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Was it only Cersei's idea for Jaime to join the KG?


Castellan
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Cersei's visits Jaime, numbs his brain with fantastic sex, and urges him to join the Kingsguard so they can remain together in KL. She is in panic at the idea he will be married off to Lysa Tully. His misgivings about losing his birthright - Casterly Rock and the Westerlands - are overcome. Cersei is a frightened person who doesn't want to lose her narcissist supply, Jaime is a great golden fool.

If the Harrenhal tourney was in fact a place to conspire to remove Aerys in favour of Rhaegar, with the main need to get the powerful Tywin to meet with the Northerners, then Jaime's surprise induction into the KG and immediate dismissal to KL squashed that flat. It seems a bit coincidental. I can't help wondering if Varys somehow dropped a hint to Cersei. At the least I suppose it was his idea to time it for the Tourney. We don't know Varys's motives but he certainly did support Aerys and it seems likely he was on top of whatever plotting was abroad.

Then again I can't imagine him saying it directly to Cersei. Could he have done something more subtle?

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3 hours ago, Castellan said:

Cersei's visits Jaime, numbs his brain with fantastic sex, and urges him to join the Kingsguard so they can remain together in KL. She is in panic at the idea he will be married off to Lysa Tully. His misgivings about losing his birthright - Casterly Rock and the Westerlands - are overcome. Cersei is a frightened person who doesn't want to lose her narcissist supply, Jaime is a great golden fool.

If the Harrenhal tourney was in fact a place to conspire to remove Aerys in favour of Rhaegar, with the main need to get the powerful Tywin to meet with the Northerners, then Jaime's surprise induction into the KG and immediate dismissal to KL squashed that flat. It seems a bit coincidental. I can't help wondering if Varys somehow dropped a hint to Cersei. At the least I suppose it was his idea to time it for the Tourney. We don't know Varys's motives but he certainly did support Aerys and it seems likely he was on top of whatever plotting was abroad.

Then again I can't imagine him saying it directly to Cersei. Could he have done something more subtle?

Fantastic sex?  By his own admission, she's the only quim he's ever had.  That subject is give and take, and all she can do is take. Beauty is pointless if you are evil.  She is.  There's no way she's any good - all she can think of is herself.  That's gonna carry over into bed.  She'd be awful, regardless of her looks.  Men aren't that stupid and shallow...can you imagine Cercie pillow talk?  She'd just immediately ignore what just transpired and jump right into how she could leverage you into defeating her imagined rivals.  She's like a 13th century tik-tok THOT.

As soon as Jaime is able to find a connection and he doesn't feel used during it, he's going to complete his arc of abandoning her.  Men aren't just unthinking schlongs.

Edited by Ring3r
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Well, let's assume that appointing Jaime to the KG had some motive other than just tweaking Tywin's tail. But long-term it was a disastrous policy. If Jaime had stayed at Harrenhal, had unhorsed the Knight of the Laughing Tree and Rhaegar in the tourney, the whole Rhaegar-Lyanna business might never have happened, and the Targs would still sit the Iron Throne. And Aerys's policy of keeping Jaime close to him to serve as a hostage (a) did nothing to stop Tywin turning on Aerys and sacking Kings Landing anyway and (b) put Jaime in prime position to assassinate Aerys in due course.

Now possibly Aerys loyalists were concerned about Jaime's forthcoming marriage to Lysa Tully bringing the Lannisters into the STAB group which would then be far too powerful. But one wonders whether having Tywin in the mix would actually help or hinder that group. He's used to being in charge, and the STAB group was presumably formed in part out of protection against Tywin (as Aerys's Hand) so he might actually disrupt that alliance and make it less effective: he's not a natural fit with them. In the event all four houses swing into action pretty unanimously, and Tywin sides with them out of self-interest anyway.

While some of what transpired couldn't be foreseen, there are enough holes in the plan that it's unlikely someone as cautious as Varys would want to roll the dice on that plot. It seems like more of an Aerys original.

Further, are we sure Varys was so personally loyal to Aerys? His actions during ASoIaF appear to be in the service of the Targaryen dynasty (Daenerys and Aegon) rather than any vestigial loyalty to Aerys. If his loyalty was essentially dynastic, he would prioritise survival of the house, and given the state of Aerys a Rhaegar regency with the support of all the lords of the realm might have been more promising anyway, so he'd be looking to support Rhaegar's alleged planned coup rather than break it up.

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2 hours ago, Adelstein said:

Further, are we sure Varys was so personally loyal to Aerys? His actions during ASoIaF appear to be in the service of the Targaryen dynasty (Daenerys and Aegon) rather than any vestigial loyalty to Aerys. If his loyalty was essentially dynastic, he would prioritise survival of the house, and given the state of Aerys a Rhaegar regency with the support of all the lords of the realm might have been more promising anyway, so he'd be looking to support Rhaegar's alleged planned coup rather than break it up.

Agreed. Varys seems to have very inconsistent loyalties. I doubt they'll ever fully make sense to us.

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8 hours ago, Castellan said:

Cersei's visits Jaime, numbs his brain with fantastic sex, and urges him to join the Kingsguard so they can remain together in KL. She is in panic at the idea he will be married off to Lysa Tully. His misgivings about losing his birthright - Casterly Rock and the Westerlands - are overcome. Cersei is a frightened person who doesn't want to lose her narcissist supply, Jaime is a great golden fool.

If the Harrenhal tourney was in fact a place to conspire to remove Aerys in favour of Rhaegar, with the main need to get the powerful Tywin to meet with the Northerners, then Jaime's surprise induction into the KG and immediate dismissal to KL squashed that flat. It seems a bit coincidental. I can't help wondering if Varys somehow dropped a hint to Cersei. At the least I suppose it was his idea to time it for the Tourney. We don't know Varys's motives but he certainly did support Aerys and it seems likely he was on top of whatever plotting was abroad.

Then again I can't imagine him saying it directly to Cersei. Could he have done something more subtle?

Not necessarily. Jaime is a fool whose only quality is being able to swash a buckler and even if Cersei didn’t want him, he would’ve wanted to be a KG, the top a swordsman can ever reach.

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4 hours ago, Adelstein said:

Further, are we sure Varys was so personally loyal to Aerys? His actions during ASoIaF appear to be in the service of the Targaryen dynasty (Daenerys and Aegon) rather than any vestigial loyalty to Aerys. If his loyalty was essentially dynastic, he would prioritise survival of the house, and given the state of Aerys a Rhaegar regency with the support of all the lords of the realm might have been more promising anyway, so he'd be looking to support Rhaegar's alleged planned coup rather than break it up.

It is this kind of thing that makes me think that Varys is for the Blackfyres.

He claims to have the realm’s best interest in his heart but all he’s done so far,going as far back as Harrenhal, have only served to destabilize the realm and worsen things and we know he is a quite capable individual, I highly doubt he first failed to prevent RR and then Wot5K when it was his actions or inaction that resulted in both of these. Him being a proTargaryen also makes little sense, he was using Daenerys and Viserys as pawns, pawns whose actions would wound the realm even further. It is only after her dragons hatch and later she gets an army that Dany’s role in his and Illyrio’s schemes are altered and she becomes more valuable and yet the intended role is still in benefit of fAegon.

Edited by Corvo the Crow
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22 hours ago, Castellan said:

Cersei's visits Jaime, numbs his brain with fantastic sex, and urges him to join the Kingsguard so they can remain together in KL. She is in panic at the idea he will be married off to Lysa Tully. His misgivings about losing his birthright - Casterly Rock and the Westerlands - are overcome. Cersei is a frightened person who doesn't want to lose her narcissist supply, Jaime is a great golden fool.

If the Harrenhal tourney was in fact a place to conspire to remove Aerys in favour of Rhaegar, with the main need to get the powerful Tywin to meet with the Northerners, then Jaime's surprise induction into the KG and immediate dismissal to KL squashed that flat. It seems a bit coincidental. I can't help wondering if Varys somehow dropped a hint to Cersei. At the least I suppose it was his idea to time it for the Tourney. We don't know Varys's motives but he certainly did support Aerys and it seems likely he was on top of whatever plotting was abroad.

Then again I can't imagine him saying it directly to Cersei. Could he have done something more subtle?

No .Aerys , who wanted to eliminate Tywin as a threat , Gerold Hghtower who wanted to checkmate Lannister ambitions and Arthur Dayne and Rhaegar who wanted the best for the Kingsguard .

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20 hours ago, Ring3r said:

Fantastic sex?  ......Men aren't just unthinking schlongs.

Hmmm. In being flippant, I certainly wasn’t intending to malign the entire male sex. Certainly, sex with your sister who is, as is shown in the text, using sex to manipulate you, ain’t the best, but it might seem like it. Jaime is relatively unthinking, especially at this age, despite being smart. As the wiki says:

Jaime is a born warrior, with little interest in politics and court intrigue. He takes few things seriously.[15] By his own admission, Jaime only feels truly alive when fighting or making love.[11] …  Jaime is rash, headstrong, and angers quickly.[28][29] He is known to have little patience,[23] and he worries about the consequences of his actions only after committing the act.[30]

Jaime's reunion with Cersei comes after they have been separated for four years. Its not clear if this is a total separation or, more likely, that while a squire in the Riverlands he had to spend most of his time there while Cersei was in Kl with her father.

On returning home to Casterly Rock he stops at KL, primarily to visit Cersei. She tells him that their father plans to marry him to Lysa Tully, and outlines her scheme to have him join the Kingguard and replace the old member who has just died. She knows her father will be furious but argues he will be powerless to do anything about it when presented as a fait accompli. This is what follows:

 “But,” Jaime said, “there’s Casterly Rock…”

  “Is it a rock you want? Or me?”

He remembered that night as if it was yesterday. They spent it in an old Inn in Eel Alley, well away from watchful eyes. Cersei had come to him dressed as a simple serving wench, which somehow excited him all the more. he had never seen her more passionate. Every time he went to sleep, she woke him again. By morning, Casterly Rock seemed a small price to pay to be near her always. He gave his consent, and Cersei promised to do the rest.

Jaime equates her passion with love and commitment when what she is about is incredibly obvious. He also equates his own love with sex, hence his determination to have sex immediately on seeing her in KL, even if its on an alter next to their dead son!

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20 hours ago, Adelstein said:

Well, let's assume that appointing Jaime to the KG had some motive other than just tweaking Tywin's tail. But long-term it was a disastrous policy. If Jaime had stayed at Harrenhal, had unhorsed the Knight of the Laughing Tree and Rhaegar in the tourney, the whole Rhaegar-Lyanna business might never have happened, and the Targs would still sit the Iron Throne. And Aerys's policy of keeping Jaime close to him to serve as a hostage (a) did nothing to stop Tywin turning on Aerys and sacking Kings Landing anyway and (b) put Jaime in prime position to assassinate Aerys in due course.

Now possibly Aerys loyalists were concerned about Jaime's forthcoming marriage to Lysa Tully bringing the Lannisters into the STAB group which would then be far too powerful. But one wonders whether having Tywin in the mix would actually help or hinder that group. He's used to being in charge, and the STAB group was presumably formed in part out of protection against Tywin (as Aerys's Hand) so he might actually disrupt that alliance and make it less effective: he's not a natural fit with them. In the event all four houses swing into action pretty unanimously, and Tywin sides with them out of self-interest anyway.

While some of what transpired couldn't be foreseen, there are enough holes in the plan that it's unlikely someone as cautious as Varys would want to roll the dice on that plot. It seems like more of an Aerys original.

Further, are we sure Varys was so personally loyal to Aerys? His actions during ASoIaF appear to be in the service of the Targaryen dynasty (Daenerys and Aegon) rather than any vestigial loyalty to Aerys. If his loyalty was essentially dynastic, he would prioritise survival of the house, and given the state of Aerys a Rhaegar regency with the support of all the lords of the realm might have been more promising anyway, so he'd be looking to support Rhaegar's alleged planned coup rather than break it up.

I think the Northerners would want Tywin to join in displacing Aerys. I would think a relatively bloodless coup would be the aim. After all, if Rhaegar was made king even the super Targ loyalists would probably accept it, its the same dynasty. Tywin would only have to remain passive and not send his forces to fight for Aerys, or revenge him. The risk would be approaching Tywin and being rejected and informed on.

I really don't know what Varys's motives were. We know at the end he was telling Aerys not to let Tywin's forces into KL while Pycelle traitorously urged him to. I don't know why but I had got the idea somewhere that Aerys turning up at the tourney was somehow Varys' idea.

I kind of like the Blackfyre idea because its an emotional motive and other purely mercenary motives seem to collapse when you look at his actions. 

I can see your point that getting Jaime in the KG sounds more like an Aerys original, though.

Edited by Castellan
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58 minutes ago, Castellan said:

Hmmm. In being flippant, I certainly wasn’t intending to malign the entire male sex. Certainly, sex with your sister who is, as is shown in the text, using sex to manipulate you, ain’t the best, but it might seem like it. Jaime is relatively unthinking, especially at this age, despite being smart. As the wiki says:

Jaime is a born warrior, with little interest in politics and court intrigue. He takes few things seriously.[15] By his own admission, Jaime only feels truly alive when fighting or making love.[11] …  Jaime is rash, headstrong, and angers quickly.[28][29] He is known to have little patience,[23] and he worries about the consequences of his actions only after committing the act.[30]

Jaime's reunion with Cersei comes after they have been separated for four years. Its not clear if this is a total separation or, more likely, that while a squire in the Riverlands he had to spend most of his time there while Cersei was in Kl with her father.

On returning home to Casterly Rock he stops at KL, primarily to visit Cersei. She tells him that their father plans to marry him to Lysa Tully, and outlines her scheme to have him join the Kingguard and replace the old member who has just died. She knows her father will be furious but argues he will be powerless to do anything about it when presented as a fait accompli. This is what follows:

 “But,” Jaime said, “there’s Casterly Rock…”

  “Is it a rock you want? Or me?”

He remembered that night as if it was yesterday. They spent it in an old Inn in Eel Alley, well away from watchful eyes. Cersei had come to him dressed as a simple serving wench, which somehow excited him all the more. he had never seen her more passionate. Every time he went to sleep, she woke him again. By morning, Casterly Rock seemed a small price to pay to be near her always. He gave his consent, and Cersei promised to do the rest.

Jaime equates her passion with love and commitment when what she is about is incredibly obvious. He also equates his own love with sex, hence his determination to have sex immediately on seeing her in KL, even if its on an alter next to their dead son!

Haha I know.  But it's certainly a very prevalent trope.  The dumb strong guy.  It's nice to see it subverted sometimes.

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