Battles that should have happened ?

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Many times in the history of A Song Of Ice and Fire there have been occasions where a big battle was teased to happen, and yet it didn't happen due to circumstances that to the belligerents deciding to scrap their plans to do something else in a change of plans, errors of communication, or belligerents being killed before it can happen or negociations somehow happening and working out.

Of these battles that could have happened but didn't, which ones would you really have liked to see happening ? 

Which are the battles which you think should have taken place ? What would have been the consequences of these battles in function of the victors ?

[Craving Peaches]

Stannis' pathetic little army being absolutely destroyed by Renly's knights. Then the survivors, if there are any, flee back to Dragonstone with their tails between their legs, completely humiliated.

All hail King Renly!

[Arthur Peres]

Renly march on KL and the face off against Tywin... instead Renly proved himself to be a cooper King and let the realm bleed.

"It's a poor King who wages war against his own lords, and leaves his kingdom to be burned, bloody and strew with corpses".

 

Stannis move to King's Landing while letting a hostile army three times his size on his rear is beyond moronic...He should have moved against that army. It was large, but it was mostly made out of infantry, he had the quality advantage and the cavalry to suprise them, he had the lord that those men own alligiance to in his army, he could have scatered them with a quick charge and take control of the ones that surrender and with his position secured, them he should have moved against KL.

[James Steller]

The Red Kraken vs The Oakenfist

The battle didn't happen because of Tess, the heroine who prevented a bloodbath by opening the Red Kraken's throat in his sleep. We don't know what would have happened in the battle since both commanders were young, highly accomplished, and very experienced at sea. I'd have liked to see it happen, ideally to see House Velaryon destroy the Ironborn in battle so they feel the sense of defeat, but I don't think it should have happened. Alyn only found Prince Viserys because he returned alive and well from his voyage. And even if he survived the battle, he might still not have met with House Rogare's representative in Dorne. And it was only that which really helped undermine Unwin Peake during the regency period of Aegon III. As a result, Tess's actions were utterly heroic, and I think House Velaryon should have honoured her name and memory.

Stannis Baratheon's Alternate Campaign

This one's a bit vague because a lot would have had to happen for this to work out properly. And yes, I know the Battle of Blackwater happened, but that's not what I mean; Tywin defeated Stannis by surprise, when he was already embroiled in the battle outside King's Landing. 

What I'm talking about is the idea that Robb Stark and Edmure Tully, rather than declaring the North and Riverlands an independent kingdom, send envoys to Stannis, offering their support to put him on the throne. This means that Stannis would have completely changed his military campaign, maybe not listened to Melisandre either given that she was wrong about nobody supporting him. Sure, he might still have gone to Storm's End, but he would have had the option to sail north to join Robb and Edmure, maintain the sea blockade of King's Landing, and go after Tywin to nullify House Lannister's strength. Or maybe he would have coordinated something where Robb and Edmure keep Tywin pinned down while he secures the Stormlands for himself before successfully taking King's Landing.

I wish that we'd gotten this chain of events because then it could have led to a much more positive outcome for people that I like and support in the story. Robb Stark doesn't break his wedding vows, Theon doesn't necessarily betray House Stark, and even if he does, it doesn't play out the same way as before. Plus Stannis was by far the most competent candidate for the throne. A king doesn't have to be liked, he has to be committed to ruling justly. And Stannis, for all his faults, proved himself not only a "truly just man", but also a man who valued people on merit rather than their rank or their name. Davos Seaworth rose far because of who he was, not what he was. Stannis wouldn't have been content to play "the game" which Renly was playing, or give in to sadistic pursuits like Joffrey, and he's already proved that he could defeat the best of the Ironborn on their home turf. Stannis was no perfect man, and we can talk about his flaws, but they don't eliminate the positive traits he showed, which is why I wanted to see Robb and Edmure join their power to his rather than go on some foolish separatist stance which alienated them from everyone else.

Note, of course, that's assuming things play out in AGOT the way they did up to the point of the Northern council with the Riverlords. But assuming they didn't, there are other opportunities, such as:

Ser Loras Tyrell vs. Ser Gregor Clegane

Loras Tyrell was gung ho to lead the expedition authorised by Eddard Stark to bring the Mountain to justice. Stark turns him down because he doesn't want someone too hot-headed to take charge, but frankly, I think it was the wrong call. Having Gregor and Tywin responsible for Loras Tyrell's death would have driven a stake between House Lannister and House Tyrell, one which would not have been forgiven. Hell, the Tyrells still hate Oberyn Martell because of a tourney injury against Willas, which Willas himself forgave a long time ago. Now imagine if the favoured knight, the heroic and dashing youth who charmed thousands, gets cut down in a brutal ambush while trying to bring about the King's Justice? Tywin would never have recovered any kind of alliance from that mess. Which leads me to...

Robert Baratheon vs. Tywin Lannister

This one is tough to sell, for obvious reasons. The assumption is that Eddard manages to successfully tell Robert the truth about his 'children', and finally pushes Robert out of his cowardly lethargy into doing something decisive. Granted, I don't think Tommen and Myrcella deserved death, but I wouldn't have wept to see Cersei and Joffrey get the axe. And that would have meant a war with the Westerlands, of course. And assuming that Loras is killed by that point, the Reach would either sit it out or actively support the Crown (maybe Renly's plan to marry Margaery off to Robert works after all). Dorne would also be persuaded to join in, given that it would finally be justice for Elia Martell and her children. It would also reconcile Stannis with Robert, since the two of them always worked best during a war, and Stannis would have had the means to sail around Westeros and take on Lannisport and Casterly Rock from the sea while Robert, Eddard, Edmure, and who knows who else goes after House Lannister by land. The victors would have had a more unified realm, a completely humiliated and defeated House Lannister, which presumably also means that a lot of the debts to the Iron Throne get absolved and nullified in the process as part of war terms, and Joffrey never lives long enough to tear the kingdoms apart. 

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Arthur Peres said:

Renly march on KL and the face off against Tywin... instead Renly proved himself to be a cooper King and let the realm bleed.

Realistically, Renly, Stannis and Robb should all have agreed to a temporary truce until the Lannisters were dealt with. They presumably hate the Lannisters more than they hate each other.

1 minute ago, Arthur Peres said:

"It's a poor King who wages war against his own lords, and leaves his kingdom to be burned, bloody and strew with corpses".

No matter what Renly does the kingdom bleeds.

[James Steller]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

Realistically, Renly, Stannis and Robb should all have agreed to a temporary truce until the Lannisters were dealt with. They presumably hate the Lannisters more than they hate each other.

Honestly, I don't think that's necessarily true. I don't recall Renly ever talking about his hatred for House Lannister, but he's pretty clear in his dislike for Stannis.

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, James Steller said:

I don't recall Renly ever talking about his hatred for House Lannister

I got the impression he really didn't like the Lannisters. He openly mocks Joffrey in front of everyone and goes on about how Cersei was going to kill him, and he was trying to replace her with Margaery. He doesn't like Stannis much, but he didn't have a problem with him until Stannis went out of his way to attack him.

[Arthur Peres]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

No matter what Renly does the kingdom bleeds.

We already have this conversation, and you know that I belive that Renly could have ended all by taking King's Landing, and he was the only one with enough streght to do it, but choose not to and let the others bleed dry.

 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

I would have loved to see Robb's plan to retake the Moat Cailin into action, the one that would have happened if the Red Wedding hadn't taken place. 

[Craving Peaches]

5 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

We already have this conversation, and you know that I belive that Renly could have ended all by taking King's Landing, and he was the only one with enough streght to do it, but choose not to and let the others bleed dry.

I'm aware, it's just the kingdom would still be bleeding in this scenario because there would still be battles left to fight and Renly would have lost more men taking the city then he would sieging it from afar.

[Craving Peaches]

Robert and co. vs Dothraki

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

The northern forces led by Ser Rodrik, Wyman Manderly, Cley Cerwyn, Robert Glover, Alysanne Mormont, Barbrey Dustin and Lord Ryswell fighting back against the Ironborn during ACOK and ASOS with them liberating Deepwood Motte and then Moat Cailin from the squids. 

[Ring3r]

I very much would have liked to see what would have happened if anyone tried open combat in the Neck.  It would be absolute suicide....a conventional force against a bunch of mobile, stealthy, poison-using guerilla fighters.  As it is, they took a toll on the few people willing to even step foot on their land.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

It's also interesting to think what could have happened if Maegor had been far less sluggish and tame, I suspect that he actually had a realization that he was barren and that this caused him to become depressive and lose most of his fighting spirit, and had decided to move against Jaehaerys and Rogar Baratheon as soon as possible instead of allowing the realm to rally around his nephew.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

13 hours ago, Ring3r said:

I very much would have liked to see what would have happened if anyone tried open combat in the Neck.  It would be absolute suicide....a conventional force against a bunch of mobile, stealthy, poison-using guerilla fighters.  As it is, they took a toll on the few people willing to even step foot on their land.

This makes me wonder how Rickard Stark the Laughing Wolf managed to beat the Marsh King and annexe the Neck to the North. 

Dude must have been cunning like the devil, and perhaps had some supernatural help (such as being a greenseer and/or skinchanger) to be able of achieving that.

[Canon Claude]

24 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

This makes me wonder how Rickard Stark the Laughing Wolf managed to beat the Marsh King and annexe the Neck to the North. 

Dude must have been cunning like the devil, and perhaps had some supernatural help (such as being a greenseer and/or skinchanger) to be able of achieving that.

It would be really cool to see that campaign. But something tells me that it was much less about combat and more about negotiations

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

4 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

It would be really cool to see that campaign. But something tells me that it was much less about combat and more about negotiations

It might be a combination of both. Maybe there was truly a victory of Rickard Stark, but also the Marsh King or his daughter realized that House Stark had a role to play in the second Long Night, or that the Starks revealed that they were unifying the North partially for this purpose, and ended up joining the North willingly. Each of the three scenarios are possible. 

[Alester Florent]

On 11/12/2022 at 10:52 PM, Craving Peaches said:

I got the impression he really didn't like the Lannisters. He openly mocks Joffrey in front of everyone and goes on about how Cersei was going to kill him, and he was trying to replace her with Margaery. He doesn't like Stannis much, but he didn't have a problem with him until Stannis went out of his way to attack him.

I agree. Renly and Stannis don't get on, but it is a sibling rivalry. Renly would rather have Stannis on his side, but can live without Stannis's support. But he seems to despise Joffrey and fear Cersei. Stannis might execute him for treason if he captures him (but probably wouldn't, because of the kinslaying taboo), but he knows Cersei (or Joff) would have his head off because thy felt like it, to prove a point, or to strengthen their own position.

 

On 11/12/2022 at 10:55 PM, Arthur Peres said:

We already have this conversation, and you know that I belive that Renly could have ended all by taking King's Landing, and he was the only one with enough streght to do it, but choose not to and let the others bleed dry.

It's a perfectly cromulent military strategy. There are four armies (Robb, Roose Bolton, Tywin and Stannis) roaming around within rough striking distance of King's Landing, and most if not all of them have capable commanders. Advancing into this territory and settling down for a siege of the capital is inviting his enormous and therefore rather unwieldy army to be outmanoeuvred or have its supply lines cut. Even if he succeeds, taking King's Landing does not automatically mean winning the war. Once he takes the city, he has to re-fortify it, garrison it and then redeploy to deal with the rival field armies, a war he will be going into with a much-reduced force from the one he started with, thanks to the casualties of the campaign and the troops left behind as garrison.

Much safer to let the rival armies destroy each other with no cost to himself then roll in and clean up once they're exhausted. Or even just wait for the citizens of King's Landing to rise up and overthrow the Lannisters themselves, which they gave a pretty good go.

[astarkchoice]

14 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

This makes me wonder how Rickard Stark the Laughing Wolf managed to beat the Marsh King and annexe the Neck to the North. 

Dude must have been cunning like the devil, and perhaps had some supernatural help (such as being a greenseer and/or skinchanger) to be able of achieving that.

Its said the old stark kings of  the north took their enemies daughters to wife and one of the enemies they beat was the 'warg king' !!!!  It seems highly likely they used those old powers to nulify the swamp fighters advantages

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

As much as unlikely to happen it was, due to how completely retarded Obara's plan was and of Doran's cautiousness and awareness about Dornish army limits, it would have been satisfying to see Obara and a Dornish army going to Oldtown only to be crushed by the Reach army after failing miserably to breach Oldtown's defenses, while Nymeria would break her teeth at trying to siege the Marchers Castles.