Arya, the Darkheart

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

30 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I wonder if Lord flesh tastes better to a dragon than commoner flesh, or is Dornish flesh hot with all the spices they consume. Do dragons have a prefference?

I would bet they would like the spicy Dornish. 

[SeanF]

35 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I wonder if Lord flesh tastes better to a dragon than commoner flesh, or is Dornish flesh hot with all the spices they consume. Do dragons have a prefference?

Dragons prefer their food char-grilled, and extremely well done, so the flavour probably isn’t that important.

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

On 12/3/2022 at 8:58 PM, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

To all participants, I am grateful for your comments.  Just please keep the discussion and disagreement civil.

With that out of the way, let's talk. 

The books suggests Arya is getting worse.  What the old woman saw strongly suggests Arya will murder a lot of people.  The book does not suggests Arya will get well.  The book does not suggests Arya will stop murdering. 

 

On 12/4/2022 at 5:06 AM, Craving Peaches said:

The book does not suggest Arya will happily murder the whole of King's Landing. Sorry.

Take a look where Arya currently stand.  You can take Arya away from the darkness.  But you cannot take the Darkness away from Arya.  She has become darker and darker with each murder.  

[Craving Peaches]

4 hours ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

You can take Arya away from the darkness.  But you cannot take the Darkness away from Arya. 

That is exactly what you can do. Place Arya in a proper environment for a 9 year old and I guarantee she would not still be trying to murder people. Remove the influence of the Faceless Men and she improves drastically.

[Nevets]

17 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

That is exactly what you can do. Place Arya in a proper environment for a 9 year old and I guarantee she would not still be trying to murder people. Remove the influence of the Faceless Men and she improves drastically.

Getting away from the Faceless Men would definitely be an improvement.  She's been OK in a normal environment, until she meets someone she wants dead, and then . . . <sigh>. 

She needs a safe, caring environment, with at least a modicum of supervision, preferably by people aware of her problems.

By the way, for what it's worth, she was 9 at the beginning of the story.  She's 11 now, probably pushing 12.  Still too young for what she's doing, though young enough to change.  And puberty is coming.  Oh, goody!

Edited December 9, 2022 by Nevets

[Craving Peaches]

5 hours ago, Nevets said:

By the way, for what it's worth, she was 9 at the beginning of the story.  She's 11 now, probably pushing 12. 

Thank you for confirming her age. I always have a bit of trouble with characters ages because I have trouble determining exactly how much time passes between books.

[Nevets]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Thank you for confirming her age. I always have a bit of trouble with characters ages because I have trouble determining exactly how much time passes between books.

AGOT took about a year.  ACOK was about 8-9 months, and ASOS about 3 months.  The first three are just under two years.  ADWD is about 8-9 months for a total of about 2 years 8 months.

Also, I think Arya tells the Waif she's 11, and Jon thinks to himself that she's 11 when he hears of Ramsay's marriage.

[Rondo]

8 hours ago, Nevets said:

Getting away from the Faceless Men would definitely be an improvement.  She's been OK in a normal environment, until she meets someone she wants dead, and then . . . <sigh>. 

She needs a safe, caring environment, with at least a modicum of supervision, preferably by people aware of her problems.

By the way, for what it's worth, she was 9 at the beginning of the story.  She's 11 now, probably pushing 12.  Still too young for what she's doing, though young enough to change.  And puberty is coming.  Oh, goody!

A safe, caring environment!  That is not what is needed for Arya.  Maybe after she serves 15-20 years in a high security mental institute for the murders of the old man and Dareon.  

[Nevets]

57 minutes ago, Rondo said:

A safe, caring environment!  That is not what is needed for Arya.  Maybe after she serves 15-20 years in a high security mental institute for the murders of the old man and Dareon.  

The old man was killed on Faceless Men orders.  No Faceless Men, no Arya killing old guy.  I already suggested getting away from them.  And while I'm not happy about Dareon, one murder does not a pattern make.  She could potentially become bad and dangerous; she's not there yet and has a ways to go to get there.

[Craving Peaches]

3 hours ago, Rondo said:

A safe, caring environment!  That is not what is needed for Arya.

Yes it is. Just because you don't like that Arya has a good chance to recover in one doesn't mean it won't work.

3 hours ago, Rondo said:

Maybe after she serves 15-20 years in a high security mental institute for the murders of the old man and Dareon.  

Myself and multiple other people have already made multiple other posts about why this would not happen, which you may read at your leisure.

[The Gizzard of Oz]

Not a single debate participant here is unbiased towards Arya.  I have my own bias.  I will be sharing my own opinion of Arya in the future. 

The disturbing thoughts I see are coming from those who want what's best for Arya and are ready to write off the lives of her victims. I don't agree with those opinions.  Arya is guilty of many murders.  Arya does not have my sympathy.  She needs to pay for the lives of her victims.  Arya should be imprisoned for 10 years for each murder.  That's being generous and merciful.  She can have her freedom back by 30-31 years of age. 

[Craving Peaches]

8 minutes ago, The Gizzard of Oz said:

The disturbing thoughts I see are coming from those who want what's best for Arya and are ready to write off the lives of her victims.

Please provide quotations for when any one of us wrote of the lives of Arya's victims. Wanting Arya to get a suitable and just punishment, by taking into account her age and the fact she's been manipulated, is not writing off the lives of her victims. You either fail to understand the basics of justice vs vengeance, or you are purposefully misrepresenting what others say. I suspect it's the latter.

8 minutes ago, The Gizzard of Oz said:

Arya should be imprisoned for 10 years for each murder.  That's being generous and merciful.  She can have her freedom back by 30-31 years of age.

Giving Arya, a manipulated and traumatised 12-year-old, the standard 20 year penalty for an adult who has murdered someone of their own free will in cold blood without remorse or any mitigating factors, is not generous or merciful. It is overly harsh. It would serve no rehabilitative purpose at all, but would likely make it so that Arya can never reintegrate into normal society. She is a twelve year old girl who was manipulated into doing the murders. Of course you and your 'friends' don't care about this because you strongly dislike Arya, seek to pin all the blame on her, and want her punished as harshly as possible.

Edited December 9, 2022 by Craving Peaches

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, The Gizzard of Oz said:

Not a single debate participant here is unbiased towards Arya.  I have my own bias.  I will be sharing my own opinion of Arya in the future. 

The disturbing thoughts I see are coming from those who want what's best for Arya and are ready to write off the lives of her victims. I don't agree with those opinions.  Arya is guilty of many murders.  Arya does not have my sympathy.  She needs to pay for the lives of her victims.  Arya should be imprisoned for 10 years for each murder.  That's being generous and merciful.  She can have her freedom back by 30-31 years of age. 

I know of no jurisdiction in which children are treated in such a fashion.

If you feel no sympathy for Arya, then you aren’t reading her story.

[TheLastWolf]

This shit still alive?

[Bowen Marsh]

Permanent imprisonment is not warranted in the real world but allowing Arya to stay free and only report to counseling twice a week is not punishment.  Real world will have her confined in a mental hospital for ten years and kept under observations.  Therapy will be prescribed.  Her youth and remorse would ensure she is released in ten years.  The Braavosi would put her in a stone cell and she will be forgotten. 

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

On 12/3/2022 at 8:58 PM, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

To all participants, I am grateful for your comments.  Just please keep the discussion and disagreement civil.

Just a reminder

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 12/11/2022 at 9:38 PM, Bowen Marsh said:

Permanent imprisonment is not warranted in the real world but allowing Arya to stay free and only report to counseling twice a week is not punishment.  Real world will have her confined in a mental hospital for ten years and kept under observations.  Therapy will be prescribed.  Her youth and remorse would ensure she is released in ten years.  The Braavosi would put her in a stone cell and she will be forgotten. 

I can’t see Arya ever showing remorse. Her conscience is as dead as Sansa’s wolf. Gone in other words. 

[Craving Peaches]

11 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

I can’t see Arya ever showing remorse. Her conscience is as dead as Sansa’s wolf. Gone in other words. 

If Arya no longer has a conscience, why does she repeatedly try to justify Dareon's murder to herself?

[James West]

 We have to decide how to judge Arya.  She is indeed an evil murderer if she still has enough sanity to hold responsible.  She is an unwitting victim if she has lost enough of her sanity to be considered mentally incapacitated to make decisions.  

[Nevets]

5 hours ago, James West said:

 We have to decide how to judge Arya.  She is indeed an evil murderer if she still has enough sanity to hold responsible.  She is an unwitting victim if she has lost enough of her sanity to be considered mentally incapacitated to make decisions.  

You forgot to mention that she is only 11 years old.  Most societies consider children that age incapable of fully appreciating the consequences of their actions.  Consequently, they aren't held fully responsible for crimes and are treated leniently, with a focus on rehabilitation if possible.  

While Arya has mental issues, they are mostly the result of post-traumatic stress from the war, instead of something deep rooted like psychopathy.  As such, she should be readily treatable.  Her compromised mental status during her crimes could get her leniency as well.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Nevets