EggBlue Posted November 8, 2022 Share Posted November 8, 2022 so , HOTD's finished and , overall , it was good . however , there are some parts of it I wanted to discuss (this became longer than I thought ... sorry) the Structure... I think we all have talked about this issue a LOT . this season was about 30 years of material ! first of all , for such a difficult approach , I think this show did heck of a good job. I've always assumed the only reason for going with such structure must have been to have Vhaegar/Arrax scene at the end ,which is understandable . however , I believe this could have been done better if they hadn't stick to a linear structure and went with flashbacks . besides , unfortunately as good as that dragon scene was , in my opinion it didn't feel as memorable as it should have been in light of every way the show suffered for rushing through plots . * Shock Bomb of the week a theme in this season was pretty decent episodes ending with big moments for the sake of shock value , which were often stupid! this not only decreased the quality of each episode , but it also made the actual consequential big moments less memorable (for instance, the first dragon dance above Stormsend ) . (quick analysis : Ned Stark's execution and the Red Wedding wouldn't have been so huge, had there been other wtf moments in every episode of seasons 1 and 3 of GoT. they also wouldn't have worked so well , if they weren't logical in the context . ) Design Team deserves all the awards the designing team of this show is top notch . from detailed goblets in carriages to gorgeous fantastical armors (someone pointed out to me that not only helmets but also other parts of the armors don't make sense , but they look GOOD , so never mind that!) . and the controversial tapestries I've seen arguments suggesting that tapestries show the decadence of this era , I don't know if that was part of the intention .. but I don't agree . I think all the dragons in these artworks , show the dominance and grandeur of dragons which fits well with Valyrian thinking depicted in the show. and the dragons themselves are really well designed . well done. I genuinely paused at moments just to get a better look at Arrax. Regarding Dragons... dragons are a mix of the best and the worst in this series ! first of all they all look good and I appreciate the time and energy spent on their design . there are some amazing dragon scenes including Syrax birth scene , Aemond claiming Vhaegar and dragons going rogue in final episode. but they aren't shown too often due to budget issues which is perfectly understandable . but then there are unnecessary/silly moments of dragons that I don't see why any money is spent on them. besides , if I have to criticize the dragon representation in this series , it's not about the visuals and scenes , rather about how dragons are included in the politics of this society , which is so far non-existent . if you have dragon riders in a society and your royal family's biggest legitimacy is the ability to riding flying beasts ,there is always the chance of someone going rogue or someone starting a war against the monarch which would conclude in marriage arguments and war funding and so on. all the time jumps and the friendship it didn't work. when it comes to adaptations , especially when it's a book of ambiguous plot points , I'm not against changes .this feels like the first 5 episodes were meant to show this friendship turning into hatred ... but it fell short . I may be convinced of the friendship, but I'm not convinced that they later couldn't work it out. Rhaenyra Targaryen , the spoiled brat , the smart princess and the good mom I loved Rhaenyra. both actresses portraying her were talented and the writing team seemed to have put enough energy on this character, unlike her childhood friend. despite her interest in ruling from ep2 , her genuine care when it came to her friend in earlier episodes and her intention to keep peace if possible , they pulled off some good flaws in her . including being the spoiled daddy's princess deep down . I mean , she has come so far by the end of the season but nothing shows how she's been depending on her father's protection before than ep8 when she goes crying to him . the only bad thing in Rhaenyra's presentation is the nonexistent growing from the girl who feared child birth to the perfect mom who genuinely loves motherhood . but that is far from the worst transition of character in the series ... what is up with Alicent she is clearly unstable and has so many phases in the series that I'm starting think they have written her as a psychopath ! it seems like, in an attempt to make her sympathetic , they have also made her incompetent ! Daemon and Aemond these characters are far from what I imagined in the book , but they seem to be committed with what they're doing with these two (unlike the female characters). I especially like that after giving so many atrocities to Daemon , they committed in making him a villain and didn't have him bring up "leaving the dragons as the last attempt" like in the book . though , I still don't understand why show-Laena or show-Rhaenyra would be interested in this guy ! the Velaryons so , when you make a twist you have to make it work .Laenor's doesn't . Rhaenys's girl boss move doesn't either. Rhaenys is so convinced that Rhaenyra killed her son but she decides to team up with her because she is the most peaceful option ? right after Rhaenys herself just killed hundreds of people in a power show in Aegon's coronation? !!! give me a break ! Aegon the elder I cannot express how good Aegon actors are , especially the adult . and I think he should have been in the show more . I would have preferred that they didn't make Aegon this monstrous . and it wouldn't have hurt to see more humane sides of him such as his interactions with his kids( he became a drunk after Jaeherys's death ) , his love for his golden pet ( this was literally the true love of Aegon II 's life) or his attempts to make his parents happy and feel their love . I mean the actor played a lot of the latter in literally 2 scenes ! more of Jace wouldn't have hurt! it may be because he's my favorite book character , but there could be more of him this season . I feel like they could relate Jace studying so hard to be the perfect king to his fear of being regarded as not enough due to being a bastard . what do you think? Aegon the younger , third generation and future fiasco so , Dance is basically story of 3 generations fighting each other , Rhaenyra's , Jace's and Aegon III's . the most tragic thing about the third generation is that they have a good enough childhood that's robbed from them thanks to their parents' war . making Aegon , Viserys , Jaehaera and Jaeherys toddlers , leaves them mostly unaware of what's happening around them and who is dying . which is a problem in my opinion . the biggest issue : Aegon and Rhaenyra this is a war between siblings ... without any interactions in this season , these siblings will only have one conversation throughout the whole series and it's when one kills the other in a too gruesome way to be considered just executing an enemy ! so what is up with that?! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- *personally , I think the way to adapt dance properly would have been to start with kid versions of second generation getting along (Aegon , Jace ,...) with their moms having a rift between them explained through flashbacks and their own youth . season 1 could start with Daemon and Laena coming back and they could fool the audience with thinking there'll be a third faction with Daemon and Velaryons . it could finish with Daemon-Rhaenyra alliance/wedding and season 2 would have made the rift between Rhaenyra and Alicent unamendable with now their teenage children inheriting their hatred . 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Cashless Society Posted November 8, 2022 Share Posted November 8, 2022 3 hours ago, EggBlue said: so , HOTD's finished and , overall , it was good . however , there are some parts of it I wanted to discuss (this became longer than I thought ... sorry) the Structure... I think we all have talked about this issue a LOT . this season was about 30 years of material ! first of all , for such a difficult approach , I think this show did heck of a good job. I've always assumed the only reason for going with such structure must have been to have Vhaegar/Arrax scene at the end ,which is understandable . however , I believe this could have been done better if they hadn't stick to a linear structure and went with flashbacks . besides , unfortunately as good as that dragon scene was , in my opinion it didn't feel as memorable as it should have been in light of every way the show suffered for rushing through plots . * *personally , I think the way to adapt dance properly would have been to start with kid versions of second generation getting along (Aegon , Jace ,...) with their moms having a rift between them explained through flashbacks and their own youth . season 1 could start with Daemon and Laena coming back and they could fool the audience with thinking there'll be a third faction with Daemon and Velaryons . it could finish with Daemon-Rhaenyra alliance/wedding and season 2 would have made the rift between Rhaenyra and Alicent unamendable with now their teenage children inheriting their hatred . Then there would be an excessive amount of flashbacks and expository dialogue to fill in the gaps with the audience, which puts you in the same position Martin found himself in when writing post ASoS material, you're essentially telling a story that is mostly in flashback which lacks forward momentum. You might as well tell the story linearly in that case. 1 hour ago, EggBlue said: Shock Bomb of the week a theme in this season was pretty decent episodes ending with big moments for the sake of shock value , which were often stupid! this not only decreased the quality of each episode , but it also made the actual consequential big moments less memorable (for instance, the first dragon dance above Stormsend ) . (quick analysis : Ned Stark's execution and the Red Wedding wouldn't have been so huge, had there been other wtf moments in every episode of seasons 1 and 3 of GoT. they also wouldn't have worked so well , if they weren't logical in the context . ) Methinks that there be a wee too much nostalgia goggles and recency bias going on here. 2 hours ago, EggBlue said: Design Team deserves all the awards the designing team of this show is top notch . from detailed goblets in carriages to gorgeous fantastical armors (someone pointed out to me that not only helmets but also other parts of the armors don't make sense , but they look GOOD , so never mind that!) . and the controversial tapestries I've seen arguments suggesting that tapestries show the decadence of this era , I don't know if that was part of the intention .. but I don't agree . I think all the dragons in these artworks , show the dominance and grandeur of dragons which fits well with Valyrian thinking depicted in the show. and the dragons themselves are really well designed . well done. I genuinely paused at moments just to get a better look at Arrax. This is definitely one of the delightful aspects of the show. I'd like to add that I loved the design and decorations they did for Driftmark that contrasts to King's Landing. And also the grandeur scale of the royal hunt. 2 hours ago, EggBlue said: Regarding Dragons... dragons are a mix of the best and the worst in this series ! first of all they all look good and I appreciate the time and energy spent on their design . there are some amazing dragon scenes including Syrax birth scene , Aemond claiming Vhaegar and dragons going rogue in final episode. but they aren't shown too often due to budget issues which is perfectly understandable . but then there are unnecessary/silly moments of dragons that I don't see why any money is spent on them. besides , if I have to criticize the dragon representation in this series , it's not about the visuals and scenes , rather about how dragons are included in the politics of this society , which is so far non-existent . if you have dragon riders in a society and your royal family's biggest legitimacy is the ability to riding flying beasts ,there is always the chance of someone going rogue or someone starting a war against the monarch which would conclude in marriage arguments and war funding and so on. You can't show dragons on screen too much as it may induce viewer fatigue. One of the worst reactions you can get is in future episodes, viewers aren't impressed with dragons as they've already seen what they are capable of and nothing can impress them anymore. I'm not sure what you're getting at with the last sentence. 2 hours ago, EggBlue said: all the time jumps and the friendship it didn't work. when it comes to adaptations , especially when it's a book of ambiguous plot points , I'm not against changes .this feels like the first 5 episodes were meant to show this friendship turning into hatred ... but it fell short . I may be convinced of the friendship, but I'm not convinced that they later couldn't work it out. Most of it actually worked for me, except for the little reconciliation that happens at the family dinner. There's absolutely no way Alicent and Rhaenyra could reconcile so easily on the exact same day Alicent and co made such an overt power move with Vaemond, unbelievable. 2 hours ago, EggBlue said: what is up with Alicent she is clearly unstable and has so many phases in the series that I'm starting think they have written her as a psychopath ! it seems like, in an attempt to make her sympathetic , they have also made her incompetent ! What the hell are you talking about? 2 hours ago, EggBlue said: Alicent Hightower, the put upon lady , the self-righteous queen and the demanding mom I loved Alicent. both actresses portraying her were talented and the writing team seemed to have put enough energy on this character, similarly to her childhood friend. despite her interest in ruling from ep2 , her genuine care when it came to her friend in earlier episodes and her intention to keep peace if possible , they pulled off some good flaws in her . including being the ultimate hypocrit deep down . I mean , she has come so far by the end of the season but nothing shows how lonely and isolated she's been since her father left than ep6 when she goes crying to Larys Strong . 3 hours ago, EggBlue said: Daemon and Aemond these characters are far from what I imagined in the book , but they seem to be committed with what they're doing with these two (unlike the female characters). I especially like that after giving so many atrocities to Daemon , they committed in making him a villain and didn't have him bring up "leaving the dragons as the last attempt" like in the book . though , I still don't understand why show-Laena or show-Rhaenyra would be interested in this guy ! There appears to be a minor sort of Apollonian and Dionysian theme going on in the show, with the Hightowers being all about order, structure, reasoning and bound by duty, being aligned with both the faith and the citadel. The Targaryens on the other hand, favour individualism, choas, freedom, adventure, passion, instinct and magic. These are all things Rhaenyra desires and what Daemon embodies, so the attraction makes sense on that end. As for Laena... you'll have to come up with your own head-canon if you want to. 3 hours ago, EggBlue said: the Velaryons Rhaenys is so convinced that Rhaenyra killed her son but she decides to team up with her because she is the most peaceful option ? right after Rhaenys herself just killed hundreds of people in a power show in Aegon's coronation? !!! give me a break ! Why do you think Rhaenys cares about the smallfolk? She can still support a peaceful resolution to this conflict without the wellbeing of the smallfolk being a factor, because, after all, a war would also be an inconvenience to her. 3 hours ago, EggBlue said: Aegon the elder I cannot express how good Aegon actors are , especially the adult . and I think he should have been in the show more . I would have preferred that they didn't make Aegon this monstrous . and it wouldn't have hurt to see more humane sides of him such as his interactions with his kids( he became a drunk after Jaeherys's death ) , his love for his golden pet ( this was literally the true love of Aegon II 's life) or his attempts to make his parents happy and feel their love . I mean the actor played a lot of the latter in literally 2 scenes ! more of Jace wouldn't have hurt! it may be because he's my favorite book character , but there could be more of him this season . I feel like they could relate Jace studying so hard to be the perfect king to his fear of being regarded as not enough due to being a bastard . what do you think? This is an unfortunate consequence of the writers being forced to cover the back story in 1 season rather than the 2 they wanted. Same for Laena, Laenor and Harwin. 3 hours ago, EggBlue said: Aegon the younger , third generation and future fiasco so , Dance is basically story of 3 generations fighting each other , Rhaenyra's , Jace's and Aegon III's . the most tragic thing about the third generation is that they have a good enough childhood that's robbed from them thanks to their parents' war . making Aegon , Viserys , Jaehaera and Jaeherys toddlers , leaves them mostly unaware of what's happening around them and who is dying . which is a problem in my opinion . But why? They aren't going to leave a lasting impression on the audience. 4 hours ago, EggBlue said: the biggest issue : Aegon and Rhaenyra this is a war between siblings ... without any interactions in this season , these siblings will only have one conversation throughout the whole series and it's when one kills the other in a too gruesome way to be considered just executing an enemy ! so what is up with that?! Is it though? Technically yeah, but everyone, including the in-universe characters frame this story as The Princess and The Queen, as they play the pivotal role in setting off the war. So it would make sense to focus on these two. Aegon is absent for most of the war anyway and shows up at the very end, so what would be the point of framing it as the Rhaenyra versus Aegon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted November 8, 2022 Share Posted November 8, 2022 @Cashless Society I agree with you on alll of these points. There is too much backstory to do as a flashback, that would be a bad idea. I didn't think any of the episode endings were bad or for shock value other than maybe 1x09. Alicent is one of the best written and portrayed characters, maybe even the best. I don't think Daemon is an out and out villain, and he has been more appealing than the book version for sure. Maybe that's having a charismatic actor embody him, or just seeing his feelings and humanizing moments. In the show I believe he loves Rhaenyra and loved Viserys, while in the book I was never sure. And if they wanted to make him really, really evil, they would've made him do other things he is said to have done or suspected of having done at this point (murder Harwin, murder Laenor, have sex with teenage Rhaenyra, or ask for very young virgins in the brothel - the closest to that was Mysaria's offer of young maidens in 1x01, but we didn't get an answer fromhim). The story was always framed as Rhaenyra vs Alicent - the fact that the novella was called The Princess and the Queen says it all. And it should be that way as it makes things so much more complicated and interesting, that it's not just "Rhaenyra, potential first ruling queen, against the patriarchy!" but a story of two women who are both struggling with their roles in their society in apparently completely different ways, with the tools each of them has , although they still essentially want the same things (as Alicent has no dragon and hasn't been made heir by her father, but instead told to go and get close to the king and Rhaenyra might have much more freedom but she still has to marry a highborn man and produce heirs, even if it doesn't go as straightforward in her case, and she also has a sense of duty that Viserys gave her; they are both following the paths set out by their fathers). I also want to comment on this - very interesting idea that I really like: Quote There appears to be a minor sort of Apollonian and Dionysian theme going on in the show, with the Hightowers being all about order, structure, reasoning and bound by duty, being aligned with both the faith and the citadel. The Targaryens on the other hand, favour individualism, choas, freedom, adventure, passion, instinct and magic. - I love that you said that in the section about Daemon and Aemond, because it's so ironic when you know what's in store for Aemond. Daemon is a guy who enjoys tournaments and glory and goes to brothels and sleeps around (complete opposite of Aemond), but when he is particularly trying to piss off his brother and show what a rebel he is, he takes a dragon egg and pretends that he has married his common born mistressa and that she is carrying his child (even though he hasn't, and in the show she's definitely not pregnant nor does she want to be, and they don't even love each other) - because that's such a crazy thing that no Targaryen prince would reallly do, right? But ultimately what he really wants is to marry his niece / heir to the throne. While young Aemond is focused on duty to his family that his mother has set out, and "I would do my duty" and "keep our Valyrian blood pure" and, well.. show-only audiences are going to be pretty surprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 A really good video review that points out the greyness of all the main characters, including pointing some of Rhaenyra's flaws and mistakes, and trying to see things from Oto's POV: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landis Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 On 11/8/2022 at 7:40 AM, EggBlue said: the Structure... I think we all have talked about this issue a LOT . this season was about 30 years of material ! first of all , for such a difficult approach , I think this show did heck of a good job. I've always assumed the only reason for going with such structure must have been to have Vhaegar/Arrax scene at the end ,which is understandable . however , I believe this could have been done better if they hadn't stick to a linear structure and went with flashbacks . besides , unfortunately as good as that dragon scene was , in my opinion it didn't feel as memorable as it should have been in light of every way the show suffered for rushing through plots . * I am of two minds on the structure. On the one hand, I feel like the time jumps did aid them in constructing this Renaissance style narrative that spanned an extensive period of time. This also particularly helped with the centrality of childbearing and childrearing, which are far more time consuming practices to demonstrate visually than battles, especially because there isn't really an established short hand for varied maternal-focused narratives with much emotional depth like there is for war heroism, for example. Given the centrality of motherhood, I think it was a good choice. This being said... The kids needed more development. Aemond and Lucerys I think they did a fine enough job with building to the conclusion, and I think Aegon and Helaena have received enough to establish some depth for both characters, and also the nature of their relationships with their mother in particular. Jacaerys and Joffrey though... Jace has no pathos, and Joffrey set dressing. Baela and Rhaena are criminally underdeveloped, which was a shock given that they seemed to be setting up for something a bit meatier with episodes 6 and 7, certainly with Rhaena. Baela barely utters a word all season, despite being Daemon's favourite, and clearly having this close relationship with Rhaenys as her ward, which hasn't yet been expounded upon. While I know they wanted to get to Storm's End for the finale, there is a big part of me that wishes they had ended on Viserys dying instead. Having those additional two episodes to let some of these characters breathe a little longer (literally, in the case of some, like Laena and Harwin) and keep in some of those seemingly pivotal scenes (really shocking that Rhaenyra and Alicent fighting after the marriage proposal reveal, and Alicent's wedding were cut, of everything, if I'm honest) would have contributed a lot of cohesion, and I think it would have aided many of the non-book readers to follow the rationale of certain decisions as well. Another thing I'm surprised they didn't have time for given that motherhood was such a focus: why did we not see Alicent giving birth to any of her children? It's another of these unusually significant omissions that I assume fell victim to time. On 11/8/2022 at 7:40 AM, EggBlue said: Shock Bomb of the week a theme in this season was pretty decent episodes ending with big moments for the sake of shock value , which were often stupid! this not only decreased the quality of each episode , but it also made the actual consequential big moments less memorable (for instance, the first dragon dance above Stormsend ) . (quick analysis : Ned Stark's execution and the Red Wedding wouldn't have been so huge, had there been other wtf moments in every episode of seasons 1 and 3 of GoT. they also wouldn't have worked so well , if they weren't logical in the context . ) Wasn't much bothered by any of the "shocks" to be frank. On 11/8/2022 at 7:40 AM, EggBlue said: Design Team deserves all the awards the designing team of this show is top notch . from detailed goblets in carriages to gorgeous fantastical armors (someone pointed out to me that not only helmets but also other parts of the armors don't make sense , but they look GOOD , so never mind that!) . and the controversial tapestries I've seen arguments suggesting that tapestries show the decadence of this era , I don't know if that was part of the intention .. but I don't agree . I think all the dragons in these artworks , show the dominance and grandeur of dragons which fits well with Valyrian thinking depicted in the show. and the dragons themselves are really well designed . well done. I genuinely paused at moments just to get a better look at Arrax. One thing that remains a constant here and in the original series -- truly exquisite production design. I was concerned when I heard Michele Clapton wouldn't be returning for HOTD, but was very pleasantly surprised to see that Jany Temime was a fine successor. Very intelligent and creative design, fabric, and dye sourcing, loved it. On 11/8/2022 at 7:40 AM, EggBlue said: Regarding Dragons... dragons are a mix of the best and the worst in this series ! first of all they all look good and I appreciate the time and energy spent on their design . there are some amazing dragon scenes including Syrax birth scene , Aemond claiming Vhaegar and dragons going rogue in final episode. but they aren't shown too often due to budget issues which is perfectly understandable . but then there are unnecessary/silly moments of dragons that I don't see why any money is spent on them. besides , if I have to criticize the dragon representation in this series , it's not about the visuals and scenes , rather about how dragons are included in the politics of this society , which is so far non-existent . if you have dragon riders in a society and your royal family's biggest legitimacy is the ability to riding flying beasts ,there is always the chance of someone going rogue or someone starting a war against the monarch which would conclude in marriage arguments and war funding and so on. I was initially concerned that I wouldn't see enough of the dragons, but I also found myself not really missing them after each episode? The more compelling aspects for me were the characters themselves, so when not seeing a dragon resulted in underdevelopment for a particular character, that was more what irked me. One would be forgiven for thinking Aemond is the only one of Alicent's children with a dragon, because you never see Aegon or Helaena interact with theirs. We never see Moondancer. It is unusual to me that Syrax and Meleys are absent through much of the season. I'm annoyed that we didn't see little tiny Laena claim Vhagar. I also would have liked more to be said about the dragons who have been inherited in general: Does Rhaenys have any feelings about Daemon, the cousin she clearly has little love for, claiming her father's dragon, Caraxes? What are Daemon and Viserys' feelings about Rhaenys having claimed their mother's dragon, Meleys? It's fine that it's not there, but these are things the book didn't really talk about, and given the contentious relationship between Rhaenys and Daemon, and the fact that inheriting your parent's dragon was raised through the Rhaena vs Aemond situation, it would have added another layer to that. On 11/8/2022 at 7:40 AM, EggBlue said: all the time jumps and the friendship it didn't work. when it comes to adaptations , especially when it's a book of ambiguous plot points , I'm not against changes .this feels like the first 5 episodes were meant to show this friendship turning into hatred ... but it fell short . I may be convinced of the friendship, but I'm not convinced that they later couldn't work it out. Loved them bringing in the friendship/queer undertones to Rhaenyra and Alicent's relationship. I think it added a really fascinating dynamic to the narrative that humanized both characters in pretty key ways, and provided a lot of pathos to their decisions and the ways they interpret and are emotionally impacted by each other's actions. I'm not convinced they couldn't later work everything out either, and I am actually intrigued by the possibility (and by some accounts, likelihood) that they will work it out -- the tragedy, of course, being that by that time, the lines will have been drawn, and the ambitions of others will have spun things firmly beyond their control. On 11/8/2022 at 7:40 AM, EggBlue said: Rhaenyra Targaryen , the spoiled brat , the smart princess and the good mom I loved Rhaenyra. both actresses portraying her were talented and the writing team seemed to have put enough energy on this character, unlike her childhood friend. despite her interest in ruling from ep2 , her genuine care when it came to her friend in earlier episodes and her intention to keep peace if possible , they pulled off some good flaws in her . including being the spoiled daddy's princess deep down . I mean , she has come so far by the end of the season but nothing shows how she's been depending on her father's protection before than ep8 when she goes crying to him . the only bad thing in Rhaenyra's presentation is the nonexistent growing from the girl who feared child birth to the perfect mom who genuinely loves motherhood . but that is far from the worst transition of character in the series ... I am also loving Rhaenyra's characterization here, though I think I'm admittedly a bit nonplussed with a lot of the audience reactions I've seen so far, positive and negative. There seems to be a prevailing belief that Rhaenyra is being written as a "good guy", and I would strongly disagree. She's a deeply arrogant character; not maliciously so, but she is 100% bought into this belief in Targaryen exceptionalism, and this leads her to make critical unforced errors in the way she has acted throughout the series, which I find to be a really interesting and honest way to portray her. It also creates a fascinating parallel with Aegon, who suffers from a similar disregard for rules and expectations of them in their respective roles to different extremes -- informed by the bounds of gender to a degree. Deeply unfortunate again that these two characters somehow don't interact once in season 1. On 11/8/2022 at 7:40 AM, EggBlue said: what is up with Alicent she is clearly unstable and has so many phases in the series that I'm starting think they have written her as a psychopath ! it seems like, in an attempt to make her sympathetic , they have also made her incompetent ! I could not disagree more on this one The ways the show has developed Alicent from a writing standpoint, and via exceptional performances from Emily Carey and Olivia Cooke has been the #1 highlight of HOTD for me. Deeply layered and consistent characterization across both performances and throughout the season. It's an incredibly complex -- and, I would say sympathetic -- portrayal of a woman who has been used in the ways she has, and sought to rationalize it in whatever way she can to prevent crippling cognitive dissonance. All of her hypocrisies are beautifully executed, and the ways they have woven her intertwining love and resentment of Rhaenyra through every single weakness and strength of her resolve is some of the best character work I've seen in a very long time. On 11/8/2022 at 7:40 AM, EggBlue said: Daemon and Aemond these characters are far from what I imagined in the book , but they seem to be committed with what they're doing with these two (unlike the female characters). I especially like that after giving so many atrocities to Daemon , they committed in making him a villain and didn't have him bring up "leaving the dragons as the last attempt" like in the book . though , I still don't understand why show-Laena or show-Rhaenyra would be interested in this guy ! Aemond has been a pleasant surprise for me - very charismatic performances from both actors in this role, and I appreciate that the insecurities they have built into the character, and look forward to how these will inform his actions in coming seasons. Daemon... I didn't get his appeal in F&B, and I wouldn't list him as being among my most compelling HOTD characters either. What I did find interesting was the impotence angle they were aiming for in the first half of the season, which is implied to create a kind of parallel with Aemond in episode 9. I was very frustrated that the 10 year time jump seemingly just eliminated this issue - it does recur in the ways he lashes out with violence when people refuse to execute his will, but I would have liked for there to be a bit more connecting tissue there between episodes 5 and 6. I think more than anything, I'm just really eager for any ~discourse~ around Daemon to move on to something a bit more substantial than the superficial reads I'm seeing from so many, which is honestly contributing to a lot of the staleness I am associating with the character at this stage (which is very much a me problem, but such is the case). On 11/8/2022 at 7:40 AM, EggBlue said: the Velaryons so , when you make a twist you have to make it work .Laenor's doesn't . Rhaenys's girl boss move doesn't either. Rhaenys is so convinced that Rhaenyra killed her son but she decides to team up with her because she is the most peaceful option ? right after Rhaenys herself just killed hundreds of people in a power show in Aegon's coronation? !!! give me a break ! I'm obsessed with the Velaryons, but Rhaenys in particular. While I think Alicent has been the biggest standout on the show for me, Rhaenys might be the character I am most interested in from a macro perspective on ASOIAF based on the current portrayal (unless someone can finally tell me who Alicent's Targaryen mother is, because I have some theories in my lil brain that are very hungry for validation!). Just some really gorgeous writing on Rhaenys and Corlys, and fantastic acting from Eve Best and Steve Toussaint - HOTD is very much leveraging their extensive stage experience, giving them some of the best dialogue in the show, and the actors themselves elevate every scene they are in, and the scenes where they are playing off each other are among my favourites. My favourite episode in the series is actually episode 8, specifically for the ways they use Rhaenys throughout, having her adopt this fascinating balance of council between the storm gods, the old gods, the Faith of the Seven, and the maesters, all of which has been hinted throughout the series, but comes fully to bear in this episode. Exceptional blocking and writing, all providing some tremendously subtle development for the Queen Who Never Was, leading into Alicent's comments in episode 9 "the throne should be yours, by right and temperament", while also directly juxtaposing her against Rhaenyra and the Blacks (Jace learning instead about Aegon I cutting down the weirwoods and being encouraged to hold true to the traditions of his Targaryen forebears, and the overall commitment Rhaenyra and Daemon have to Targ supremacy). That this precedes the so-called "girl boss" moment in episode 9 is so well done, as Rhaenys has spent so long staying this course and playing a long and balanced game that she has undermined the realities of herself as a Targaryen: as she must in order to maintain peace. Bursting from beneath the floor ultimately read to me as Rhaenys saying "I am peaceful and diplomatic, and I am the balance -- do not be so great a fool as to ignore that, simply because I look compliant." 100% the character I am most interested in seeing developed further next season, especially knowing some of the events that are upcoming. I want to know more about this curious game she is playing, seemingly in alignment with the local Westerosi religions, and possibly in opposition to the Targaryens, if need be: there has been no scene so far suggesting that Rhaenys holds council with the Valyrian gods at all, we haven't even seen her speak High Valyrian at this point. Really compelling stuff for me. On 11/8/2022 at 7:40 AM, EggBlue said: Aegon the elder I cannot express how good Aegon actors are , especially the adult . and I think he should have been in the show more . I would have preferred that they didn't make Aegon this monstrous . and it wouldn't have hurt to see more humane sides of him such as his interactions with his kids( he became a drunk after Jaeherys's death ) , his love for his golden pet ( this was literally the true love of Aegon II 's life) or his attempts to make his parents happy and feel their love . I mean the actor played a lot of the latter in literally 2 scenes ! I think they are doing a great job with Aegon, particularly the ways they have telegraphed his rape of Dyanna by showing the specific ways in which his boundaries are violated by Alicent, especially in circumstances that are sexual in nature, like when she barges in on him masturbating and just ignores it, despite his visible discomfort. Excellent work that Alicent's boundaries are so frayed given that her own have been so thoroughly violated in the same manner by her father and Viserys throughout the series, demonstrating the cyclical nature of abuse. I mentioned this earlier, but I think there are definitely notable parallels being made between Aegon and Rhaenyra that I think are really interesting, especially because of the ways both characters orbit both Alicent and Viserys - there is the implication that Aegon frequently becomes a scapegoat for rage and frustration at Rhaenyra's own misbehaviours, for Alicent in particular. Not sure if I am at the point of feeling a tremendous amount of empathy for him, because the fact that he is male has meant the scale of his misbehaviours have been substantially more insidious and horrifying, but I think the writers are doing a great job here, and I'm very interested to see the way he grows in season 2. On 11/8/2022 at 7:40 AM, EggBlue said: more of Jace wouldn't have hurt! it may be because he's my favorite book character , but there could be more of him this season . I feel like they could relate Jace studying so hard to be the perfect king to his fear of being regarded as not enough due to being a bastard . what do you think? I don't much care for the Strong boys overall, but I would 100% agree with this characterization. I'd also note that Jace, like his mother and grandfather, are very diligent about studying specifically Targaryen histories, and pro-Targ histories of Westeros, and they do appear to be setting up some further guidance in this regard from Daemon in episode 10. I am curious how this will proceed, given my observations about Rhaenys, and how I would imagine her guidance will have impacted Baela, Jace's betrothed, while standing as her ward, as well as the pending meetings with Lady Jeyne and Lord Cregan in season 2, as these will be major opportunities for his perspectives to be challenged in substantial ways and hopefully lead to some interesting growth and conflicts for the character, both with his mother, and with his stepfather. On 11/8/2022 at 7:40 AM, EggBlue said: Aegon the younger , third generation and future fiasco so , Dance is basically story of 3 generations fighting each other , Rhaenyra's , Jace's and Aegon III's . the most tragic thing about the third generation is that they have a good enough childhood that's robbed from them thanks to their parents' war . making Aegon , Viserys , Jaehaera and Jaeherys toddlers , leaves them mostly unaware of what's happening around them and who is dying . which is a problem in my opinion . I'm a little wary of this as well, to be honest. When Rhaenyra brought out Aegon and Viserys to meet her father in episode 8, I was surprised that neither seemed older than about two years old, which... could have a fair bit of bearing on the ways the Dance impacts them in the long run, purely from a chronological perspective. We'll see though! As fast paced as the 20 years covered in season 1 have been, perhaps the next few will be drawn out over a longer period? On 11/8/2022 at 7:40 AM, EggBlue said: the biggest issue : Aegon and Rhaenyra this is a war between siblings ... without any interactions in this season , these siblings will only have one conversation throughout the whole series and it's when one kills the other in a too gruesome way to be considered just executing an enemy ! so what is up with that?! This is something that bothered me as well, even despite the parallels between the two characters. They have paid lip service to Aegon not wanting to be drawn against Rhaenyra, but it would have been nice to see Rhaenyra interact with... well, any of her half-siblings at all. This being said, with the narrative being firmly centered on the relationship between Rhaenyra and Alicent, I think they will probably adapt that final scene with a very different frame (and possibly also a very different conclusion) by leveraging that bond. To be sure, Ryan Condal's post-season interviews have indicated that, even with Luke's death, he feels that Rhaenyra and Alicent are very much still on a trajectory to work things out between them -- the question is more so how or if that will have a meaningful impact on the warring family members around them. Regardless, I have been very pleasantly surprised by season 1 of House of the Dragon. Lots of grand and thought-provoking work from a talented group of creatives in a world that I love! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted November 11, 2022 Share Posted November 11, 2022 @Landis They don't have to show every birth - there's a lot of them! - and Alicent has said that hers were relatively easy. She's clearly been lucky in that respect, at least. We've only so far seen three awful births Aemma's, Laena's and Rhaenyra's in the finale, and we saw Rhaenyra post-birth in 1x06, which was mostly about Alicent asking to see the baby's hair color. Same reason why we didn't see the Alicent/Viserys and Helaena/Aegon weddings. Nothing of note happened there, i.e., nothing horrible, and they were also not marriages for love where it would be meaningful to see their vows. I think they cut the Laena claiming Vhagar scene because they didn't want to get repetitive with "child claims Vhagar" scenes. I would love to get some mention of the dragons and their histories in the show. Casual viewers and even a part of the stan fandom have no idea that Caraxes was ridden by Rhaenys' father, that Meleys used to be the dragon of Daemon's and Viserys' mother or even that Vhagar was ridden by their father, and that dragons are not actually inherited from parents to children (in fact, there's been just one example of a child riding a parent's dragon, Maegor, and that was more about him having the guts to claim Balerion). But I imagine we will have a lot more talk about how dragons are claimed next season, when we get dragonseeds trying to claim the dragons. (I hope they find a good way to solve the Seasmoke issue.) Re: ages - there's been speculation that they will make the war last longer than in the books. I mean in terms of time, not events. It would certainly helps make some characters older, primarily the really young ones like Joffrey and even younger ones like Aegon and Viserys and Jaehaera by the time the Dance is over. And they're not the only ones who have been aged down - Alicent's kids have been, too. It would be nice if they made Aemond closer to his book age during the war (19), not 16-17 (the absolute oldest he can be in the show without time timeline collapsing on itself). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landis Posted November 12, 2022 Share Posted November 12, 2022 On 11/10/2022 at 8:00 PM, Annara Snow said: @Landis They don't have to show every birth - there's a lot of them! - and Alicent has said that hers were relatively easy. She's clearly been lucky in that respect, at least. We've only so far seen three awful births Aemma's, Laena's and Rhaenyra's in the finale, and we saw Rhaenyra post-birth in 1x06, which was mostly about Alicent asking to see the baby's hair color. Totally agree that they don't have to show every birth, it just struck me that, considering the emphasis on motherhood, for both Rhaenyra and Alicent, this particularly key part of it was not shown for Alicent in particular, and that does strike me as unusual. It isn't even about whether the birth itself is life threatening for the character, it is about the impact of that occasion: I wanted to see Alicent's experience of giving birth to her first child; I wanted to see the reactions of people when it turned out he was a boy; I wanted to see who attended the birth, as Rhaenyra, the person she cares most for, clearly did not; I wanted to see how Viserys treated her... It's a moment that is pivotal for Alicent regardless of how all of these pieces fall, and juxtaposing that against the fact that they show Rhaenyra giving birth twice, and have Alicent's presence or influence hanging over both creates a stark imbalance (intentional or not) between the type and amount of empathy the audience is encouraged to have for them as mothers. Add to that that the first birth scene is the death of Rhaenyra's mother, and the third is the death of the wife of Rhaenyra's husband, the audience is taught to view Rhaenyra's relationship with the birthing bed in direct relation to the other two examples (especially the final one in episode 10) -- but Alicent, who is giving birth to the children of the very same man who agrees to commit an act of violence against her predecessor to secure his heir, resulting in her death, is afforded no part in that continuity visually or otherwise, and I that was a choice that contributed substantially to the negative interpretations of the character by many in the audience, critically undermining their attempts to elicit that empathetic response through other avenues (most notably, the consistent thread of her sexual abuse, objectification, and dehumanization by her husband, her father, and Larys Strong). In my opinion, a cut that has that kind of impact is at the very least a loss, and at the most, an outright mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cashless Society Posted November 12, 2022 Share Posted November 12, 2022 On 11/11/2022 at 1:25 AM, Landis said: This being said... The kids needed more development. Aemond and Lucerys I think they did a fine enough job with building to the conclusion, and I think Aegon and Helaena have received enough to establish some depth for both characters, and also the nature of their relationships with their mother in particular. Jacaerys and Joffrey though... Jace has no pathos, and Joffrey set dressing. Baela and Rhaena are criminally underdeveloped, which was a shock given that they seemed to be setting up for something a bit meatier with episodes 6 and 7, certainly with Rhaena. Baela barely utters a word all season, despite being Daemon's favourite, and clearly having this close relationship with Rhaenys as her ward, which hasn't yet been expounded upon. Does Jace need much pathos at this point in the story? Most of what endears him to most readers occurs after he is sent as an envoy to the North, so I'm guessing the writers made the logical move of having him start out as a peripheral character in season 1, with an increased role in season 2, ending with his death (he's sort of the Robb Stark analogue for HotD). This is also because I see a stronger parallel between him and Aegon, and not Rhaenyra and Aegon. Baela and Rhaena did get the shortest end of the stick, especially Baela who could've spoken to her grandmother about the inheritance of Driftmark and could've been the one who first introduced the idea of a betrothal to Rhaenyra's son. On 11/11/2022 at 1:25 AM, Landis said: While I know they wanted to get to Storm's End for the finale, there is a big part of me that wishes they had ended on Viserys dying instead. This is usually not a good way to tell the story, as it breaks narrative momentum and cohesion while also making the first season thematically weaker. On 11/11/2022 at 1:25 AM, Landis said: I also would have liked more to be said about the dragons who have been inherited in general: Does Rhaenys have any feelings about Daemon, the cousin she clearly has little love for, claiming her father's dragon, Caraxes? What are Daemon and Viserys' feelings about Rhaenys having claimed their mother's dragon, Meleys? It's fine that it's not there, but these are things the book didn't really talk about, and given the contentious relationship between Rhaenys and Daemon, and the fact that inheriting your parent's dragon was raised through the Rhaena vs Aemond situation, it would have added another layer to that. It would be really weird for some grandparents to be feeling bitter over their cousin claiming a dragon that their parents claimed, given that each of them have claimed their own dragon, and one of them believes that dragons are a power that should have never been trifled with. And all of that happened ages ago. On 11/11/2022 at 1:25 AM, Landis said: My favourite episode in the series is actually episode 8, specifically for the ways they use Rhaenys throughout, having her adopt this fascinating balance of council between the storm gods, the old gods, the Faith of the Seven, and the maesters, all of which has been hinted throughout the series, but comes fully to bear in this episode. Could you elaborate on this, please. I never noticed anything of the sort and would love to get some perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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