Arya, the Darkheart

[Darth Sidious]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think she was. Her family was taken from her at a younger age, she was exposed to scenes of horrific crimes and then she is given an invitation to join a new 'family' who will teach her how to protect herself.

How much agency does a child have?

In Arya’s case, a lot. Though her mental illness mitigates.  Illness is a factor to consider during sentencing. 

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think she was. Her family was taken from her at a younger age, she was exposed to scenes of horrific crimes and then she is given an invitation to join a new 'family' who will teach her how to protect herself.

How much agency does a child have?

Boys as young as ten could be hanged as felons, in medieval England.  I think some here wish to treat Arya the same way.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 hours ago, Darth Sidious said:

Arya chose to join that murderous cult. She crossed the sea to learn how to kill. The choice was always hers. At no time was Arya robbed of agency. 

Well, for starters that simply isn't true. What were her choices at the time? To stay in Westeros & be hunted or go on to the only other place she has been offered a place - she was very much robbed of any agency pretty much the entire time. 

Secondly, these things don't happen in a vacuum, context matters, age matters, extenuating circumstances matter. Maybe not to you, but to any jury with their salt. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Darth Sidious said:

In Arya’s case, a lot. Though her mental illness mitigates.  Illness is a factor to consider during sentencing. 

What mental illness do you speak of? The trauma inflicted upon her by others? 

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Maybe not to you, but to any jury with their salt. 

Unless the jury is the group of users with suspiciously similar opinions, font, spacing, word choice and flow of writing, I don't think there is any chance of Arya being found guilty of murder (where I live, I'd imagine it would be the same in most jurisdictions).

Firstly, because she's nine she wouldn't be tried. If for some reason she is, her defence solicitor can just plead non-age, which would result in an acquittal.

In an alternative universe where for some reason children can be tried and prosecuted, and Arya is charged with murder, I'd say her defence counsel has a good chance of succeeding with a plea of diminished responsibility, which would reduce the charge from murder to culpable homicide (Scottish term for manslaughter) if accepted.

Finally, when the judge is choosing a sentence, Arya's age, lack of previous convictions, vulnerable state of mind, and the manipulation, incitement and coercion used by the Faceless Men to encourage her would all be taken into account.

I would almost be willing to bet my life that there is no chance Arya would ever go to prison for twenty years for what she has done.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

41 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Boys as young as ten could be hanged as felons, in medieval England.  I think some here wish to treat Arya the same way.

Ofc, they won't say the same about young Cersei or Joffrey or Euron.

[Craving Peaches]

4 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Ofc, they won't say the same about young Cersei or Joffrey or Euron.

Or Daenerys.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Or Daenerys.

I wouldn't compare Daenerys as a child to characters who have showed just how cruel and petty they were even at as kids. 

 

Even if she becomes far more violent and ruthless Daenerys certainely isn't comparable to these monsters, and I expect it to be more of a tragedy than something else.

Edited November 25, 2022 by Terrorthatflapsinthenight9

[Craving Peaches]

6 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

I wouldn't compare Daenerys as a child to characters who have showed just how cruel and petty they were even at as kids. 

 

I wasn't comparing her as a child, but at her current age. She is 13-14 if I recall correctly, so still quite young. I expect she will be around 15 when she gets to Westeros. If she commits any atrocities she will be given a free pass by these people because she's the rightful queen or something.

[SeanF]

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I wasn't comparing her as a child, but at her current age. She is 13-14 if I recall correctly, so still quite young. I expect she will be around 15 when she gets to Westeros. If she commits any atrocities she will be given a free pass by these people because she's the rightful queen or something.

Just turned 17 now. We first see her a couple of months short of 13, getting groped by her brother.  I think she had just turned 12, when Illyrio took them in.  Illyrio was very tempted to make her his child mistress, and had to get a lookalike sex slave, instead.

Hers is the longest timeline of all the main POV characters.

Her whole story (like Sansa’s) is full of squick, with much older men hungering for their hot 12/13 year old bodies.

[Craving Peaches]

27 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Just turned 17 now. We first see her a couple of months short of 13, getting groped by her brother.  I think she had just turned 12, when Illyrio took them in.  Illyrio was very tempted to make her his child mistress, and had to get a lookalike sex slave, instead.

Hers is the longest timeline of all the main POV characters.

Her whole story (like Sansa’s) is full of squick, with much older men hungering for their hot 12/13 year old bodies.

Yes, I feel very sorry for Daenerys and I hope the books don't go down the mad queen route. But I think she could do some horrible things and these people would make excuses for her, all while claiming Arya should be hanged 'like the criminal she is'.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

On 11/8/2022 at 6:53 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

I am afraid for King’s Landing and The Twins. Arya will not even think twice about sending thousands to their deaths.  

Fuck the Twins. Kill them all.

[Craving Peaches]

37 minutes ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

Fuck the Twins. Kill them all.

Aside from that the comment's also silly because Arya certainly would think twice about sending thousands of people to their deaths. She doesn't pray to kill everyone. She has a specific list of people she'd like to see dead because of the pain and suffering they inflicted upon her and her family. I don't understand why people ignore the text to try and paint Arya as some omnicidal maniac when she clearly isn't.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

21 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Aside from that the comment's also silly because Arya certainly would think twice about sending thousands of people to their deaths. She doesn't pray to kill everyone. She has a specific list of people she'd like to see dead because of the pain and suffering they inflicted upon her and her family. I don't understand why people ignore the text to try and paint Arya as some omnicidal maniac when she clearly isn't.

They are simply playing the heel. They realize most of the fandom are on the Stark’s side for the most part and are being deliberately obtuse

[Craving Peaches]

10 minutes ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

They are simply playing the heel. They realize most of the fandom are on the Stark’s side for the most part and are being deliberately obtuse

I like the Starks, though I can't say I am their biggest fan, but it's just annoying to see the books ignored completely to favour one character over the other. Even if one doesn't like the Starks, it's plain that they are the wronged party and we are intended to feel sympathy for them.

[Kierria]

Arya will be piling bodies in Winds.  Her crimes will be such that even her fans will not be able to defend her actions any more. 

[Craving Peaches]

6 hours ago, Kierria said:

Arya will be piling bodies in Winds.  Her crimes will be such that even her fans will not be able to defend her actions any more. 

Unless Arya magically becomes an adult with the mental capacity of an adult, and decides to kill innocent people after being completely free of the Faceless Men and their influence, and having treatment for the trauma she's witnessed, there will always be a way to defend her crimes.

[Darth Sidious]

On 11/25/2022 at 2:31 PM, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

What mental illness do you speak of? The trauma inflicted upon her by others? 

I’m talking about Arya’s insanity. 

[Craving Peaches]

47 minutes ago, Darth Sidious said:

I’m talking about Arya’s insanity. 

What insanity? Arya does not meet the legal or medical definition of insanity (at least where I live).

Quote

Held by a Full Bench of seven Judges...that insanity requires proof of total alienation of reason in relation to the act charged as the result of mental illness, mental disease or defect or unsoundness of mind...

Source: Brennan v HMA, 1977 SLT 151

Note that the defence of 'insanity' has been replaced with the defence of 'mental disorder' but the requirement for 'total alienation of reason' remains. It is not enough to just have a mental illness or be of unsound mind, this must result in a complete loss of reason at the time of the crime to qualify for the defence.

Please explain how Arya has demonstrated the requisite 'total alienation of reason'.

I doubt the people of Westeros would think Arya is insane either. She is not prone to an excess of cruelty like 'Mad' Aerys, she isn't hallucinating, there are no signs she has become disconnected from reality, and so on.

Edited November 27, 2022 by Craving Peaches
Clarity

[Nevets]

Arya is not insane, as the term is supposed to be used, but she is hardly in good mental health either.  She clearly has issues; normal children do not kill people who aren't a threat to them or anyone else.  Come to think on it, they generally don't kill those who are a threat either, not that that is relevant here.

Fortunately, I think her problems are mainly the result of recent experiences and her current environment.  Simply being in a normal environment should help.  Having a mentor like Brienne or Jon would be useful as well, but knowing GRRM I wouldn't count on it.

I would be quite shocked and disappointed if she began to kill innocents or even became a real assassin.  And by innocents I mean people Arya has no reason to believe are wrongdoers.  Dareon doesn't qualify; desertion is a capital offense where she comes from.