NBA - The upside down

[Tywin et al.]

37 minutes ago, Calibandar said:

I actually think the problem is that OKC does try, even when they clearly shouldnt. Certainly they are trying this season, racking up some wins that are not necessary if the aim is to tank. Houston Orlando Detroit San Antonio and and Charlotte are doing a better job losing and if SGA keeps playing they are going to continue to have a better record than those teams. But ultimately they are not a playoff team so what is the point?This should be the final poor OKC season,  get a great draft pick at the end of this year, get Holmgren back too and then let it fly next year. 

Idk, there was a lot of chatter from sources I respect that said OKC was going to tank it out again even if Chet was healthy and good. At some point you have to establish a culture, otherwise you're just a glorified minor league team. Bad teams tend to stay bad for a reason.

[DMC]

I think what OKC is doing is fine.  Let's keep in mind it's early.  The true "tanking" almost always comes later in the season where the team's best players are "injured" or simply don't play.  Now, OKC has kinda complicated this because SGA because that will get more focus - and royally piss him off - as long as continues to play like he's in the MVP race, but these things have a tendency to work themselves out.

I'd also point out, again, that even with SGA, if they start that true tank mode later in the season they're still gonna be a bottom ten team.  Which really is tanking with the new lottery rules - they'll have a pretty good shot at a top 4 pick regardless.

[Calibandar]

14 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Idk, there was a lot of chatter from sources I respect that said OKC was going to tank it out again even if Chet was healthy and good. At some point you have to establish a culture, otherwise you're just a glorified minor league team. Bad teams tend to stay bad for a reason.

Which is why they might be letting things fly already this season, not restricting a superb SGA, whereas I personally prefer them to end as low as possible in the rankings for maximum draft pick effect. One more season of tanking like I said, and then start being a serious team next year, which is quite likely already anyway.

I feel like there are other teams that are more in the " bad teams tends to stay bad" column, such as Detroit, Orlando, Houston, these teams have been bad for several seasons now. And then you have those teams that never seem to get out of mediocrity year-over-year, like the Knicks, Wizards, Hornets, Kings etc .

On OKC players, anyone else see a strong similarity between Giddey and Rubio? He reminds me very much of him, except 4 inches taller. In play style for sure. Rubio also had that 1 issue that put him down a bit in those first few years, not shooting the ball well, and then like 5/6 years into his career he started to shoot better.

[Proudfeet]

Um what? Harden hasn't left Houston that long and even prior to that they were still a semi regular playoff team. And you put the Kings above them in "mediocrity"? 

Anyway, what are the odds of SGA getting an all star and trigger the full max contract? I assume Doncic and Morant will probably have it locked down for the foreseeable future, Curry is still around, Booker is probably ahead of him as well.

Not sure how many reserve spots are there, but after those four players, he still has to contend with veterans with name recognition like Lillard and Chris Paul, and also upcoming players like Anthony Edwards. 

[DMC]

3 hours ago, Calibandar said:

I feel like there are other teams that are more in the " bad teams tends to stay bad" column, such as Detroit, Orlando, Houston, these teams have been bad for several seasons now.

Er, Orlando didn't start tanking until the trade deadline in February 2021.  This was a few months after OKC started full on tanking by trading Paul.  Both teams made the playoffs the prior two seasons.  As mentioned, same goes with the Rockets - who actually won in the playoffs.  Even the Pistons made the playoffs as recently the 2018-19 season, just one year before the last time the other three have.  This statement is just wildly inaccurate.

[Tywin et al.]

19 hours ago, DMC said:

I think what OKC is doing is fine.  Let's keep in mind it's early.  The true "tanking" almost always comes later in the season where the team's best players are "injured" or simply don't play. 

I think more often than not this is correct, and it's also why the play-in is a good thing (even if I hate how the Wolves had to play a team with a record that was considerably worse), but with OKC I think they went into the season trying to tank for I believe the third straight season. SGA must be a surprise for them and I suspect they're already trying to figure out how to trade him.

7 hours ago, Calibandar said:

On OKC players, anyone else see a strong similarity between Giddey and Rubio? He reminds me very much of him, except 4 inches taller. In play style for sure. Rubio also had that 1 issue that put him down a bit in those first few years, not shooting the ball well, and then like 5/6 years into his career he started to shoot better.

Eh, not exactly. Rubio at the same age was a better passer and I'm guessing (because who watches a ton of OKC?) a much better defender. But if you want to look for a silver lining, while Giddey also can't shoot at all from outside, at least he's not afraid to try. Rubio would get wide open looks and hold the ball for seconds, only for him to finally take it and chuck up an ugly shot. 

[DMC]

8 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

SGA must be a surprise for them and I suspect they're already trying to figure out how to trade him.

If he was a few years older and not signed through the 2026-27 season, I'd agree, but he's only 24.  Their core is basically him, Giddey, Dort, Holmgren and their pick this year.  SGA really isn't THAT much older than the rest of them.  And if you're hoping Holmgren will be healthy next year, that core should be ready to compete.  Trading SGA is kind of ass backwards.

[Tywin et al.]

23 minutes ago, DMC said:

If he was a few years older and not signed through the 2026-27 season, I'd agree, but he's only 24.  Their core is basically him, Giddey, Dort, Holmgren and their pick this year.  SGA really isn't THAT much older than the rest of them.  And if you're hoping Holmgren will be healthy next year, that core should be ready to compete.  Trading SGA is kind of ass backwards.

I think it would be a massive mistake to do so, unless and only unless they land Wemby, but I still feel like they might do it. 

[DMC]

5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I think it would be a massive mistake to do so, unless and only unless they land Wemby

I mean, even if they landed Wemby it'd still just mean they're lucky, not that it wasn't a mistake to risk it.  With the new rules they only have a 14% chance max to get the first pick.  Making decisions based on such a slim probability is always stupid.

[Tywin et al.]

12 minutes ago, DMC said:

I mean, even if they landed Wemby it'd still just mean they're lucky, not that it wasn't a mistake to risk it.  With the new rules they only have a 14% chance max to get the first pick.  Making decisions based on such a slim probability is always stupid.

Indeed, we're not disagreeing. I wouldn't chance it. There's just a decent amount of speculation that they might, with the potential conciliation prize being Scoot and several more first rounders.

[DMC]

7 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

There's just a decent amount of speculation that they might, with the potential conciliation prize being Scoot and several more first rounders.

Granted, Scoot is a pretty great consolation.  Frankly I really like Nick Smith and Amen Thompson too.  This draft's already got me at half chub.  Anyway, be kinda funny if Scoot ended up on OKC given the Westbrook comparisons.

[Calibandar]

7 hours ago, Proudfeet said:

Um what? Harden hasn't left Houston that long and even prior to that they were still a semi regular playoff team. And you put the Kings above them in "mediocrity"? 

 

Yes I put the Kings above them in the sense that they are consistently average. That is all.

With regards to Houston, in 2019-2020, Houston and OKC finished 4th and 5th in the league.

Since then, both teams have tanked for a full 2 seasons with Houston having the worst record 2 years in the west back to back, and Houston is looking hopeless again this year. 

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

I think more often than not this is correct, and it's also why the play-in is a good thing (even if I hate how the Wolves had to play a team with a record that was considerably worse), but with OKC I think they went into the season trying to tank for I believe the third straight season. SGA must be a surprise for them and I suspect they're already trying to figure out how to trade him.

Eh, not exactly. Rubio at the same age was a better passer and I'm guessing (because who watches a ton of OKC?) a much better defender. But if you want to look for a silver lining, while Giddey also can't shoot at all from outside, at least he's not afraid to try. Rubio would get wide open looks and hold the ball for seconds, only for him to finally take it and chuck up an ugly shot. 

There are no signs that OKC wants to trade SGA. Everything they have said has been that they want him as part of their core for the next few years, which makes total sense given his age and the youth and talent on their team. He's only 24.

If they did trade SGA, that would be seen as a bad sign. Was just listening to the Bill Simmons podcast today where they discussed SGA's growth this season and they also think there is no way OKC would trade him now. The Knicks were suggested as being very interested still but they dont have any attractive pieces for a deal even if OKC did consider it.

Giddey and Rubio are very similar. Giddey's passing is one of his very best assets actually. If he can learn to shoot at a higher percentage like Rubio eventually did, he will be like a taller version of him. Huge potential in this guy.

[Tywin et al.]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

Granted, Scoot is a pretty great consolation.  Frankly I really like Nick Smith and Amen Thompson too.  This draft's already got me at half chub.  Anyway, be kinda funny if Scoot ended up on OKC given the Westbrook comparisons.

Can't say I've looked much at anyone besides the top two. Not having to look at prospects is a strange new reality, both because my team might actually be good and also because I don't even know what our pick situation will be like for a while.

But it's the Timberwolves, so either Ant or KAT will get traded for less than what Rudy went for in a year and the team will collapse again.

Sigh that my sports joy is still in Kirk's hands...

1 hour ago, Calibandar said:

There are no signs that OKC wants to trade SGA. Everything they have said has been that they want him as part of their core for the next few years, which makes total sense given his age and the youth and talent on their team. He's only 24.

If they did trade SGA, that would be seen as a bad sign. Was just listening to the Bill Simmons podcast today where they discussed SGA's growth this season and they also think there is no way OKC would trade him now. The Knicks were suggested as being very interested still but they dont have any attractive pieces for a deal even if OKC did consider it.

I'm not saying they're going to trade him, just that there's been speculation that they might. I think in their dream scenario they keep him, he's still awesome and somehow they get that 14% shot at Wemby. If they do get him I hope Chet comes back and is what some think he can be because it would be utterly hilarious to watch them get 20 blocks a night.

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Giddey and Rubio are very similar. Giddey's passing is one of his very best assets actually. If he can learn to shoot at a higher percentage like Rubio eventually did, he will be like a taller version of him. Huge potential in this guy.

Rubio was a LeBron type of passer early on. Giddey is a nice player, but he's not that. His overall ceiling is a lot higher though imo. Not sure he has a great comp tbh because he's rather unique and still pretty raw. 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Tywin et al.

[DMC]

So Orlando managed to edge out Edwards, KAT, and Gobert 49 to 48 in the first half.  Unfortunately the rest of the Wolves also scored 26 points.

[Tywin et al.]

10 minutes ago, DMC said:

So Orlando managed to edge out Edwards, KAT, and Gobert 49 to 48 in the first half.  Unfortunately the rest of the Wolves also scored 26 points.

How many starters are even playing? Banchero, Wagner, Cole and Carter are out and Suggs is limping to the bench.

[DMC]

33 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

How many starters are even playing? Banchero, Wagner, Cole and Carter are out and Suggs is limping to the bench.

Wagner is playing, Suggs came back cuz he's gutsy as hell.  Arguably too gutsy - and reckless.  Hard to pin down who qualifies as "starters" considering the perpetually injured.

[Tywin et al.]

23 minutes ago, DMC said:

Wagner is playing, Suggs came back cuz he's gutsy as hell.  Arguably too gutsy - and reckless.  Hard to pin down who qualifies as "starters" considering the perpetually injured.

Tbf you do have two Wagners. Anyways that game doesn't mean much considering it was not an even match up. As you said the team is injured.

Do you think they call that hit on Suggs a F2 in the playoffs?

 

 

Unrelated, I really liked this article by Ramona Shelburne on Klay:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/35027606/inside-klay-thompson-epic-comeback

After Kawhi won the championship in Toronto a ton of funny stories came out about him that weren't true, but you kind of wanted to believe them. It's not in the article yet I really hope it's true that he starts his day in some order of jumping in the ocean, smoking a ton of weed, making breakfast while watching the news and reading newspapers for an hour before training. Something about that just feels perfectly him.

 

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Tywin et al.

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Tbf you do have two Wagners. Anyways that game doesn't mean much considering it was not an even match up. As you said the team is injured.

Do you think they call that hit on Suggs a F2 in the playoffs?

What was funny is that's the first game Carter missed, which allowed Bol and Bamba to match up to the Gobert/KAT twin towers.  And, yeah, Moe Wagner hasn't played yet this season, but you were mentioning starters and he's not on that radar.  Hell, with Bol's emergence he's gonna struggle to get minutes when he comes back.

I dunno, I thought the call was borderline in terms of a F2.  I woulda just called it a regular flagrant, but hard to complain either way.

[Tywin et al.]

38 minutes ago, DMC said:

What was funny is that's the first game Carter missed, which allowed Bol and Bamba to match up to the Gobert/KAT twin towers.  And, yeah, Moe Wagner hasn't played yet this season, but you were mentioning starters and he's not on that radar.  Hell, with Bol's emergence he's gonna struggle to get minutes when he comes back.

Bol did flash a lot. Bamba though, I wrote here when he was drafted that I was super high on him. Haven't followed his career much in detail, but it's very surprising to me that his career averages are what they are.

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I dunno, I thought the call was borderline in terms of a F2.  I woulda just called it a regular flagrant, but hard to complain either way.

I was good with the F2 given it's the regular season and Suggs is wearing a mask and took a shot to the head and face area, even if I don't think Prince meant anything by it. That's why I asked about in the playoffs because it's a tough call. Can't recall who said it first, but I do like the idea of being able to call a F2 without it being an automatic ejection (or more so giving the player a F1 and T1).

[Tywin et al.]

SGA had another big night. 42/7/6. 

Also, who the hell is Lindy Waters III? He was +32 while Giddey was -23. The former's individual numbers are horrific and yet by that metric he was amazing.