White Lotus Season 2 (spoilers)

[Heartofice]

21 hours ago, RhaenysBee said:

I didn’t think they were happy endings at all. I thought they all just returned to their respective bubbles of lies and pretending without any major change to their characters or life choices (except for Quinn), which I found really quite tragic in a way. Especially for Rachel and Tanya. 

I read a review on IMDb which said that the show portrayed rich people as inherently terrible. This is true but I don’t think the show portrayed any of its non-rich characters in an idealized way at all. Armond was pretty terrible in his own way, Belinda and Kai weren’t at all without character flaws or responsible in their own (emotional) outcomes. Not sure what archetype Paula was supposed to represent but she was a piece of work as well. And I liked that. Everybody was messed up as it is in life and as it should be portrayed.

No, none of them were genuinely happy, but the clever point of the show is that it uses tropes and scenes from the genre that would usually be painted as happy endings and turns them about.

Really though you are right, nobody is good in this show. However I think the villain itself isn’t the characters, it’s inequality itself that is being pointed at as the big bad, and how it makes people act.

[Nictarion]

 

[RhaenysBee]

23 hours ago, Heartofice said:

No, none of them were genuinely happy, but the clever point of the show is that it uses tropes and scenes from the genre that would usually be painted as happy endings and turns them about.

Really though you are right, nobody is good in this show. However I think the villain itself isn’t the characters, it’s inequality itself that is being pointed at as the big bad, and how it makes people act.

Oh yeah, it does. Makes you question if you believe all those happy endings in other films after all. 

You can certainly read it that way and I can very much imagine that the creators intended it to be read that way. I personally see human nature at the core of the show and how it will always be flawed one way or the other while still relatable and garnering sympathy one way and the other. The show is well enough written and well enough characterized that it’s not forcing it’s political agenda down my throat and there’s wiggle room to enjoy and interpret the story the way it speaks to each and every viewer (and if that’s a political message for some, great, and if it’s something else for others, great as well). That’s really what I loved and appreciated the most about White Lotus. 
 

Finished all episodes in season 2 so far. Really curious to see how the couple dynamics progress. What I miss is the personal stories for the staff which is at best quarter-assed at this point. I wonder how that will unfold because I have all kinds of theories in my mind why it is so, and I can’t wait to see what my final conclusion will be. 

The prostitute plot is a drag. I understand that they are a plot device (just how absolutely ironic is that), but I do think they get way too much screen time for no content. All the time spent showing them apply makeup, shop for stuff and be sassy with staff could be spent on developing their stories and backgrounds. As a viewer these scenes offer nothing, as I know exactly the same amount of information about the girls 3 episodes in as I did in their introductory scene. So I kinda want so serious development in this plot or I want the screen time spent on the hotel manager or poor Rocco or any other aspect of the show that does or wants to tell a story. Just not Harper, I can’t stand Harper, she’s seriously worse than Olivia. 

 

[Gaston de Foix]

6 hours ago, RhaenysBee said:

Oh yeah, it does. Makes you question if you believe all those happy endings in other films after all. 

You can certainly read it that way and I can very much imagine that the creators intended it to be read that way. I personally see human nature at the core of the show and how it will always be flawed one way or the other while still relatable and garnering sympathy one way and the other. The show is well enough written and well enough characterized that it’s not forcing it’s political agenda down my throat and there’s wiggle room to enjoy and interpret the story the way it speaks to each and every viewer (and if that’s a political message for some, great, and if it’s something else for others, great as well). That’s really what I loved and appreciated the most about White Lotus. 
 

Finished all episodes in season 2 so far. Really curious to see how the couple dynamics progress. What I miss is the personal stories for the staff which is at best quarter-assed at this point. I wonder how that will unfold because I have all kinds of theories in my mind why it is so, and I can’t wait to see what my final conclusion will be. 

The prostitute plot is a drag. I understand that they are a plot device (just how absolutely ironic is that), but I do think they get way too much screen time for no content. All the time spent showing them apply makeup, shop for stuff and be sassy with staff could be spent on developing their stories and backgrounds. As a viewer these scenes offer nothing, as I know exactly the same amount of information about the girls 3 episodes in as I did in their introductory scene. So I kinda want so serious development in this plot or I want the screen time spent on the hotel manager or poor Rocco or any other aspect of the show that does or wants to tell a story. Just not Harper, I can’t stand Harper, she’s seriously worse than Olivia. 

 

Spoiler

• Yes, the couple dynamics are the most fascinating part of the show so far. We have the Ethan-Harper marriage which is "honest to a fault" and based on lots of shared interest but totally broken in terms of intimacy.  I thought the contrast with Daphne-Cameron "shallow but loving" in Episode 2 was interesting but the last episode saw Cameron turn into a basic finance bro (desperate, transactional, espousing the standard power uber alles worldview these fucks always have), while Ethan rejected infidelity.  White Lotus being what it is, I'm sure Ethan will be punished somehow, probably by Harper cheating on him with Cameron.  The fault-lines in the Cameron-Daphne marriage are on full view now, and its a race to the bottom to see which is the most fucked up. 

 

• The "prostitute" plot has been a head-scratcher for me as well.  Mia is the more interesting character and it rings true that the dividing line for a young attractive woman with the wrong friends between hooking up and hooking can seem pretty fine in some circumstances.  Her moment of defiance in singing the "best things in life are free", was genuinely stirring but it seems the whirlpool of transactional relationships is not so easy to bypass.  At some point, she's going to have to choose.

 

• Portia is my least favorite character.  She's a shitty PA who complains constantly even though she's been taken on an all-expenses paid vacation.  Have we actually ever seen her do anything for Tanya?  Albie is a close runner-up.  Judgmental, boring, and righteous he's a guy without a redeeming flaw.  Just remember, he took the free vacation notwithstanding his supposed solidarity with his mom. 

 

• Psyched for tonight's episode! 

 

 

[RhaenysBee]

1 hour ago, Gaston de Foix said:

Portia is my least favorite character.  She's a shitty PA who complains constantly even though she's been taken on an all-expenses paid vacation.  Have we actually ever seen her do anything for Tanya?  Albie is a close runner-up.  Judgmental, boring, and righteous he's a guy without a redeeming flaw.  Just remember, he took the free vacation notwithstanding his supposed solidarity with his mom. 

I don't understand Portia’s job. I suppose she doesn’t either but I’m also sure she is paid very good money and that’s a trade off she willingly chose. Yes she’s basically a Victorian lady’s maid to Tanya from what we have seen and yes that’s certainly soul sucking. But she’s free to walk away anytime. I’m looking forward to seeing what keeps her there. I do appreciate the character for a couple reasons: not being into Albie (romantically) for one, and having that burnout and disappointment in modern life. I relate to that a lot (Yes I know that’s a first world problem, no, I don’t care that we aren’t allowed to have those anymore, not even ironically, or that they are so 2017, I still relate).

At first I just found Albie profoundly boring and lame. Then he went on that speech about The Godfather and his granddad and I was done with him. Completely irredeemable, disrespectful, clueless, hypocrite shit preaching from his high horse to the people whose life’s work put him through an Ivy League school and set him up for life. 

[Relic]

Well, that was all very predictable. 

[Zorral]

Dayem -- I so often hit 'quote' when I intended 'spoiler'.  So much editing!

Prediction:

Spoiler

Greg returns just in time to save Tanya from being grifted by the eurotrash. Aldie somehow saves Portia from the grifting eurotrash nephew.

 

Oops.  Just joking. This is White Lotus.  Of course not!

Somebody must suffer the ultimate grift -- death -- though presumably 

Spoiler

the piano player recovers?  

[Zorral]

Fourth episode was the most lively, the first one I watched all way through, and did not once look to see how much more of this do I have to put up with, and then choose to either not put up with, or finish some other day. Yay! away from the dreary, tedious, richy, 30’s hetero couples, in favor of the young, and the non-straight.

Now one can see the bad stuff to come begin.
 

Spoiler

Didn’t that condom wrapper say “LARGE”? which is Connor's size? One fears game-player Connor placed it deliberately to make trouble between Harper and Ethan – he fucked the sex workers in his and Daphne’s room, not in Ethan’s, so what else? Not to mention he seems willing to do anything he pleases and it pleases him that somehow or other Ethan must invest his new riches with him.

Those jewelry pieces, whether picked out by Dom the Guy, or by Valentina the Woman, are the most hideous stuff ever! Give credit then, to Valentina’s crush target never changing by one twitch her happy muscle display when V pinned it to her jacket.

Tom Holland, playing the chief of the eurotrash crowd targeting Tanya, vitalizes any scene – he’s one of my favorite actors to watch. His laddish ‘nephew’ gives me the creeps. We immediately find the Quentin gang more than suspicious. That ‘nephew’ projects, “Enforcer and woman beater-rapist."

Presumably the piano player got to the hospital in time to avoid death from the Viagra-molly twofer Mia stupidly gave him?

Those two sex workers are such cliches, that I’m guessing ahead we will learn the dead body in the ocean that initiates season 2 is that of one of these two girls. (I thought those legs we glimpse were female, not male, but it was brief as brief can be.) The girls re operating independently, not for those whose beaks get tastes of everything – this is Sicily you all, happy Costa Nostra landia. Lucia didn’t get paid all of what was owed to them by Cameron. Not to mention the ick factor of Lucia transactional fucking Dad Dom, and then giving a blow job to the son, who doesn’t even seem to know he’s supposed to pay her. And let’s not forget the potential consequences for the bills she has run up on her own and Mia’s behalf on Dom’s room’s tab – and his daddy’s family comes from there, is a real old school guy, who whole heartedly admires The Godfather as the world as it should be. Will reckoning arrive for that, you reckon?

Not to mention that all the imagery of the art on the walls, in the rooms, in the town, are mythological references, historical references, depicting violent, death-ridden consequences of sexual desire and dark jealousy. 

 

[RhaenysBee]

I was a little bored this episode or maybe just way too tired to appreciate the good parts.

I shall conform to the use of spoiler tags because you all are using them.

Spoiler

The prostitute plot still doesn’t offer the story anything other than a plot device. I kinda wonder if Valentina finds herself in a workplace harassment case in a couple episodes. I’m sure the pianist will live, but I have no idea why Mia didn’t just sit down to play the vacant piano. It makes no sense for the plot and it doesn’t tie back to character which she doesn’t really have.

Albie is such a piece of shit and I so hope Lucia gets him into something that his oh-so-terrible granddad needs to get him out of and maybe that will teach him a life lesson. 

Curious to see where Portia’s story is going, there are way too many options at this point but I have a feeling it’s just going to end up super bland.

Harper is awful, and I suppose all the repressed inferiority complex will explode at some point. Ethan is painfully stupid, what do you think she’s worried about, mate? Which is either because he did sleep with one of the girls or because he doesn’t trust Harper to believe him or keep her mouth shut? I don’t know. This quad was my favorite part of the show so far but it fell a bit flat this episode. Then again they needed time to develop the Tanya story. (Though let’s be honest the pianist thing was a waste)  

I really loved the Tanya story, finally something happened to her and if Mr Collins wants to scam her he’s on the right track giving her exactly what she craves to lure her in. Not sure what the Essex nephew is doing in this mix other than providing Portia with an alpha option. Again, I’m curious to see where they are taking this whole theme. 

Overall I’m not sure I feel the same flow as I did in season 1 and I certainly don’t vibe with the humor as much as I did in season 1. Maybe because it’s a bit fragmented with all the scenes that should have remained on the cutting room floor. The editing was also better in season 1. I suppose I went into season 1 with zero expeditions and now I have a lot of them, which impacts how I receive it. oh well so far so good. 

[Zorral]

It feels odd, doesn't it, that at this resort for the internationally very well off population, in the background at least,

Spoiler

there are no Asians, no one from the Middle East or South America, nobody from Africa – not a single non-white face – only Italians, Americans and expat Brits. Wait -- I do recall the pretty faces of either Korean or Japanese fairly regularly, if very briefly, at the background tables on the breakfast patio.

 

[Heartofice]

I'm two episodes into the second season and I'm still enjoying it, but this so far does seem to miss the satirical edge of season one.

I'll wait to watch more but so far there doesn't seem to be much more going on under the surface than the soapy top layer of story

[RumHam]

On 11/21/2022 at 6:13 PM, Zorral said:

Tom Holland

Tom Hollander, I made the same mistake. When I finished season one I checked wikipedia and was like "oh huh, spider man is in season two?" So for the first two episodes I was waiting for him to show up before I checked again. 

 

Edit: any guesses where Season 3 might be set? I kinda miss hawaii but I'm guessing they'll want to go somewhere new. 

[Nictarion]

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

any guesses where Season 3 might be set? I kinda miss hawaii but I'm guessing they'll want to go somewhere new. 

Maybe somewhere in Asia? 

[Heartofice]

As I’m getting through the season (ep 4) I can see some of the themes coming through here. It’s not the clever take on inequality of the first season, but it seems like sexuality, particularly male sexuality is a big focus. I looked it up and it seems that is definitely one of the things the creator of the show was going for.

It did make me realise how little on that subject we actually see, from a male perspective. We talk about male gaze all the time, but there is a female gaze view of men that is now almost entirely dominant in movies and tv shows, where men are either terrifying rapists or good men ie non threatening. 
 

Here male sexuality is presented with a lot more honesty and it’s really apparent in the 3 generation guys. You have the oldest generation who openly gave into their urges with no regrets or apology, the middle generation who have the same urges and give in to them but desperately try and hide it or feel deep guilt about it, and the youngest generation who hide their urges incredibly far down and pretend they don’t have them, which may be the most insidious version of all. 
 

I’ve really enjoyed seeing the youngest guy Albie try and white knight his way through romances and being completely rejected by the assistant in favour of someone much more in touch with their sexuality, someone more confident and exciting. I think it gets to the heart of reality in a way that a lot of media likes to pretend doesn’t happen.

[Heartofice]

Its strange how much I was looking forward to the latest episode of this show, there must be something about the beautiful locations compared to the dreariness of the UK that makes me want to be there!

Either way:
 

Spoiler

It didn't feel like a whole lot happened in this episode, but I found it all rather enjoyable.

So it's now established that Tanya is pretty much there to be exploited by 'The gays', who clearly have no money and are there to continuously rinse old vulnerable widows. No real surprises but Tom Hollander (not spider-man nor the history author) is just so brilliant and watchable, I kind of want an entire show about his character. It seemed quite obvious from the accent that that guy was not his nephew.

It does seem like Albie is going to white knight himself for the prostitute, not realising his own part in her exploitation, thinking himself completely above any sleazy practice. I wonder if he will attempt to confront the pimp and the whole family ends up dead.. or maybe its the prostitutes..

I really love the building menace of the location though, they are playing it rather well.

 

[Relic]

Was "the pimp" really the pimp, or was it all an act for Albie? Lucia wants to go to L.A., that act could be one way of tricking Albie into taking her with him. 

Love the shots of water in this show, especially when contrasted to the man made art they keep linger on. Beautiful cinematography, and ominous as well. 

[RumHam]

7 hours ago, Relic said:

Was "the pimp" really the pimp, or was it all an act for Albie? Lucia wants to go to L.A., that act could be one way of tricking Albie into taking her with him. 

Love the shots of water in this show, especially when contrasted to the man made art they keep linger on. Beautiful cinematography, and ominous as well. 

Yeah I don't think he was really a pimp. She never mentioned one to Mia and Cameron still owns her 1300 Euros. 

[Heartofice]

I did consider whether the pimp thing was totally set up, but then the scene felt quite authentic so it pretty much threw me off. It also felt like she is not the sort of person to set something like that up, being more opportunistic and 'for the moment'. I'm probably wrong though, her having a dangerous pimp seemed to throw the themes of the show off if true. Her manipulating Albie and using his own sexual drive and sense of righteousness against him seems very inkeeping with what has gone before. 



 

[Datepalm]

Spoiler

I actually quite enjoyed the two couples breaking down and throwing out all the simmering resentments in full cringe awkward  'haha did I say that jk lol but also yeah I did' sex farce. Ethan has resented Cameron for years, Harper is not getting what she needs (literally) in that marriage and that seems to be a pattern for Ethan, etc, etc. Just have an orgy, you're all thinking it.

Ah, the Nephew - I guess there's an irony that Portia and Albie both ended up with people who are some description of sex worker?

Albie and Portia - I can't stand them, but they do draw out some thread of privileged, idealistic, yet hopelessly waffling and self-absorbed California Gen Z kids that I'm surrounded by (ok, the ones I teach are not that bad, but also I am old now, (to make anyone who remembers me on this forum as a teenager feel really old.)) so there's a little bit of satisfaction in seeing the show eviscerate them. I think they're probably the characters getting the shortest shrift, maybe even including the Billionaire lady who is painted as dumb and tedious as a brick, yes, but also as genuinely miserable, while the kids are just annoying and their unhappiness is also annoying.

[RhaenysBee]

This was an interesting episode though somewhat overhyped. The number of headlines about the “shocking twist/scene/episode” fell so flat that I actually checked if there was a newer episode I missed with the alleged shocking aspect. Oh well, media, I suppose. 

Harper is the absolute worst person in the entire show and I can’t wait to see where her awfulness is going to climax - literally and figuratively. I feel sorry for Ethan and Daphne.

Portia keeps falling in my eyes as we see more of her dynamic with Tanya. Can you not be so disinterested and rude trying to pursue your own entertainment while you are on someone’s payroll to be on vacation? 

Albie is going to get in sooooo much well deserved trouble and I can’t wait for big bad grandpa to bail him out. Dominic’s responsibility shifting was an obligatory check point the story had to touch for thoroughness, but I’m kinda looking forward to see if these three leave Sicily with a deeper understanding and respect for the others or you know, they leave as they went or not at all. 

I have some difficulty understanding Valentina’s psychology because we just don’t spend enough time on her. But I’m expecting some sort of staff revolt at some point because she’s a terrible people manager. Lucia is clearly and obviously playing everyone and though her worry if this game plays out shows, I have the impression that she’s pretty much in control of achieving her goals. Nice to Mia pushing until she achieves hers as well. 

Mr Collins and his nephew didn’t shock me in either aspects of their story. It was somewhat obvious that they are trying to scam Tanya from the moment the invitations started showering. As for the nephew, remind me, what’s shocking about this revelation? Anyway, I can’t wait for the conversation between Tanya and Portia about this. 

overall the show still has my interest and I have some level of investment for certain characters. I don’t feel the same natural and genius flow that I did with season 1, but the finale may yet surprise me. The themes are definitely going in the right direction, they are thorough, 360 degree and realistically subversive. They ask important questions and open dilemmas that modern media tends to treat with dogmatism. This is what elevated season 1 as well, and even though the editing, pacing and plot aren’t as good as, season 2 definitely delivers on this front.