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Queen Alysanne's actions cost the kingdom dearly


Tyrosh Lannister

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29 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

There's no reason why being a dragonrider would be immune to magic, especially if it's another kind of magic than Valyrian's. And if even the dragonlords avoided the Sorrows it's surely for good reasons. 

Dragons are apparently a source of magic, or at least have major impact on magic in the world. But yeah, what Peaches and you said does make sense.

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3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

It's possible the Shivers were a magical response however given that Silverwing didn't actually cross over into Beyond the Wall has the contract really been broken? Or is even attempting to cross the Wall enough to break it?

My idea about the Shivers being a response to Alysanne's visit to the Wall is that they felt Silverwing's presence like Silverwing felt theirs ... and they felt severely threatened, fearing that the Targaryens might plan an expedition to the Heart of Winter before they were ready.

It seems clear to me that the Targaryens could have crushed the Others and their plans if they actually had used the dragons and dragonriders they had during the reign of Jaehaerys I and Viserys I to actually attack the Others and whatever power(s) might be behind them on their own turf.

All they may have needed was one really long, really warm summer.

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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

My idea about the Shivers being a response to Alysanne's visit to the Wall is that they felt Silverwing's presence like Silverwing felt theirs ... and they felt severely threatened, fearing that the Targaryens might plan an expedition to the Heart of Winter before they were ready.

A preemptive strike sounds like a likely idea.

But I don't think just dragons would be enough to take down the Others, at least not permanently. I feel like there's something more to it.

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13 hours ago, Ran said:

That's not really true. Nettles may have Valyrian blood through a past dragonseed, ultimately making her descended of a Targaryen.

Fair enough, I should not have said "proves".  Her bloodline was uncertain though, and the character of Nettles was supposed to make us question whether only Targaryens can ride dragons.  Rhaenyra (at least according to "biased historians") accused Nettles of using witchcraft to claim Sheepstealer, rather than being of "dragon blood".

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15 hours ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

My theory is, the shivers was sent to westeros because a fire creature tried to pass the wall. This was a breach of contract. The disease was sent as a punishment.

Maybe, but as others have pointed out, Alysanne never crossed the Wall. There is also the matter of the Nightfort however, which was abandoned on Alysanne's wishes, to be replaced by a new fort named Deep Lake seven miles further on. If, as suspected, the Nightfort with its Black Gate was a portal through which sacrifices were made to the Others in accordance with a pact, then closing it down would have ended that option of delivering on the ancient agreement. That could have incurred the wrath of the Others / cold gods, causing them to send a harsh winter plus the deadly plague. A quick look at the wiki tells me Alysanne visited the Wall in 58 AC. The plague followed in 59 AC. It may also explain why Alysanne's eldest daughter, a child, was taken. 

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On 11/8/2022 at 2:27 AM, Tyrosh Lannister said:

In 58 AC, she visits the nights watch and tries to fly her dragon beyond the wall and fails each time. The dragon refuses to go. There might be some magic embedded within the wall to prevent creatures of fire or fire elementals like dragons to pass. Same might be true for the Others (ice creatures).

Anyway, next year there is a harsh winter which comes with a disease called the shivers. It takes away her daughter. I believe its a magical disease. Targaryens are immune to common diseases that affect common men - the pox, bloodly flux, brownleg, wormbone, sourgut, etc. But they arent immune to magical ones like greyscale or the spring sickness or shivers.

My theory is, the shivers was sent to westeros because a fire creature tried to pass the wall. This was a breach of contract. The disease was sent as a punishment. 

Perhaps it was a rare disease carried by the people in the north.  A rare disease to which many in the north are carriers.  Most people will be resistant but there are a few who have weaker immunity to the disease.  The queen's party picked up the disease and brought it back to the big city.  

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40 minutes ago, Finley McLeod said:

Perhaps it was a rare disease carried by the people in the north.  A rare disease to which many in the north are carriers.  Most people will be resistant but there are a few who have weaker immunity to the disease.  The queen's party picked up the disease and brought it back to the big city.  

Hmm it is a rare disease as this is the first time we see it in westeros - thanks to Alyssa trying to flying her dragon past the wall

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13 hours ago, Evolett said:

Maybe, but as others have pointed out, Alysanne never crossed the Wall. There is also the matter of the Nightfort however, which was abandoned on Alysanne's wishes, to be replaced by a new fort named Deep Lake seven miles further on. If, as suspected, the Nightfort with its Black Gate was a portal through which sacrifices were made to the Others in accordance with a pact, then closing it down would have ended that option of delivering on the ancient agreement. That could have incurred the wrath of the Others / cold gods, causing them to send a harsh winter plus the deadly plague. A quick look at the wiki tells me Alysanne visited the Wall in 58 AC. The plague followed in 59 AC. It may also explain why Alysanne's eldest daughter, a child, was taken. 

I like this too, could be a combination of both.

 

And to some of the others, again, as i mentioned earlier, the targaryens of 58 AC are not the targaryens of pre-doom valyria. current targaryens have mixed blood of andals/first men effectively making them less immune to common diseases

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2 hours ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

And to some of the others, again, as i mentioned earlier, the targaryens of 58 AC are not the targaryens of pre-doom valyria. current targaryens have mixed blood of andals/first men effectively making them less immune to common diseases

This business of, or rather, the biology of immunity may be more complex and differentiated than we think. Perhaps we should not equate the "blood of the dragon" or Valyrian blood with immunity to disease at all. Both Daenerys and her Unsullied tended to the victims of the pale mare, coming into close contact with them but not falling ill while hundreds died. Meanwhile the bloody flux is said to decimate whole armies in no time at all and many men she sent to aid the sick succumbed to the illness as well. So does this mean the Unsullied all have some component of Valyrian blood while others do not? Or are they fortified by some other means? The Unsullied bathed in the sea to purify themselves afterwards and Daenerys had her clothes burnt and took one of her hot baths. 

Back at Yezzan's camp, Tyrion and Penny do not fall ill while Yezzan and most of his household die of  the pale mare. On arrival at camp of the Second Sons he advises the following:

Quote

“Do be careful with my head,” said Tyrion. “You don’t want to get any of my blood on you. Blood carries the disease. And you’ll want to boil our clothes, or burn them.”

Cleansing with hot water and burning clothes seems an aid to preventing the spread of the disease. Perhaps salt water has a similar effect. Interestingly and perhaps related - when Aeron Damphair recalls the maester's ineffective treatment of Urri's hand injury (from the finger dance), he thinks healing according to the Old Way, with fire and sea-water, would have been effective. So perhaps "fiery blood" alone does not guarantee immunity. Maybe some other component is necessary for intrinsic in-born resistance to disease the Targs believe in, something the current Daenerys was born with, but Alysanne's daughter did not have. 

 

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On 11/8/2022 at 10:27 AM, Tyrosh Lannister said:

In 58 AC, she visits the nights watch and tries to fly her dragon beyond the wall and fails each time. The dragon refuses to go. There might be some magic embedded within the wall to prevent creatures of fire or fire elementals like dragons to pass. Same might be true for the Others (ice creatures).

 

She should've tried going around it, not joking, it makes for bad writing that she tries and tries and just gives up, not wondering if the Dragon would go around it. It's not like the Wall magic travels around the globe on that same line to form a full circle, but then again do we even know if Westeros is a globe? Perhaps it is flat. What do Maesters say on it, or better yet, the Faith.

On 11/8/2022 at 10:27 AM, Tyrosh Lannister said:

Anyway, next year there is a harsh winter which comes with a disease called the shivers. It takes away her daughter. I believe its a magical disease. Targaryens are immune to common diseases that affect common men - the pox, bloodly flux, brownleg, wormbone, sourgut, etc. But they arent immune to magical ones like greyscale or the spring sickness or shivers.

 

Where do you get this? I remember reading something along the lines before, though I can't recall if it was from text or someone on the forums. Either way, the last time we saw her Dany's bowels were quite loose so, whether fan theory or actual text written in books, we see this is not the case.

 

On 11/8/2022 at 10:27 AM, Tyrosh Lannister said:

My theory is, the shivers was sent to westeros because a fire creature tried to pass the wall. This was a breach of contract. The disease was sent as a punishment. 

 

Oh how funny would it be if the others are back because Queen Alysanne disturbed the Other's peace :rofl:

I agree that the disease may have been caused by Alysanne's action and may have something to do with Others. Targaryens being immune etc., not so much.

 

 

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On 11/8/2022 at 11:56 AM, StarkTullies said:

Keep in mind that Daenerys is less than 5% Valyrian.  Just because her parents were Targaryen siblings, and their parents before that were Targaryen siblings, doesn't make her 100% Valyrian.  Grandpa Jaehaerys was half Blackwood.  And his father Aegon was half Dayne.  That takes her down to 25% Valyrian... but then you have a Martell and Rogare: 6.25% Valyrian.  Add Aemma Arryn into the mix (only half Valyrian), and that brings Daenerys to ~4.7% Valyrian blood.  So even if Valyrians were fully immune to disease (the first Princess Daenerys proves they aren't), I'm not sure how much of that 5% bloodline is really going to help Daenerys out.

Rogares are Valyrian. More Valyrian than the Targaryens since they have stayed on Lys and probably did not marry with anyone of nonvalyrian stock.

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