Twitter 2: Tweet harder

[Madame deVenoge]

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

JQ is new to me written in that way.

Still don't get the blame for us trying to replace other groups when the entirety of our history is just "leave us be." We're not trying to convert anyone. 

That and when Fire and Jace starts to make sense, it’s all like DAYUM.

[The Anti-Targ]

Can you be a Nazi while black (or any skin colour other than white)? I guess it depends one whether you define Nazism as including both anti-semitism and white supremacy. I thought it included both, but I might be wrong. I imagine some proportion of people of colour having some kind of sympathy with right-wing identity politics that concerns negative attitudes towards white people, but I struggle to think that any notable number would be actual white supremacists. I imagine there might be a handful but they would be a rare breed of individual I think.

I wonder why being tagged as anti-semetic without being called a Nazi isn't sufficient condemnation. It feels like being out as simply an anti-semite should be enough.

[Mindwalker]

3 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Can you be a Nazi while black (or any skin colour other than white)? I guess it depends one whether you define Nazism as including both anti-semitism and white supremacy. I thought it included both, but I might be wrong. I imagine some proportion of people of colour having some kind of sympathy with right-wing identity politics that concerns negative attitudes towards white people, but I struggle to think that any notable number would be actual white supremacists. I imagine there might be a handful but they would be a rare breed of individual I think.

I wonder why being tagged as anti-semetic without being called a Nazi isn't sufficient condemnation. It feels like being out as simply an anti-semite should be enough.

I think it includes both, but there are definitely several black persons who support/ promote white supremacy, like Candace Owens, or that Youtuber who's also crazy... sorry, forgot his name. similar to Peterson... There are also trans people who support the anti-trans sentiment, like K. Jenner, and many women who support patriarchy...

[Mindwalker]

I only now read that we're supposed to move on from the Nazi term.

Anyway, I call such people "Uncle/ Auntie" for obvious reasons. Like Uncle Rubin.

[Varysblackfyre321]

26 minutes ago, Fire and Jace said:

Yeah sometimes I'm glad to be an internet illiterate.

37 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Well to be fair I attend more politically extreme channels on the internet.

26 minutes ago, Fire and Jace said:

No red pills for Jace. 

You know that’s usually a matrix Refrence but interestingly enough can work as a total recall one—except there it’s more heavily implied taking the red pill just ended in someone living out a fantasy before dying.

20 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Still don't get the blame for us trying to replace other groups when the entirety of our history is just "leave us be." We're not trying to convert anyone.

It is easier to fear monger about more insular communities as nefarious.

[Jace, Extat]

27 minutes ago, Chataya de Fleury said:

That and when Fire and Jace starts to make sense, it’s all like DAYUM.

Nahz nah tazzteh!

Tazz dizza drozz pah tah! Pahz dizz tah tazz tahs tazza tuh tuzz! 

 

[DMC]

Colloquially "Nazi" is pretty damn interchangeable with fascism or being fascistic.  Gotta be really fucking semantically anal to have a problem with that outside of an academic setting. 

OTOH, I don't know or care much about Kanye, but from what I am aware of I don't think he's necessarily fascistic, just antisemitic.  In which case he's just racist - which of course black people can be too.  Hell, there are way too many people throughout the world that are antisemitic but not fascistic.

[karaddin]

At the point where you're admiring Hitler to the point of wanting to name a fucking album after him, and then name it after yourself when you can't do that, I think you get to fucking handle having that word tossed at you. It's significantly beyond "mere" antisemitism.

And yeah, minority members can certainly be Nazis, the rest will happily use them as long as they're useful and then murder them all in a purge with a snappy name. So they're either fucking idiots who don't pay attention to history or they're self hating to the point they might accept their doomed status (looking at Milo here) but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Trying to use the old academic racism vs layman racism argument to concern troll about a black man being called a Nazi - which has never been treated the same way - as a gotcha is an approach I haven't seen before.

[DMC]

6 minutes ago, karaddin said:

It's significantly beyond "mere" antisemitism.

I think this is my problem with this discussion.  Juxtaposing Nazism or fascism with "mere" antisemitism.  Antisemitism has been around and a systemic problem for centuries, hell millennia, before the word fascism was even invented.  It isn't "mere" in comparison, at all.  It's enough all on its own.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, karaddin said:

So they're either fucking idiots who don't pay attention to history or they're self hating to the point they might accept their doomed status (looking at Milo here)

Whose working on West’s 2024 Presidential campaign *

[Heartofice]

We shouldn’t be giving someone like Kanye any more emotional space. The guy is clearly mentally very unwell and anyone giving him a platform is taking advantage of him and helping to create his own destruction. Let the guy go away, get help and hopefully get better.

And no; I don’t think he should be allowed on Twitter. I don’t think Trump should be either. I’d say spewing racist hatred , threatening to invade countries or start riots would be a very good case for banning. I don’t see a good argument against it. That does also mean a lot of other people should be taken off Twitter as well, the rules just need to be consistent.

5 hours ago, karaddin said:

Trying to use the old academic racism vs layman racism argument to concern troll about a black man being called a Nazi - which has never been treated the same way - as a gotcha is an approach I haven't seen before.

The old ‘power + privilege’ definition of racism is unfortunately one that a lot of people buy into because it allows them to say that minority people literally cannot be racist. Thankfully so far nobody on this thread buys into it, though I’ve certainly seen people on this board trot it out in the past. It certainly shouldn’t be used to excuse what Kanye said.

[Varysblackfyre321]

31 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

That does also mean a lot of other people should be taken off Twitter as well, the rules just need to be consistent.

 If Twitter actually upheald it’s TOS 8 months ago a lot more prominent right wing figures would have been banned or suspended—rarely were they ever punished for breaking TOS.

Rarer now they will be.

31 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

The old ‘power + privilege’ definition of racism is unfortunately one that a lot of people buy into because it allows them to say that minority people literally cannot be racist.

And unfortunately here it was a deflection from having to talk about Musk reinstating/promoting a prolific anti-Semite among other alt-right groups and figures.

Next time West says something to the effect of “I’m going to deatcon on Jews” and doesn’t get suspended or banned will Twitter in yours be the Nazi hellscape you mocked liberals for fearing?

31 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Thankfully so far nobody on this thread buys into it,

I mean besides the one guy who here who brought it up to deflect criticism from West.

Like the person Karadan is responding too.

31 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

though I’ve certainly seen people on this board trot it out in the past.

Oh you’re also gesturing to imagined hypocrisy to distract too.

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

15 hours ago, cock_merchant said:

Black people have no power or ability to harm white Jews in America as a community. But yeah, call black public figures nazis. 

Black people absolutely do have the ability to be bigots and make bigoted statements as Mr. West has.  Bigotry has nothing to do with relative power.  It has everything to do with demonstrating prejudice toward group of people based upon the individual bigot’s bigotry as Mr. West has demonstrated.

[mormont]

16 hours ago, Ran said:

TIL Many Palestinians are Nazis. 

Which is another way of saying that we should drop this "Nazi" talk, because it's broadly imprecise and is a questionable rhetorical strategy, at best, when considering Kanye West or indeed many other people who may be antisemitic but who are not in fact Nazis.

The conflation of terms like 'racist', 'bigot' and 'Nazi' doesn't help, certainly. But more pernicious by far is the trope of identifying Jewish people as 'white' and therefore (the argument runs) immune to racism. It's a tactic used by anti-Semites to deny the existence and history of anti-Semitic bigotry. 

Let's be clear: even aside from the fact that significant communities of black and brown Jewish people exist, Jewish people as a group are clearly not 'white' in the sense that we mean when we discuss bigotry and racism. Some have a degree of passing privilege, but as a group, Jewish people have been and are subject to targeting for racist attacks and have suffered systemic racism on the basis of their (non-white) ethnicity. 

[Gorn]

1 hour ago, mormont said:

The conflation of terms like 'racist', 'bigot' and 'Nazi' doesn't help, certainly. But more pernicious by far is the trope of identifying Jewish people as 'white' and therefore (the argument runs) immune to racism. It's a tactic used by anti-Semites to deny the existence and history of anti-Semitic bigotry. 

Let's be clear: even aside from the fact that significant communities of black and brown Jewish people exist, Jewish people as a group are clearly not 'white' in the sense that we mean when we discuss bigotry and racism. Some have a degree of passing privilege, but as a group, Jewish people have been and are subject to targeting for racist attacks and have suffered systemic racism on the basis of their (non-white) ethnicity. 

Coming from a 100% white country where a genocide happened because of bigotry less than 30 years ago, I find the entire argument of white people being immune to racism to be ridiculous. Also, incredibly Western-centric and narrow-viewed.

[karaddin]

10 hours ago, DMC said:

I think this is my problem with this discussion.  Juxtaposing Nazism or fascism with "mere" antisemitism.  Antisemitism has been around and a systemic problem for centuries, hell millennia, before the word fascism was even invented.  It isn't "mere" in comparison, at all.  It's enough all on its own.

I hope my quotes around mere made it clear I don't view it that way either and were meant to make this same point.

Mormont - the closest I can get to trying to articulate it is that Jewish people with white skin aren't people of color, but they also aren't white in the sense that it's used for these discussions.

[mormont]

Jewish people don't have white privilege, would be the short and pithy version. 

The more complex version is that race as we understand it is a social construct, and hence so is racism. But I don't want to derail the thread any further by getting into that in detail. 

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Gorn said:

Coming from a 100% white country where a genocide happened because of bigotry less than 30 years ago, I find the entire argument of white people being immune to racism to be ridiculous. Also, incredibly Western-centric and narrow-viewed.

Modern neo-Nazis are almost always white supremacists.  But, Hitler was not.  There were groups of white people whom he deemed suitable only for extermination, or enslavement.

[Gorn]

23 minutes ago, mormont said:

Jewish people don't have white privilege, would be the short and pithy version. 

The more complex version is that race as we understand it is a social construct, and hence so is racism. But I don't want to derail the thread any further by getting into that in detail. 

Short and pithy answers also happen to be wrong.

[Heartofice]

The issue for many on the left is that if your definition of racism is centred around which group has power and privilege then it's not surprising you suddenly feel it's ok to be prejudiced against Jewish people. If some Jewish people happen to be successful and have power and privilege then in those people's minds they aren't just white they are 'ultra white'.

That's one of the many reasons why that whole definition creates more problems than it solves.