Arya, the Darkheart

[Brother Seamus]

On 11/10/2022 at 5:35 PM, Craving Peaches said:

Arya is objectively not insane though. There is an accepted definition of the word by medical and legal professionals. Claiming Arya is insane is objectively wrong, based on what the text shows us. If you have a different definition of insane then it isn't really the same thing anymore...

If people are not using it in a medical or legal sense then I think they should clarify. Using the word 'insane' all the time if you don't really mean it is detrimental.

I agree she's not insane, but that's my point. people are using the word in a much looser sense, which, is not incorrect just a different usage and meaning of the word.

[Brother Seamus]

22 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

The justice system in many places in this country can only be described as broke and "woke."  They coddle the criminals.  Insane policies in the name of "social justice" like Prop 47 and Cashless Bail created dangerous crime waves in many cities.  That is obviously not where we want to send Arya.  We want the punishment she deserves rather than what an overly lenient criminal justice system will give.  She needs to be held in a max security detention center for a very long time.  Perhaps for her life span. 

idiotic right-wing propaganda, with no connection to reality. fox is rotting your brain.

[Craving Peaches]

28 minutes ago, Brother Seamus said:

people are using the word in a much looser sense, which, is not incorrect

When speaking of Arya as a criminal I would expect them to be using the word in the legal sense. If they just said 'mad' then maybe, but 'insane' means something specific in the context and if they don't mean it like that, well then it kind of doesn't mean anything...I just feel it's one of those words that has a fixed meaning in the context of crimes and legality.

30 minutes ago, Brother Seamus said:

much looser sense

If it's looser then it isn't really insanity though.

I understand what you're saying, I just really feel in the context it's not one of those words which is down to interpretation/has subjective meanings.

[Brother Seamus]

20 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

When speaking of Arya as a criminal I would expect them to be using the word in the legal sense. If they just said 'mad' then maybe, but 'insane' means something specific in the context and if they don't mean it like that, well then it kind of doesn't mean anything...I just feel it's one of those words that has a fixed meaning in the context of crimes and legality.

If it's looser then it isn't really insanity though.

I understand what you're saying, I just really feel in the context it's not one of those words which is down to interpretation/has subjective meanings.

sure it has subjective meanings. people use insane to just mean extraordinary - beyond normal understanding - all the time. "did you see the game? it was insane!"

and we constantly say that people who do bad things are crazy or insane, meaning we find the person's behavior unfathomable, without really meaning that the person is "technically" insane.

even technically, insane has more than one definition. the legal definition, for an insanity defense, is pretty narrow. I don't think the psychiatry/psychology profession really uses the term in a technical sense, instead classifying people as "psychotic" or "dissociative" or something else. in guardianship law the issue is whether the person is "incapacitated" as a result of mental illness.

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, Brother Seamus said:

sure it has subjective meanings

In this context I think it has an objective meaning.

2 minutes ago, Brother Seamus said:

even technically, insane has more than one definition. the legal definition, for an insanity defense, is pretty narrow. I don't think the psychiatry/psychology profession really uses the term in a technical sense, instead classifying people as "psychotic" or "dissociative" or something else. in guardianship law the issue is whether the person is "incapacitated" as a result of mental illness.

Well the term we use now where I live is 'mental disorder', because insane had negative connotations. Psychiatrists liked this name for the defence better. But 'insane' had a specific legal and medical meaning, because you needed (and still need) psychiatric evidence for the defence to be successful. And certain conditions had to be met.

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

Rehabilitation!  Now that is hypocrisy when applied to Arya Stark.  Arya never gave poor Dareon a chance to rehabilitate.  He was actually an innocent man.  She never gave the Insurance man a chance.  She just murdered them.  Arya doesn't deserve rehab.  She deserves to be locked away where she cannot do any more harm.   But regardless of all that, whether you agree with me or not,  I am glad my post is interesting to you all. 

Happy Thanksgiving!  And please do not invite Arya to your table.  Her manners are lacking.  She might poison the punch.   

Edited November 24, 2022 by H Wadsworth Longfellow

[Craving Peaches]

10 minutes ago, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

Rehabilitation!  Now that is hypocrisy when applied to Arya Stark.  Arya never gave poor Dareon a chance to rehabilitate.  He was actually an innocent man.  She never gave the Insurance man a chance.  She just murdered them.  Arya doesn't deserve rehab.  She deserves to be locked away where she cannot do any more harm.

I would encourage you to consider the relevant details:

• Arya is a nine-year-old child
• Arya was in a vulnerable state of mind
• Arya was manipulated by other people to carrying out those actions

Due to her youth and the influence a stable environment could have on her, I would argue Arya is in a good position to benefit from rehabilitation. Unlike, say, Ramsay or Gregor, Arya does not seem to possess a fundamentally bad character.

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

21 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I would encourage you to consider the relevant details:

• Arya is a nine-year-old child
• Arya was in a vulnerable state of mind
• Arya was manipulated by other people to carrying out those actions

Due to her youth and the influence a stable environment could have on her, I would argue Arya is in a good position to benefit from rehabilitation. Unlike, say, Ramsay or Gregor, Arya does not seem to possess a fundamentally bad character.

Dareon had nothing to do with Arya's misfortunes and hardships.  The old insurance guy was not a party to any of Arya's sufferings.  They were no threat to her.  They had done her no wrong.  They were only the poor casualties of Arya's dark heart.  That heart which yearn for vengeance. 

I have this feeling that your idea of punishment for Arya and mine will be very different.  Do you agree that Arya should serve 20 years jail time for the murders of Dareon, the old Insurance guy, and Raf?  Look, 5 years in juvenile detention is not enough.  Not nearly enough punishment for what Arya has done. 

Edited November 24, 2022 by H Wadsworth Longfellow

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

I have this feeling that your idea of punishment for Arya and mine will be very different.  Do you agree that Arya should serve 20 years jail time for the murders of Dareon, the old Insurance guy, and Raf?  Look, 5 years in juvenile detention is not enough.  Not nearly enough punishment for what Arya has done. 

Where I live 20 years is the standard sentence for an adult who murdered someone with no relevant mitigating circumstances. Arya is a child and has relevant mitigating circumstances, so no, I do not agree she should serve that long. It is not just about punishment, it is about rehabilitating her. A twenty year sentence would fail to do this, it might actually make it impossible for her to return to normal society.

Edit:

Spoiler

There is also a case where a boy roughly 6 years older than Arya was given a 20 year sentence for murder. But there were no mitigating circumstances and I think it's safe to say the attack was much more brutal than Arya's. And one of the judges disagreed and thought he should be given a lesser sentence.

 

Edited November 24, 2022 by Craving Peaches

[Rondo]

Realistically, Arya can take the insanity plea and get sent to a facility to treat her mental illness.  It could be worse than prison or better.  I suppose it is how you see it.  They are both incarceration.  Under no circumstances should Arya be allowed her freedom.  At least not for a long time.  

Edited November 25, 2022 by Rondo

[Craving Peaches]

5 hours ago, Rondo said:

Realistically, Arya can take the insanity plea and get sent to a facility to treat her mental illness.

No she cannot. It is in the name. Insanity plea. Arya is not insane.

What she could do is plead diminished responsibility.

But realistically, she would not be being tried (at least where I live) because she is nine years old.

[SeanF]

21 hours ago, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

Dareon had nothing to do with Arya's misfortunes and hardships.  The old insurance guy was not a party to any of Arya's sufferings.  They were no threat to her.  They had done her no wrong.  They were only the poor casualties of Arya's dark heart.  That heart which yearn for vengeance. 

I have this feeling that your idea of punishment for Arya and mine will be very different.  Do you agree that Arya should serve 20 years jail time for the murders of Dareon, the old Insurance guy, and Raf?  Look, 5 years in juvenile detention is not enough.  Not nearly enough punishment for what Arya has done. 

Honestly, bugger Dareon, and bugger the insurance man.  Each man was a piece of shit.  It's like reading people going on about how Dany killed "good" slavers along with bad ones. 

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Honestly, bugger Dareon, and bugger the insurance man.  Each man was a piece of shit.  It's like reading people going on about how Dany killed "good" slavers along with bad ones

I think the situation with them is more ambiguous than the slavers. Dareon might have been forced to join the Watch on false pretences. We don't know for sure if the insurance man defrauded people. But I doubt any of them were such paragons of virtue that it was like Arya killing a saint. Though I still don't think them being potentially bad people mitigates or justifies Arya's actions. What does mitigate them to me is that Arya was a young child in a vulnerable state of mind who was manipulated in to doing those things.

[Darth Sidious]

On 11/22/2022 at 3:36 AM, Craving Peaches said:

I am surprised that people seem to be in favour of corporeal punishment on a child who wasn't even fully responsible for her actions. With Dareon it is murder, but she was ordered to kill the old man, after some coercion. She's a child. Children are almost never as criminally liable as adults. And Arya has been conditioned and exploited to kill people.

Capital punishment. Which I am not in favor of for the murders of Dareon and the old man. I am asking for locking her up in a mental institution. If and most likely Arya buries more people then I would say capital punishment is then appropriate.  
 

I will accept that Arya has mitigating circumstances. Her mental condition and challenging life experiences. I can see leniency for murdering Raifford. But the old man and Dareon are not connected to the downfall of her father and brother. They were victims. One more victim unrelated to the Stark downfall and I will be calling for a life sentence for Arya. Just one more. 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think the situation with them is more ambiguous than the slavers. Dareon might have been forced to join the Watch on false pretences. We don't know for sure if the insurance man defrauded people. But I doubt any of them were such paragons of virtue that it was like Arya killing a saint. Though I still don't think them being potentially bad people mitigates or justifies Arya's actions. What does mitigate them to me is that Arya was a young child in a vulnerable state of mind who was manipulated in to doing those things.

That’s the main thing.

But it’s the idea she should be imprisoned for life/ mutilated, when POV characters have done far worse to far better people, that is bizarre.

[Craving Peaches]

29 minutes ago, SeanF said:

But it’s the idea she should be imprisoned for life/ mutilated, when POV characters have done far worse to far better people, that is bizarre.

This may be unpopular but I would question whether any of the characters deserve to be mutilated. Life imprisonment, certainly. But should even the worst criminals in the story be hung, drawn and quartered? Not many would feel sorry for them. Yet we have stopped this practice in real life for the most part. The man believed to be behind the Lockerbie Bombing was not executed, for example.

Edited November 25, 2022 by Craving Peaches

[Craving Peaches]

56 minutes ago, Darth Sidious said:

But the old man and Dareon are not connected to the downfall of her father and brother. They were victims.

But she still was in a vulnerable state of mind and being manipulated by others when she killed them.

[SeanF]

22 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

This may be unpopular but I would question whether any of the characters deserve to be mutilated. Life imprisonment, certainly. But should even the worst criminals in the story be hung, drawn and quartered? Not many would feel sorry for them. Yet we have stopped this practice in real life for the most part. The man believed to be behind the Lockerbie Bombing was not executed, for example.

Imprisonment would never be used in this world, save for very highborn people, who would be held in comfortable circumstances.

Otherwise, punishments would range from fines, to whipping, to mutilation, to the Wall, to death, with varying degrees of severity.  Beheading would be for the highborn, hanging for the smallfolk, unless they really wished to make an example.  I expect Ramsay will ultimately get flayed alive, and of course, Stannis is into burning miscreants alive.

Edited November 25, 2022 by SeanF

[Darth Sidious]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

But she still was in a vulnerable state of mind and being manipulated by others when she killed them.

Arya chose to join that murderous cult. She crossed the sea to learn how to kill. The choice was always hers. At no time was Arya robbed of agency. 

[Craving Peaches]

27 minutes ago, Darth Sidious said:

Arya chose to join that murderous cult. She crossed the sea to learn how to kill. The choice was always hers. At no time was Arya robbed of agency. 

I think she was. Her family was taken from her at a younger age, she was exposed to scenes of horrific crimes and then she is given an invitation to join a new 'family' who will teach her how to protect herself.

How much agency does a child have?