Arya, the Darkheart

[SeanF]

8 minutes ago, Raven Princling said:

I feel like some people are forgetting that Arya is a literal child, and a lot of her arc is about how revenge is pointless and simply repeats the cycle of violence (which I think she will understand before the end of the series).

I just hope that people will hold characters like Daenerys to the same standard as Arya, Jon and etc. when her invasion of Westeros will cause countless deaths and rapes. Something tells me they will not, because pretty special dragon queen. (I do not dislike Dany do not get me wrong).

 

I think Dany ought to held to the same standard as the rest.  But, that inclines me towards sympathy, in each case, rather than condemnation.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

A modern court would sentence Arya to an institution for the criminally insane. She is unlikely to be released.  Which is a fair sentence for the murder of Dareon and the old gentleman as long as she is never released.  Arya will get a hearing, which is more than she gave Dareon, Raff, and the old man.  

You're not serious? What should Dany get for roasting Kraznys? or the rest of the slavers? What about MMD? I suppose you would like to see a much harsher sentence for those murders, right? 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Arya is under age 12 so where I live she would not be being prosecuted at all. And she wouldn't be sent to an institution for the criminally insane, because she isn't insane.

Children receive lower sentences than adults in general. And when you factor in that Arya was manipulated into carrying out the crimes, I would imagine a significant reduction in 'sentence', assuming she even got a custodial one in the first place. So yes, she is likely to be released.

People who have killed others entirely of their own free will in worse ways than Arya are not always detained forever. So I doubt it.

I'm afraid it's no use talking sense to some people. 

[Craving Peaches]

6 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'm afraid it's no use talking sense to some people. 

If they wish, I will find them real life cases to illustrate what would happen to Arya. Or I will find cases where an older child has done something far worse than Arya, of their own free will, and still not received the kind of punishment they are pining for Arya to get.

Edited November 22, 2022 by Craving Peaches

[Craving Peaches]

On 11/19/2022 at 1:18 PM, Shierak Qiya said:

HBO wanted to scratch the itch of the Stark fanbase who were screaming for Frey blood.

I wonder why. Could it be because the Freys treacherously butchered thousands of people they were supposed to be protecting, and committed one of the gravest taboos in their society?

[Quoth the raven,]

The justice system in many places in this country can only be described as broke and "woke."  They coddle the criminals.  Insane policies in the name of "social justice" like Prop 47 and Cashless Bail created dangerous crime waves in many cities.  That is obviously not where we want to send Arya.  We want the punishment she deserves rather than what an overly lenient criminal justice system will give.  She needs to be held in a max security detention center for a very long time.  Perhaps for her life span. 

[Nevets]

There is a long-standing practice in America, and most other Western countries, of leniency towards children, especially young ones.  Given Arya's young age and exposure to horrific wartime violence, not to mention the Faceless Men's malign influence, I would expect a period of confinement, with a focus on treatment and rehabilitation the goal.  Actually, I suspect simply being in a safe, caring environment would be a great help.  

Dareon is really the only difficult case under the circumstances.  The insurance broker is really the responsibility of the FM, and Raff is pretty understandable given her experiences.  Her killings in Westeros we're mostly for her own safety.  As a practical matter, she is not really a serious threat to public safety.

Edited November 23, 2022 by Nevets

[SeanF]

9 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

You're not serious? What should Dany get for roasting Kraznys? or the rest of the slavers? What about MMD? I suppose you would like to see a much harsher sentence for those murders, right? 

I suppose if one lives in North Korea or Saudi Arabia then someone like Arya would be horribly punished, but I doubt if those are models to emulate.

[Craving Peaches]

7 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

The justice system in many places in this country can only be described as broke and "woke." 

I don't know which country you speak of, but I think it's perfectly fine that children in my country receive lower punishments than adults or can't be tried. A child just usually does not have the same capacity to realise the crime. And you need to consider the process that a trial and a charge entail. Will a child really understand all that? Unlikely.

7 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

They coddle the criminals.  Insane policies in the name of "social justice" like Prop 47 and Cashless Bail created dangerous crime waves in many cities.

I doubt the reason for this is because they're not chopping children's hands off or gouging their eyes out.

7 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

That is obviously not where we want to send Arya.

That is obviously not where you want to send Arya.

7 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

We want the punishment she deserves rather than what an overly lenient criminal justice system will give.

Well unfortunately for you, the justice system decides what type of punishment someone gets. The judge usually has a good reason for the length or type of sentence they impose. This has been developed and improved, at least where I live, over hundreds of years.

7 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

She needs to be held in a max security detention center for a very long time.  Perhaps for her life span. 

This is quite frankly a stupid conclusion, because not only do you still fail to acknowledge that Arya, a nine-year-old child was manipulated into carrying out those acts in a vulnerable state of mind, you also fail to understand that the purpose of a sentence isn't just punishment, but to allow in some cases for rehabilitation. Sticking a nine-year old girl in prison for life after she killed two people because of the influence of numerous sadists and a murder cult, after seeing her family destroyed, is not only in my view an unjust punishment but also pointless. You might as well have her executed. Detaining her for life when it wasn't even all her fault is ridiculous.

There is limited space in such facilities, and people guilty of more heinous crimes than Arya.

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't know which country you speak of, but I think it's perfectly fine that children in my country receive lower punishments than adults or can't be tried. A child just usually does not have the same capacity to realise the crime. And you need to consider the process that a trial and a charge entail. Will a child really understand all that? Unlikely.

I doubt the reason for this is because they're not chopping children's hands off or gouging their eyes out.

That is obviously not where you want to send Arya.

Well unfortunately for you, the justice system decides what type of punishment someone gets. The judge usually has a good reason for the length or type of sentence they impose. This has been developed and improved, at least where I live, over hundreds of years.

This is quite frankly a stupid conclusion, because not only do you still fail to acknowledge that Arya, a nine-year-old child was manipulated into carrying out those acts in a vulnerable state of mind, you also fail to understand that the purpose of a sentence isn't just punishment, but to allow in some cases for rehabilitation. Sticking a nine-year old girl in prison for life after she killed two people because of the influence of numerous sadists and a murder cult, after seeing her family destroyed, is not only in my view an unjust punishment but also pointless. You might as well have her executed. Detaining her for life when it wasn't even all her fault is ridiculous.

There is limited space in such facilities, and people guilty of more heinous crimes than Arya.

I think he refers to the US.  “Woke” is not how I would describe the U.S. judicial system.

A maximum security prison means locking someone up for 23 hours a day in a soundproofed concrete cell, with food being provided through a hatch.  Exercise is permitted in an enclosed yard.  The prisoner never gets to see daylight.  Most would go mad in that environment.

The notion that this is what a child “deserves” as punishment is bizarre.

[Craving Peaches]

Spoiler

This is from an appeal case, where two boys aged older than Arya at the time of the murder (and therefore arguably able to take more responsibility), successfully appeal their sentences of under 12 years in custody each, which were held to be excessive. Bear in mind that they also made an early guilty plea which resulted in a further reduction before this. Look at what the Court says with regards to sentencing.

Quote

"The first is that the court must have regard to the best interests of the child as a primary consideration...and to the desirability of the child’s reintegration into society..."

And they refer to this American case as well.

Quote

“First ... [a] lack of maturity and an underdeveloped sense of responsibility are found in youth more often than in adults and are more understandable among the young. These qualities often result in impetuous and ill-considered actions and decisions (Johnson v Texas (1993) 509 US 350 at 367) ... [J]uveniles are more vulnerable or susceptible to negative influences and outside pressures, including peer pressure ... [They] have less control or less experience with control, over their own environment ... The third broad difference is that the character of a juvenile is not as well formed as that of an adult. The personality traits of juveniles are more transitory, less fixed”.

Quote

As Lady Hale put it in R (Smith): “24. ... the first of these meant that a juvenile’s irresponsible conduct was not as morally reprehensible as that of an adult; the second meant that juveniles had a greater claim to be forgiven for failing to escape the negative influences around them; and the third meant that even the most heinous crime was not necessarily evidence of an irretrievable depraved character ... 25. These considerations are relevant to the retributive and deterrent aspects of sentencing, in that they indicate that the great majority of juveniles are less blameworthy and more worthy of forgiveness than adult offenders. [T]hey also show that an important aim ... of any sentence imposed should be to promote the process of maturation, the development of a sense of responsibility, and the growth of a healthy adult personality and identity”.

Pretty sound reasoning, no?

Source: 2019hcjac47.pdf (scotcourts.gov.uk)

[Craving Peaches]

For anyone who cares to look the above is a real life murder case where two children older than Arya successfully appealed their sentences. The reasoning of the Court is quite important, I think.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

  Hide contents

This is from an appeal case, where two boys aged older than Arya at the time of the murder (and therefore arguably able to take more responsibility), successfully appeal their sentences of under 12 years in custody each, which were held to be excessive. Bear in mind that they also made an early guilty plea which resulted in a further reduction before this. Look at what the Court says with regards to sentencing.

And they refer to this American case as well.

Pretty sound reasoning, no?

Source: 2019hcjac47.pdf (scotcourts.gov.uk)

They should have their eyes put out, and hands chopped off.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

8 hours ago, SeanF said:

I suppose if one lives in North Korea or Saudi Arabia then someone like Arya would be horribly punished, but I doubt if those are models to emulate.

Indeed. 

 

Hello, btw  Nice to see some familiar peeps round here. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

15 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

The justice system in many places in this country can only be described as broke and "woke."  They coddle the criminals.  Insane policies in the name of "social justice" like Prop 47 and Cashless Bail created dangerous crime waves in many cities.  That is obviously not where we want to send Arya.  We want the punishment she deserves rather than what an overly lenient criminal justice system will give.  She needs to be held in a max security detention center for a very long time.  Perhaps for her life span. 

Definitely in the US, it is broke. I think the goal is to stop overcrowding the jails, but it seems they are going about it backward, IMO. If jail time was focused on rehabilitation we would have less repeat offenders. I don't think to get harsher is always the answer. We have young men, specifically, young black men being imprisoned for victim-less crimes & they get put in jail - in an environment that breeds the exact scenario's we want these men to avoid. I know quite a few people who have went to prison &/or jail & it's like gladiator school. They are forced to fight or not eat, and sometimes fight and not eat. The correctional officers are bringing drugs into the prisons & no one cares. They don't follow their own rules. Anyway point being when these young men get released they don't have the slightest idea how to be a part of a civilized society. They can't get jobs because they are felons, they end up going right back to their life of crime because they know nothing else. 

I don't think they coddle the criminals at all, rather, they put them in an environment that encourages bad behavior, more than encourages it, makes it a necessity. If you go to prison you had better be in some gang or another or you are fresh meat, destined to spend out your days being beat on & molested/raped. It's not a good scenario for prisoners or society, if you ask me. 

Sorry, to derail the thread, this is just a very interesting topic to me. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

8 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

This is quite frankly a stupid conclusion, because not only do you still fail to acknowledge that Arya, a nine-year-old child was manipulated into carrying out those acts in a vulnerable state of mind, you also fail to understand that the purpose of a sentence isn't just punishment, but to allow in some cases for rehabilitation. Sticking a nine-year old girl in prison for life after she killed two people because of the influence of numerous sadists and a murder cult, after seeing her family destroyed, is not only in my view an unjust punishment but also pointless. You might as well have her executed. Detaining her for life when it wasn't even all her fault is ridiculous.

There is limited space in such facilities, and people guilty of more heinous crimes than Arya.

 especially to the bolded. She is a child. I don't understand how anyone could look at a 9 year old & not wonder what led them to the crime they have committed. What kind of people are we, if we allow children to be traumatized & then refuse to acknowledge where that trauma may have led them? 

[Craving Peaches]

5 minutes ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

I don't understand how anyone could look at a 9 year old & not wonder what led them to the crime they have committed. What kind of people are we, if we allow children to be traumatized & then refuse to acknowledge where that trauma may have led them? 

I can't wait to see the mental gymnastics involved if/when Daenerys does something to make Arya's crimes look extremely mild in comparison.

[SeanF]

27 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I can't wait to see the mental gymnastics involved if/when Daenerys does something to make Arya's crimes look extremely mild in comparison.

I imagine she'll be getting pretty medieval on the slavers, in TWOW.  Poles up arses, and so forth.

Edited November 23, 2022 by SeanF

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I imagine she'll be getting pretty medieval on the slavers, in TWOW.  Poles up arses, and so forth.

I was more meaning when her actions inevitably lead to the death of innocent civilians. Or if they go down the evil route.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

On 11/8/2022 at 4:28 PM, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

The murders of Dareon and the Old Insurance man were two of the most heinous crimes committed in all of the story. 

I don't think you're stating this strongly enough. Try "In a story that includes atrocities such as the forced feeding of one's own amputated extremities, the eradication of whole families over insult, the immolation of virgins and human sacrifice to basically any god that may or may not listen, the most heinous acts committed were the murder of a usurer and a traitor."