery, especially her hair, from the song lyrics: "I loved a maid as red as autumn, with sunset in her hair." She's a bit of an "evening star maiden" here.
Then Petyr Baelish enters the stage and steals a kiss from her. Of course he also arranged to have her "stolen" from King's Landing. As dawn steals into her garden like a thief, so does LF. 

So perhaps when Bael characters steal moonmaidens or sunset girls, this facilitates bringing back the Dawn. 

 

I have not really progressed that far with the rest except to consider the 7 stars as a whole. The other train of thought would be that these seven aspects must come together to form a whole (like Hugor's crown), or come together in one person essential to the end game. Someone like the prince that was promised. One or more of these aspects may be particularly elusive (like the Stranger from far places), like the 7th of Rhaegar's rubies that the brothers on the Quiet Isle are waiting for. 

This is just my perspective, open to changes or contributions you may have.

 

The Hunter and his Hound that make up the two morning stars Rigel and Sirius are way too much like the "Last Hero" and Jon to be ignored for me

 

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On 11/14/2022 at 4:18 PM, Evolett said:

I have not really progressed that far with the rest except to consider the 7 stars as a whole. The other train of thought would be that these seven aspects must come together to form a whole

I had a look at Wikipedia. In our skies, the asterism Ursa Minor is composed of seven stars, which were also referred to a the seven oxen. Some of the Latin naming is interesting:

Quote

Because Ursa Minor consists of seven stars, the Latin word for "north" (i.e., where Polaris points) is septentrio, from septem (seven) and triones (oxen), from seven oxen driving a plough, which the seven stars also resemble. This name has also been attached to the main stars of Ursa Major.

Septentrio puts me in mind of the Faith of the Seven, where their 7 is a parallel to Christianity's Holy Trinity. Instead of a trio, they have a 'septen trio'. It also reminds me of the Tower of Joy scene, with seven against three.

 There is also strong Dany symbolism represented in Ursa Major, or the Great Bear, as it represents two of her main guardian figures: Jorah Mormont (of Bear Island) and William Darry (whose sigil is a plowman - The Plow is another name for the Great Bear). Interestingly, Ursa Minor (the Little Bear) used to be part of the constellation Draco  - one of its wings, in fact - but in later times came to be its own asterism. So a bear is a metaphorical dragon's wing. 

But my favourite tidbit from the naming history of Ursa Major? One old Irish name for the Great Bear was:

drag-blod which means "fire trail"

Drag-blod. Blood of the dragon. Fire trail - comet? 

It seems that GRRM is somehow encoding many clues for ASOIAF within constellations. We need to do a proper thread on these connections I think.

With regard to the Ice Dragon and the ASOAIF 'North Star' ... I think the most significant aspect is that below the Wall it is the rider's eye which contain the star, but for the Free Folk it is the eye of the dragon itself, implying from the author that a dragon and its rider are in some sense one and the same, which we have seen with all the recent posts on dragon bonds and soul-binding.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

I had a look at Wikipedia. In our skies, the asterism Ursa Minor is composed of seven stars, which were also referred to a the seven oxen. Some of the Latin naming is interesting:

Septentrio puts me in mind of the Faith of the Seven, where their 7 is a parallel to Christianity's Holy Trinity. Instead of a trio, they have a 'septen trio'. It also reminds me of the Tower of Joy scene, with seven against three.

 There is also strong Dany symbolism represented in Ursa Major, or the Great Bear, as it represents two of her main guardian figures: Jorah Mormont (of Bear Island) and William Darry (whose sigil is a plowman - The Plow is another name for the Great Bear). Interestingly, Ursa Minor (the Little Bear) used to be part of the constellation Draco  - one of its wings, in fact - but in later times came to be its own asterism. So a bear is a metaphorical dragon's wing. 

But my favourite tidbit from the naming history of Ursa Major? One old Irish name for the Great Bear was:

drag-blod which means "fire trail"

Drag-blod. Blood of the dragon. Fire trail - comet? 

It seems that GRRM is somehow encoding many clues for ASOIAF within constellations. We need to do a proper thread on these connections I think.

With regard to the Ice Dragon and the ASOAIF 'North Star' ... I think the most significant aspect is that below the Wall it is the rider's eye which contain the star, but for the Free Folk it is the eye of the dragon itself, implying from the author that a dragon and its rider are in some sense one and the same, which we have seen with all the recent posts on dragon bonds and soul-binding.

 

 

The Dragon Constellation Ursa Minor, with the North Star Polaris

The Bear Constellation Ursa Major in the North pointing to Ursa Minor.  https://imengine.public.prod.sci.navigacloud.com/?uuid=df578897-84ca-5a7a-8cda-8c22aa545502&type=preview&width=3000&height=3000&q=60 

This is how you find the North Star in Alaska if you don't know where to look.

The Hunter Constellation Orion, bearing the Morning Star Rigel that is associated with Aurvandil/ Earendel- Christ/Lucifer. The Fallen Morninstar. (Why Dany is Venus/Aphrodite, and Jon is the Hunter with his Hound.) 

The Canis Minor constellation with the Morning Star Sirius that accompanies the Hunter. (The Last Hero, Jon Snow)

 

There is more than GRRM is mixing in though. As the Bloodstone Emperor is the Hunter with the Hound who betrays his sister the Amethyst Empress. Both are part of the 13th members of the Golden Empire. This is actually what Eosphorus, son of Eos and Aphrodite, daughter of Zeus are. They are the 13th members. As Iapetus the Titan is linked with Japheth, son of Noah. Noah being the 10th generation of Adam and Eve's family. Thus making Iapetus and Cronos the 11th. Eos and Zeus are the 12th, with Eosphorus and Aphrodite being the 13th. 

 Iapetus was linked to Japheth (יֶפֶת) one of the sons of Noah and a progenitor of mankind in biblical accounts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapetus

This is a thought process associated with the Greeks with the most famous pagan religion, and the First European Christians who produced the first Bible. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretatio_graeca

Really they were just catching on to the Proto Indo European Culture that predated them and bound them all. Something we know more about today than they did then.

 

So, as Zeus and Lucifer and all them are part of Adam and Eves family, this puts the Greenman as the Older God, and associated with the Two Trees in the Garden of Eden. (The Red and Blue Trees in Asoiaf.). This ties in flower and herb names like Joquil, Florian, Maris, The Winter Rose, and Valerian Herbs (Which ties nicely into the Valir people of Norse mythology ruled by Kjarr (Caesar) who lived in Valland (Rome or Roman Gaul). Making the Valyrians the Romans of Asoiaf. The Last hero likely being a Valyrian, like how King Arthur is said to have been a Roman soldier who stayed behind after Rome left England. The Wall being Hadrians wall in the Old North (Yr Hen Ogledd). Arthur meaning Bear, and his father being the Head Dragon. Being a Roman, he's traveled North, making him the "Last Hero" of sorts. 

Aurora Borealis meaning Northern Dawn and tying Hyperborea and Apollo's Garden into things (maiden theft story with girl turning into an evergreen laurel tree)

Its through these myths that I draw a lot of my thoughts on the plot, and who is who within Asoiaf. 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

I had a look at Wikipedia. In our skies, the asterism Ursa Minor is composed of seven stars, which were also referred to a the seven oxen. Some of the Latin naming is interesting:

Quote

Because Ursa Minor consists of seven stars, the Latin word for "north" (i.e., where Polaris points) is septentrio, from septem (seven) and triones (oxen), from seven oxen driving a plough, which the seven stars also resemble. This name has also been attached to the main stars of Ursa Major.

Septentrio puts me in mind of the Faith of the Seven, where their 7 is a parallel to Christianity's Holy Trinity. Instead of a trio, they have a 'septen trio'. It also reminds me of the Tower of Joy scene, with seven against three.

This is super relevant in respect of the seven-pointed-star. Where I live, Ursa Major and Minor are referred to as the Big Wagon and Little Wagon and I think GRMM has attached meaning to all of names of the constellations - the bear, the plough /plow, wagon and oxen. They are all connected. This find also clarifies the symbolic relationship between bears and oxen /bulls for me, something I've been puzzling over. 

 

7 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

 There is also strong Dany symbolism represented in Ursa Major, or the Great Bear, as it represents two of her main guardian figures: Jorah Mormont (of Bear Island) and William Darry (whose sigil is a plowman - The Plow is another name for the Great Bear).

It's notable that a number of important characters have "bears" as companions. In addition to Dany there is Jon with LC Mormont, Robb with Darcy Mormont as personal guard, Arya had Yoren, whom she thinks of as a black bear. Sansa is a "bear cub" and my guess is her current "bear" is Lothar Brune. Asha has Alysanne Mormont. Note that Dany had a loyal bear (Willam Darry) and one who betrayed her (Jorah). The Wagon is very relevant to Viserys who became the "Cart King" on the Dothraki Sea, and to the Masters of Slavers Bay and nobles of Volantis who prefer to ride in palanquins. 

As @AlaskanSandman pointed out earlier, the name Arthur has its root in Arktos, meaning bear. Interestingly, there is an Artos Stark in the Stark family tree. Arctic comes from Arktos, the realm of the Greek God Boreas, god of the North Wind and name giver to the Bora north winds I've already mentioned in another thread, where I linked Bora to Bara in Baratheon. The Arctic was named because of the two bear constellations. 

 

On 11/15/2022 at 3:38 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

The Hunter and his Hound that make up the two morning stars Rigel and Sirius are way too much like the "Last Hero" and Jon to be ignored for me

I never suggested you ignore those morning stars to focus  only on venus. There is probably a reason why three symoblic morning stars are recognizable - Venus, Rigel and Sirius - and perhaps we are to distinguish between them based on their individual differences. There's the symbolism of the fallen angel, the dying and rising god and of course Sirius and the flooding of the Nile, key to fertility, agriculture and prosperity, also a theme in the books. Then there's the Orion hunter and Sirius/dog connection as you say.

I can see the last hero reference but if the author is using this symbol, am not entirely comfortable with Jon as this particular morning star. The hound or dog motif is attached to very distinct characters - Ramsay and Sandor, Cleganes generally because of their dog sigil. Joffery also, who is protected by the Hound, unlike Jon and the others associated with bears and Jon in particular with a wolf. As of now, Jon also isn't much of a hunter, at least I don't recall him going on any significant hunts. But that can change. Neither is Sandor (unless searching for Mycah counts as a hunt), but Ramsay certainly is. If we're supposed to link Orion and his dogs to the last hero, Ramsay seems unlikely but Sandor in his role as a Hound, is at least imaginable. Perhaps in a protective role to whoever is the actual last hero, which could be Jon. 

To get back to actual close star and dog symbolism in the books, there is Septon Meribald with his dog, leading Brienne and company through dangerous quicksands. Might be worthwhile taking a closer look at those chapters. 

 

7 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

But my favourite tidbit from the naming history of Ursa Major? One old Irish name for the Great Bear was:

drag-blod which means "fire trail"

Drag-blod. Blood of the dragon. Fire trail - comet? 

When Dany first sights the comet, she thinks of it as the "dragon's tail," which had me visualizing a bodyless dragon flying through the heavens. Fire trail, fire tail, yes. And the comet does lead them through the very hot Red Waste, they follow its "trail" and "tail." And to round it off, this does suggest that "bear characters" are dragon-blooded. 

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1 hour ago, Evolett said:

They are all connected. This find also clarifies the symbolic relationship between bears and oxen /bulls for me, something I've been puzzling over. 

Do some research into how constellation names have changed and merged and you'll find lots of stuff.

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1) an archaic interpretation of Ursa Major was that of a cow, forming a group with Boötes as herdsman, and Ursa Minor as a dog.

2) Linguistically [in ancient times] there was little difference to the oxen, sus, and the bear, ursus.

Where it gets really interesting is when we start to include symbolism of nymphs, as I think dryads and other types of 'nature spirits' tied to weir woods, etc, may play a big part in the mythology of the COTF and even other parts of GRRM's world:

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The ancient name of the constellation is Cynosura (Greek Κυνοσούρα "dog's tail"). The origin of this name is unclear (Ursa Minor being a "dog's tail" would imply that another constellation nearby is "the dog", but no such constellation is known).[10] Instead, the mythographic tradition of Catasterismi makes Cynosura the name of an Oread nymph described as a nurse of Zeus

Dany and her 3 handmaidens have very 'nymph-like' qualities, with all the bathing and dressing and flying around on her "silver" (silva = forest in Latin), and Doreah is practically an anagram of OREAD.

Re: this point

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And to round it off, this does suggest that "bear characters" are dragon-blooded. 

Jorah says that Dany looks like his wife Lynesse, a bear by marriage, so yes - bears/dragons have a strong symbolic connection in ASOIAF. 

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11 hours ago, Evolett said:

This is super relevant in respect of the seven-pointed-star. Where I live, Ursa Major and Minor are referred to as the Big Wagon and Little Wagon and I think GRMM has attached meaning to all of names of the constellations - the bear, the plough /plow, wagon and oxen. They are all connected. This find also clarifies the symbolic relationship between bears and oxen /bulls for me, something I've been puzzling over. 

 

It's notable that a number of important characters have "bears" as companions. In addition to Dany there is Jon with LC Mormont, Robb with Darcy Mormont as personal guard, Arya had Yoren, whom she thinks of as a black bear. Sansa is a "bear cub" and my guess is her current "bear" is Lothar Brune. Asha has Alysanne Mormont. Note that Dany had a loyal bear (Willam Darry) and one who betrayed her (Jorah). The Wagon is very relevant to Viserys who became the "Cart King" on the Dothraki Sea, and to the Masters of Slavers Bay and nobles of Volantis who prefer to ride in palanquins. 

As @AlaskanSandman pointed out earlier, the name Arthur has its root in Arktos, meaning bear. Interestingly, there is an Artos Stark in the Stark family tree. Arctic comes from Arktos, the realm of the Greek God Boreas, god of the North Wind and name giver to the Bora north winds I've already mentioned in another thread, where I linked Bora to Bara in Baratheon. The Arctic was named because of the two bear constellations. 

 

I never suggested you ignore those morning stars to focus  only on venus. There is probably a reason why three symoblic morning stars are recognizable - Venus, Rigel and Sirius - and perhaps we are to distinguish between them based on their individual differences. There's the symbolism of the fallen angel, the dying and rising god and of course Sirius and the flooding of the Nile, key to fertility, agriculture and prosperity, also a theme in the books. Then there's the Orion hunter and Sirius/dog connection as you say.

I can see the last hero reference but if the author is using this symbol, am not entirely comfortable with Jon as this particular morning star. The hound or dog motif is attached to very distinct characters - Ramsay and Sandor, Cleganes generally because of their dog sigil. Joffery also, who is protected by the Hound, unlike Jon and the others associated with bears and Jon in particular with a wolf. As of now, Jon also isn't much of a hunter, at least I don't recall him going on any significant hunts. But that can change. Neither is Sandor (unless searching for Mycah counts as a hunt), but Ramsay certainly is. If we're supposed to link Orion and his dogs to the last hero, Ramsay seems unlikely but Sandor in his role as a Hound, is at least imaginable. Perhaps in a protective role to whoever is the actual last hero, which could be Jon. 

To get back to actual close star and dog symbolism in the books, there is Septon Meribald with his dog, leading Brienne and company through dangerous quicksands. Might be worthwhile taking a closer look at those chapters. 

 

When Dany first sights the comet, she thinks of it as the "dragon's tail," which had me visualizing a bodyless dragon flying through the heavens. Fire trail, fire tail, yes. And the comet does lead them through the very hot Red Waste, they follow its "trail" and "tail." And to round it off, this does suggest that "bear characters" are dragon-blooded. 

I get where you're coming from an Sandor Clegane def popped up in my head, but he has no hound and no famous sword, neither does Ramsey. This lead me to not think of either of them as the morning star figure, but I could be wrong. There is a lot of great symbolism and connections you guys have added to this all. A lot of stuff to consider. A lot of strong connections for House Mormont and House Dayne to both Dany and Jon. 

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On 11/14/2022 at 3:30 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

Something worth mentioning is the Wormwood Star

A star that falls into water and poisons them. 

This brings to mind Asshai, but also the weirwood root going through Bloodraven's eye like a worm.

Also the "poison water" the Dothraki fear. But wormwood is also the name of a plant:

Quote

Apsinthos is believed to refer to a plant of the genus Artemisia, used metaphorically to mean something with a bitter taste. The English rendering "wormwood" refers to the dark green oil produced by the plant, which was used to kill intestinal worms.

A star poisoning the waters? Dark green oil? The root in Bloodraven's eye that is like a worm? The kindly man's worm in his eye, eaten by Arya? I think if we put these symbols together, we approach "oily black stone" in combination with wood, eyes and the weirwood. That in turn reminds us of "Shade of the Evening," an oily substance brewed from the black trees of Qarth that serve to induce visions. The eyes - the God's Eye or the eyes that see through the trees, again to see visions.


In asoiaf, a wormwood star falling into the waters could thus be a magical tree, like the weirwood, falling into the waters and poisoning the sea with foul magic. Wormwood could also be driftwood, taking us to the Ironborn and the Drowned God, who if he was drowned, must have at one time been on land. In the Forsaken chapter:

Spoiler

“You know what waits below the sea, brother?”

“The Drowned God,” Aeron said, “the watery halls.”

Urri shook his head. “Worms … worms await you, Aeron.”

Arya eating the worm suggests she's part of the solution to eliminating  the foul "wormwood" poisoning the waters or indeed the planet, as symbolised by Asshai. 

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3 hours ago, Evolett said:

Also the "poison water" the Dothraki fear. But wormwood is also the name of a plant:

A star poisoning the waters? Dark green oil? The root in Bloodraven's eye that is like a worm? The kindly man's worm in his eye, eaten by Arya? I think if we put these symbols together, we approach "oily black stone" in combination with wood, eyes and the weirwood. That in turn reminds us of "Shade of the Evening," an oily substance brewed from the black trees of Qarth that serve to induce visions. The eyes - the God's Eye or the eyes that see through the trees, again to see visions.


In asoiaf, a wormwood star falling into the waters could thus be a magical tree, like the weirwood, falling into the waters and poisoning the sea with foul magic. Wormwood could also be driftwood, taking us to the Ironborn and the Drowned God, who if he was drowned, must have at one time been on land. In the Forsaken chapter:

  Reveal hidden contents

“You know what waits below the sea, brother?”

“The Drowned God,” Aeron said, “the watery halls.”

Urri shook his head. “Worms … worms await you, Aeron.”

Arya eating the worm suggests she's part of the solution to eliminating  the foul "wormwood" poisoning the waters or indeed the planet, as symbolised by Asshai. 

Wormwood plant got its name from the Wormwood star. Hence the poisoning association between them both.

I already link the Iron born to the Morning Star figure. One such example is found in flower names though not used that I know of, is Sea Asters "Sea Stars" (Like Valerian, Florian, Jonquil, and Maris,, which is also a sea creature known as "Star Fish" which are a class of Asteroidea. Star Fish are used in the story. This brings to mind that when the Falling Star hit, it hit in the Sea or is tied to the Sea. Like possibly striking the Arm of Dorne and causing the sea to flood the lands. 

They also link to Sea Dragon Point and a few other ties.

 

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - The Drowned Man

On the crown of the hill four-and-forty monstrous stone ribs rose from the earth like the trunks of great pale trees. The sight made Aeron's heart beat faster. Nagga had been the first sea dragon, the mightiest ever to rise from the waves. She fed on krakens and leviathans and drowned whole islands in her wrath, yet the Grey King had slain her and the Drowned God had changed her bones to stone so that men might never cease to wonder at the courage of the first of kings. Nagga's ribs became the beams and pillars of his longhall, just as her jaws became his throne. For a thousand years and seven he reigned here, Aeron recalled. Here he took his mermaid wife and planned his wars against the Storm God. From here he ruled both stone and salt, wearing robes of woven seaweed and a tall pale crown made from Nagga's teeth.
But that was in the dawn of days, when mighty men still dwelt on earth and sea. The hall had been warmed by Nagga's living fire, which the Grey King had made his thrall. On its walls hung tapestries woven from silver seaweed most pleasing to the eyes. The Grey King's warriors had feasted on the bounty of the sea at a table in the shape of a great starfish, whilst seated upon thrones carved from mother-of-pearl. Gone, all the glory gone. Men were smaller now. Their lives had grown short. The Storm God drowned Nagga's fire after the Grey King's death, the chairs and tapestries had been stolen, the roof and walls had rotted away. Even the Grey King's great throne of fangs had been swallowed by the sea. Only Nagga's bones endured to remind the ironborn of all the wonder that had been.

 

 
The Sea Dragon is linked to the Weirwood trees, likely having been a Weirwood Grove that's now petrified. Though the Grey King is said to slay the Sea Dragon, so his association to it is debatable. 
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bearskin_(German_fairy_tale)

This is another Bear legend tying House Mormont and the actions of Jorah for his Hightower bride. Plus the Bear and the Maiden Fair tale in general. It involves a pact with the Devil and "Bearskin" which brings to mind skin-changing as he's called a Bear pretending to be a man. The Dragon/ Serpent is often linked with the Devil. Lucifer is also linked to the Morning Star as Phosphorus, as Christ is linked through Eosphorus and Earendel. 

 

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4 hours ago, Evolett said:

In asoiaf, a wormwood star falling into the waters could thus be a magical tree, like the weirwood, falling into the waters and poisoning the sea with foul magic. Wormwood could also be driftwood, taking us to the Ironborn and the Drowned God, who if he was drowned, must have at one time been on land. In the Forsaken chapter:

  Reveal hidden contents

“You know what waits below the sea, brother?”

“The Drowned God,” Aeron said, “the watery halls.”

Urri shook his head. “Worms … worms await you, Aeron.”

Arya eating the worm suggests she's part of the solution to eliminating  the foul "wormwood" poisoning the waters or indeed the planet, as symbolised by Asshai.

 

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

The fourth room was oval rather than square and walled in worm-eaten wood in place of stone. Six passages led out from it in place of four. Dany chose the rightmost, and entered a long, dim, high-ceilinged hall. Along the right hand was a row of torches burning with a smoky orange light, but the only doors were to her left. Drogon unfolded wide black wings and beat the stale air. He flew twenty feet before thudding to an undignified crash. Dany strode after him.

 

 
There def seems to be an association between the Weirwood and Wormwood.

 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

The sight of him still frightened Bran—the weirwood roots snaking in and out of his withered flesh, the mushrooms sprouting from his cheeks, the white wooden worm that grew from the socket where one eye had been. He liked it better when the torches were put out. In the dark he could pretend that it was the three-eyed crow who whispered to him and not some grisly talking corpse.

 

 
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On 11/17/2022 at 1:49 AM, Evolett said:

Also the "poison water" the Dothraki fear. But wormwood is also the name of a plant:

A star poisoning the waters? Dark green oil? The root in Bloodraven's eye that is like a worm? The kindly man's worm in his eye, eaten by Arya? I think if we put these symbols together, we approach "oily black stone" in combination with wood, eyes and the weirwood. That in turn reminds us of "Shade of the Evening," an oily substance brewed from the black trees of Qarth that serve to induce visions. The eyes - the God's Eye or the eyes that see through the trees, again to see visions.


In asoiaf, a wormwood star falling into the waters could thus be a magical tree, like the weirwood, falling into the waters and poisoning the sea with foul magic. Wormwood could also be driftwood, taking us to the Ironborn and the Drowned God, who if he was drowned, must have at one time been on land. In the Forsaken chapter:

  Reveal hidden contents

“You know what waits below the sea, brother?”

“The Drowned God,” Aeron said, “the watery halls.”

Urri shook his head. “Worms … worms await you, Aeron.”

Arya eating the worm suggests she's part of the solution to eliminating  the foul "wormwood" poisoning the waters or indeed the planet, as symbolised by Asshai. 

The Lupus constellation in the mid southern sky is part of the Centaurus constellation. I thought this was an interesting association between the Wolf and the Horse-men. 

The Dothraki have a control over their horses that seems similar to the Starks with their wolves and Targaryen's with Dragons. Daenerys is with the Dothraki, and has a vision of howling alone in the darkness. She is also protected by the Bear. 

There is also the Bracken sigil, who fight the Blackwoods, who the Starks booted from the North. 

The Bear Constellation of the North, and Artic gets its name from Arth-/Artos. The Dragon of the North and the Northern Dawn (Aurora Borealis).

3 morning stars, with 2 being associated with the Hunter and his Hound (Warg?). The last being the lady, Venus. 

Summer solstice happens near Gemini constellation, leading to the dog days of summer (Associated with Sirius and Canis Major). Gemini is a pair of twins, but looks like a couple holding hands. Idk what it means but its the constellation during summer.

The Scorpion constellation of October is separated in the sky from the Hunter Orion by Zeus, as the Scorpion was his enemy who killed him. (Dorne killing the Last Hero and or Dragons?  House Qorgyle?       https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Qorgyle  )

 

  • Venus - Morning Star and female.
  • Sirius - Canis Major Morning Star and Warg?
  • Rigel - Orion the Hunter Morning Star
  • North Star Polaris - Lil Bear (lil dipper) constellation tied to Dragon Constellation
  • Dragon Constellation of the North
  • Big Bear (Big Dipper) Constellation of the North
  • The Scorpion Constellation of October
  • The Gemini Twins of July  Dog days of Summer tied to Sirius and Canis Major
  •  The Cancer/Crabs of Aug  Dog days of Summer tied to Sirius and Canis Major
  • The Northern Dawn - Aurora Borealis (Northern Lights - Rainbow Bridge?)
  • Arth-/Artos, Bear, Arctic.
  • Lupus Constellation tied to Centaurus Constellation. Wolf and Horse

Those are the main ones gathered here so far I think unless I missed something.

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