NBA - The upside down

[DMC]

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

Maybe, but it's not the norm at all, and I would not try to replicate the Pistons if I was a GM. That was a rare instance of five starters fitting perfectly together and winning a title despite none of them being an elite player.

i mean, it's not just the 2004 Pistons - who really didn't have any "star" in my definition of the word.  It was also the late 80s Pistons that won in 89-90.  Then you have the Nash Suns that got pretty close.  Sure they had Staudemire too, but I suspect they would have gotten as far as they did without in (albeit maybe not Marion).  In terms of getting really close, there's also Philly with Iverson, Orlando with Howard...

Point is it can happen.  And frankly I'd argue it's being attempted in Milwaukee with Giannis.  So, not really sure what we're arguing here.

[Tywin et al.]

7 minutes ago, DMC said:

i mean, it's not just the 2004 Pistons - who really didn't have any "star" in my definition of the word.  It was also the late 80s Pistons that won in 89-90.  Then you have the Nash Suns that got pretty close.  Sure they had Staudemire too, but I suspect they would have gotten as far as they did without in (albeit maybe not Marion).  In terms of getting really close, there's also Philly with Iverson, Orlando with Howard...

Point is it can happen.  And frankly I'd argue it's being attempted in Milwaukee with Giannis.  So, not really sure what we're arguing here.

It can happen, but's rare and not the way you should construct a team, especially in the modern era. And Giannis is the best player in the world and top five on both ends of the court. Luka might end up being one of the five best offensive players ever, but he's not complete in the same way Giannis and Tatum are (I'd argue those three are best right now). 

Also, Middleton is better than anyone Luka has played with. Frankly Holiday might be too. 

[DMC]

11 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

It can happen, but's rare and not the way you should construct a team, especially in the modern era. And Giannis is the best player in the world and top five on both ends of the court. Luka might end up being one of the five best offensive players ever, but he's not complete in the same way Giannis and Tatum are (I'd argue those three are best right now). 

I think Luka is in that group with Giannis.  Obviously not defensively but a team can make up for that with the right management.  Again, I guess my argument is it's eminently possible for Luka to win a championship with the right guys around him.  Is it rare in the past thirty years - or my and your's lifetime?  Sure!  But that doesn't mean it can't happen, at all.  30 is a pretty damn small sample to determine much of anything.  Let alone 20 or less which seems to be what you're going for.

If the Mavs can find a second "star" to pair with him, great, but they frankly don't have the capital to do so.  And I don't blame them for that.  What I DO blame them for is not surrounding him with players that can maximize Luka's success at winning in the playoffs.  My point is they could have done that if they were smart, and it looks like they failed in that effort.

[Tywin et al.]

2 hours ago, DMC said:

If the Mavs can find a second "star" to pair with him, great, but they frankly don't have the capital to do so.  And I don't blame them for that.  What I DO blame them for is not surrounding him with players that can maximize Luka's success at winning in the playoffs.  My point is they could have done that if they were smart, and it looks like they failed in that effort.

No argument they haven't built an ideal team around him, but what makes you say they don't have the capital? They have some guys they're overpaying, but nobody close to the max and I believe they have all their picks after this year's draft. Is it that crazy for them to sign someone like Brown in a year and a half and trade 3-4 picks for another legit all-star? What they need is two really good defenders and one more scorer (ideally filling two of those roles with one player) and then just build a roster out around that. 

[DMC]

29 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Is it that crazy for them to sign someone like Brown in a year and a half and trade 3-4 picks for another legit all-star?

I mean, yeah, that sounds pretty crazy.  Don't see why Brown would demand a trade to the Mavs - which is the only way that works.  If you mean Jaylen Brown that is, which is what I'm assuming.  They're in cap hell for this year and next year and will have a hard time getting out of it, is my point.  After that, who knows, but I was pretty much talking about taking advantage of this specific year with Luka going off.

[Tywin et al.]

36 minutes ago, DMC said:

I mean, yeah, that sounds pretty crazy.  Don't see why Brown would demand a trade to the Mavs - which is the only way that works.  If you mean Jaylen Brown that is, which is what I'm assuming.  They're in cap hell for this year and next year and will have a hard time getting out of it, is my point.  After that, who knows, but I was pretty much talking about taking advantage of this specific year with Luka going off.

Got it. Frankly I don't think they can do anything this year unless another star makes a mess and demands a trade, but some of those bad contracts are expiring this year and next and in the new NBA that has value. And I picked Brown because he's a FA after next season, has said he wants to test FA and would be a perfect fit. I just think over the course of the next few seasons Dallas needs to be aggressive and make a splash move. Luka with a real running mate and a team built to fit the two should be a top contender. That Dallas has failed to build that is an indictment on the organization as you said before. 

[Tywin et al.]

Hello 90's my old friend:

The announcer in the second clip is hilarious. Got some experience with this, Detroit? 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Tywin et al.

[DMC]

Saw the scrum while it happened.  Didn't seem like much and still doesn't.  Three people got ejected, and I imagine the punch to the face will be disciplined, but other than that it was just chin music.  Pistons easily beat the Magic and controlled the game for 48 minutes btw.  This is after the same thing happening last night against the non-AD Lakers.  Looks like Wemby is still in the cards.

[Proudfeet]

The last time a team won with one star was last year. I wouldn't count Klay post injury and Draymond/Wiggins aren't stars in the conventional sense although they could count since we include Lowry/Middleton.

[Wilbur]

11 hours ago, Wilbur said:

...as to patient, the rest of the roster needs to be willing to play second fiddle as Maithanet mentions.  Furthermore, they have to have court patience as well, given Luka's deliberate style of play.

And just to provide some support to this idea, Ben drops the following video on how you have to play with Luka to maximize his potential.

 

[Calibandar]

On 12/23/2022 at 10:34 PM, Tywin et al. said:

A tradition unlike any other, AD is out indefinitely. 

I thought the same thing. Every year, multiple times he goes out for weeks or months. Without exception.

Least durable star.

On 12/28/2022 at 6:28 PM, Maithanet said:

I think Wood is good enough to be third banana for the Mavs if they get a top 20 guy like Beal or Siakam or something.  The problem is there aren't a lot of top 20 guys available for trade, and I doubt the Mavs would be willing to trade the farm for a guy much past 30 (like say, Paul George) because he's just on a different schedule than Luka. 

If you're limiting yourself to top 20 players under 30 years old who are available, it's...a very short list. 

If they could somehow get Siakam, that would be a great get for Dallas. Unfortunately they dont have good pieces to trade.

On 12/29/2022 at 3:25 AM, Tywin et al. said:

Hello 90's my old friend:

The announcer in the second clip is hilarious. Got some experience with this, Detroit? 

Very cowardly how Killian Hayes hit him in the back of the head when he wasnt looking.

What a piece of shit.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

On a different note how's the race for the number one draft pick playing out?

Personally, I think they should just award the pick to Golden State, because they at least know how to build team and develop talent. And it would spite those tankng teams immensely.

[Tywin et al.]

2 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

On a different note how's the race for the number one draft pick playing out?

Personally, I think they should just award the pick to Golden State, because they at least know how to build team and develop talent. And it would spite those tankng teams immensely.

Tell that to Wiseman.

[DMC]

23 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Tell that to Wiseman.

Kuminga too.

Anyway, after losing back-to-back against the Pistons and the Davis-less Lakers, Orlando is firmly back in the Wemby sweepstakes along with Detroit, Charlotte, Houston, and San Antonio.  Tonight is a decent check on that against the Wizards, but with six guys suspended for the game you'd expect they'll take another L.

[DireWolfSpirit]

9 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

On a different note how's the race for the number one draft pick playing out?

Personally, I think they should just award the pick to Golden State, because they at least know how to build team and develop talent. And it would spite those tankng teams immensely.

 

 

[BigFatCoward]

Luka is special man, another 50+ game and close win. 

[Calibandar]

A truly amazing player and generational talent.

So looking at the MVP race right now, January 1.

Contenders: Jokic, Doncic, Giannis, Tatum, Durant,  Booker, Morant, Embiid.

Could we, very hesitantly, start saying Zion might be in this conversation if he keeps it up? I feel like Paul George could sneak into the race with a strong second season though it would require durability that we havent seen in a long time. Curry as well with a great run when he returns.

I think its a race between the first 5 guys I mentioned. The Nets have been on a huge tear, 11 wins in a row now I think, Durant playing some great and very consistently. But guys like Booker, Joel and Morant are super important for their teams as well.

[BigFatCoward]

1 hour ago, Calibandar said:

A truly amazing player and generational talent.

So looking at the MVP race right now, January 1.

Contenders: Jokic, Doncic, Giannis, Tatum, Durant,  Booker, Morant, Embiid.

Could we, very hesitantly, start saying Zion might be in this conversation if he keeps it up? I feel like Paul George could sneak into the race with a strong second season though it would require durability that we havent seen in a long time. Curry as well with a great run when he returns.

I think its a race between the first 5 guys I mentioned. The Nets have been on a huge tear, 11 wins in a row now I think, Durant playing some great and very consistently. But guys like Booker, Joel and Morant are super important for their teams as well.

Sucks that one of Tatum, Giannis, Embiid or Jokic won't even start the all star game. 

[Tywin et al.]

24 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Sucks that one of Tatum, Giannis, Embiid or Jokic won't even start the all star game. 

Idk, in theory you could play Tatum at the 2 and Giannis at the 3. Would be a good bit of fun. And if you wanted to be funny you could make Joker the 1.

[briantw]

I didn't watch the Cavs game tonight but checked the box score and said "holy shit" out loud.  Mitchell is ridiculous.