NBA - The upside down

[DMC]

To me those numbers just emphasize how the Mavs have utterly failed at surrounding one of the most special players of this generation with anything worthwhile.  Pretty sad, and doesn't look like they'll be able to change that this season -- which will probably be Luka's best ever.  Shame!

[BigFatCoward]

2 hours ago, Ramsay B. said:

The ending to regulation was loco. Knicks blowing a 9 point lead with under 30 seconds to go. 

Apparently the first time that happened in 12000 games.

[Tywin et al.]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

To me those numbers just emphasize how the Mavs have utterly failed at surrounding one of the most special players of this generation with anything worthwhile.  Pretty sad, and doesn't look like they'll be able to change that this season -- which will probably be Luka's best ever.  Shame!

The two best teammates he's ever had have happily left the Mavs. Other star players might not want to play with him (and might not like him either). 

[DMC]

31 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

The two best teammates he's ever had have happily left the Mavs. Other star players might not want to play with him (and might not like him either). 

I don't really think he needs "stars" around him to make them a contender.  As for him not being likeable, not sure what you're talking about.

[Tywin et al.]

18 minutes ago, DMC said:

I don't really think he needs "stars" around him to make them a contender.  As for him not being likeable, not sure what you're talking about.

He does need another all-star caliber player unless they build a perfect team of role players. And the rumors around him are that he's not easy to deal with in private and puts a lot of people off. I think some of that comes from him being an uber talented good looking white guy from Europe who was crowned very early on in his career, but still, you don't here other top end players say they want to play with him. Maybe that's because of his heliocentric style, however, I'd think by now another star would have forced himself to Dallas, but they're not a team I hear floated when a star is making a mess and giving their team a short list where they'd like to go.

[DMC]

19 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

you don't here other top end players say they want to play with him.

I dunno.  Because of driving from Tampa to Gainesville and back I listened to two straight Ryen Russillo podcasts.  That guy thinks Trae Young is more cancerous than cigarettes and can't stop talking about it.  It's pretty annoying, and a really weird stand to take, but I get what he's saying at a basic level. 

That being said, I don't put much stock into all that hairdresser gossip.  I mean, literally every "star" on the Nets and Sixers obviously have had problems with each other in the last 20 or so months.  I won't say usually, but these things definitely CAN work themselves out - even without Phil Jackson.

Anyway, the larger point I was trying to assert is Luka doesn't necessarily need another "star."  Surround him with the right supporting cast of contributors and he can win a title.

[Maithanet]

I think the key is getting Luca someone good enough to help in a big way, but mentally ok with being second fiddle.  A big reason why the Bucks lineup works is because Holiday and MIddleton know that it's Giannis's team, but that doesn't mean their contributions aren't essential.

That said, the Wizards are ready to tank, so Bradley Beal is available.  He's having a terrible year this year (for some reason) but he was third team all NBA last year, and being the 15th or so best player in the league is basically his ceiling, but that's pretty dang good.  He's 29, so his prime matches up well enough with Luca.  I'm sure the Mavs would prefer a star with more of a two way game than Beal, but I don't know that there are any available. 

[DMC]

9 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

A big reason why the Bucks lineup works is because Holiday and MIddleton know that it's Giannis's team, but that doesn't mean their contributions aren't essential.

Right.  I also wouldn't refer to Holiday or even Middleton as "stars," albeit I suppose they're paid like they are.

[Proudfeet]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

To me those numbers just emphasize how the Mavs have utterly failed at surrounding one of the most special players of this generation with anything worthwhile.  Pretty sad, and doesn't look like they'll be able to change that this season -- which will probably be Luka's best ever.  Shame!

Looking at their roster, the redundancy between McGee/Powell and Bertans/Kleber stands out. These four are the backup center/forwards. That's five players for one and a half positions. Or if we take Wood out of the equation, it's four players for maybe four fifths of a position. That leaves Hardaway, Finney-Smith, Bullock, Dimwiddie and Luka to fill the remaining three and a half positions. Not great.

Also, only Dimwiddie and Wood have had stand out seasons. Hardaway had a good post season. None of them have had sustained success and all three suffered injuries which set them back. The rest are decent players but not much more than that. They really need to have at least two or three players step up for Dallas to get more respect.

3 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

I think the key is getting Luca someone good enough to help in a big way, but mentally ok with being second fiddle. 

I don't think Luka needs a second star unless they're also replacing one of Wood/Dimwiddie. Get someone to do the defending and Luka will get them open on offense. They just need to be good enough to finish. Get rid of Bertans for a good wing defender. 

[Wilbur]

I don't know anything about the interpersonal stuff with Luka, but I agree with the earlier sentiment that he needs a balanced roster around him of patient players.  Those players might be stars or role players, but they have to be patient.

As Proudfeet pointed out, the Mavs roster is overloaded in the big role, and thin elsewhere.

And as to patient, the rest of the roster needs to be willing to play second fiddle as Maithanet mentions.  Furthermore, they have to have court patience as well, given Luka's deliberate style of play.

What I mean by this is that he dwells on the ball for long stretches of the shot clock, so the kind of modern cutters Prada talks about have to wait and time those cuts late in the action.  This is different than the Nuggets, who can cut and expect to be hit by Jokic whenever they choose.

So the Mavs have a recruiting challenge to find other players who can both keep their ego in check and also play with some pretty advanced levels of maturity.

Finally, I think that coaching Luka plus whatever other mix of players has to be very challenging, given his ultra-heliocentric style.  A lot of the "traditional" playbook just isn't applicable with Luka on the floor.  Personally, coaching a player, even a very talented player, who requires the ball in his or her hands so much of the time, consumes a lot of mental energy.  Energy to keep operating with the confines of that style, and energy to maintain the mental focus of the rest of the team.

Again, personalities aside, given a team of "normal" players with a more "normal" style, and a team with a Luka-style player, I would choose the "normal" team arrangement as a coach every time, no matter how transformative the Luka may be.  The Luka team has to balance on a knife-edge of style, execution, and relationships all season long to be successful, where the "normal" squad has a lot more margin for variation and fault tolerance.

[Tywin et al.]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

I dunno.  Because of driving from Tampa to Gainesville and back I listened to two straight Ryen Russillo podcasts.  That guy thinks Trae Young is more cancerous than cigarettes and can't stop talking about it.  It's pretty annoying, and a really weird stand to take, but I get what he's saying at a basic level. 

That being said, I don't put much stock into all that hairdresser gossip.  I mean, literally every "star" on the Nets and Sixers obviously have had problems with each other in the last 20 or so months.  I won't say usually, but these things definitely CAN work themselves out - even without Phil Jackson.

I've heard the same thing about Trae. And I agree, typically the gossip is just that, but in this instance we can fairly conclude that at least KP did not want to play with him anymore and that mutual bitterness seemed real.

Quote

Anyway, the larger point I was trying to assert is Luka doesn't necessarily need another "star."  Surround him with the right supporting cast of contributors and he can win a title.

I guess that's just how we define a star. Another top 10 player? It would help, but it's not a must. However he does probably need another top 20ish guy and a third who is at least top 50. I suppose you could build a team of three and D guys around him who aren't even fringe all-star level guys, but you'd have to do that perfectly. 

[Maithanet]

I think Wood is good enough to be third banana for the Mavs if they get a top 20 guy like Beal or Siakam or something.  The problem is there aren't a lot of top 20 guys available for trade, and I doubt the Mavs would be willing to trade the farm for a guy much past 30 (like say, Paul George) because he's just on a different schedule than Luka. 

If you're limiting yourself to top 20 players under 30 years old who are available, it's...a very short list. 

Edited December 28, 2022 by Maithanet

[Tywin et al.]

17 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

I think Wood is good enough to be third banana for the Mavs if they get a top 20 guy like Beal or Siakam or something.  The problem is there aren't a lot of top 20 guys available for trade, and I doubt the Mavs would be willing to trade the farm for a guy much past 30 (like say, Paul George) because he's just on a different schedule than Luka. 

If you're limiting yourself to top 20 players under 30 years old who are available, it's...a very short list. 

Luka's schedule is right now. Worry about future problems when they actually occur. I don't think age matters much if you find a good fit without doing something dumb like the Wolves did.

[Proudfeet]

I don't even think they need a star. They just need to tread water and let Luka rest. They managed decently enough with Brunson last year. They have Hardaway back from injury and Wood now. I think their offense is fine. If Wood can just find some consistency and the rest of the roster can defend and hit some threes. They won't be a favourite but I don't think there is an option that will elevate them other than something absurd like replacing Wood with Siakam/Adebayo or something. Assuming the contracts even work and there's no rookie extension limit where you can only have one per team or something.

I think the most possible upgrade is a salary dump of Bertans but I think teams are going to wait till the end of the deadline before they give up on the season and make their players available. Portland managed to get Payton for 6 million in the offseason because the Warriors were capped out. Think Dallas missed a chance there. Maybe they can get Crowder, but I'm not a fan of Crowder. Think he's dirty and overrated.

[DMC]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

However he does probably need another top 20ish guy and a third who is at least top 50.

Nah I don't think he even needs that.  Just solid starters that know their roles [and shut their mouths].  Brackets for The Rock quote I couldn't resist.

[Tywin et al.]

29 minutes ago, DMC said:

Nah I don't think he even needs that.  Just solid starters that know their roles [and shut their mouths].  Brackets for The Rock quote I couldn't resist.

When's the last time a team won with one star? I'm not counting Toronto because that was due to injuries more than anything else, so the Dallas 2011 team? And even that team had really good players around Dirk. To win that way is really difficult. Luka needs teammates that can make at least an all-star game now and then to win. 

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

When's the last time a team won with one star?

The Pistons.

To challenge your assertion conceptually, I think building a team around one guy can still work.  Hell, I'd say the positionless trend that's happening even makes it more doable.

[Maithanet]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

When's the last time a team won with one star? I'm not counting Toronto because that was due to injuries more than anything else, so the Dallas 2011 team? And even that team had really good players around Dirk. To win that way is really difficult. Luka needs teammates that can make at least an all-star game now and then to win. 

I wouldn't count Toronto as having only one star.  Lowry was a four time all star at that point, definitely a top 20 player.  IMO once you have multiple all star appearances plus at least one all-NBA spot, you're a star player. 

I would agree on the Mavs, but that was just a super weird year.  The West was way down, since OKC hadn't quite come into their own, the Lakers had just fallen apart and the Spurs were the #1 seed but lost in the first round to a bruising but underwhelming Memphis team.  Then Lebron played so much better in the ECF against Chicago than he did in the Finals, it is embarrassing to his legacy to this day. 

Could such a confluence of events happen again?  Sure, but I wouldn't count on it.  I definitely consider the 2006 Mavs team that lost the Finals better than the 2011 team that won. 

[Tywin et al.]

29 minutes ago, DMC said:

The Pistons.

To challenge your assertion conceptually, I think building a team around one guy can still work.  Hell, I'd say the positionless trend that's happening even makes it more doable.

Maybe, but it's not the norm at all, and I would not try to replicate the Pistons if I was a GM. That was a rare instance of five starters fitting perfectly together and winning a title despite none of them being an elite player.

 

[Tywin et al.]

26 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Could such a confluence of events happen again?  Sure, but I wouldn't count on it.  I definitely consider the 2006 Mavs team that lost the Finals better than the 2011 team that won. 

And that's why I'm skeptical that you can build a team around one guy. Maybe you have a series of events that results in a title, but it's not sustainable. With Luka you have a young player who at worst is the third best player in the world. That should get you to the second round every year, but you need to put more around him and I believe that includes one high level player. Problem is I'm not sure who that should be. Honestly someone like AD would be perfect, but he's too injury prone. Beal does nothing for me on the Mavs. KAT might be a nice fit, but then everyone else on the team needs to be a plus defender. BAM might be a nice fit, but I don't see Miami trading him.