What was Joffrey's relationship with King Robert?

[Aebram]

I'm looking into the question of who hired the catspaw that tried to kill Bran Stark.  It's somewhat difficult to research this, because the relevant text is scattered through the books, in several characters' POV chapters.  The most popular theory seems to be that Joffrey did it; but I see several problems with that. 

In ASOS 60, Tyrion suspects Joffrey, but can't think of a motive ("The why of it still eluded him").  In ASOS 72, Jaime suspects that Joffrey did it to earn some praise from King Robert, who had said that it was better for Bran to die than to live as a cripple.  But does this really make sense?  Was Joffrey so eager for Robert's approval that he would arrange a murder to win some?  Hence my question.  

What do we know of Joffrey's relationship with his supposed father?  Were they close?  Did Joffrey ever show any desire for approval or affection from Robert?  I haven't done a reread in some time, but I don't recall anything like that.  Have I forgotten something?

[Springwatch]

8 hours ago, Aebram said:

What do we know of Joffrey's relationship with his supposed father?  Were they close?  Did Joffrey ever show any desire for approval or affection from Robert?  I haven't done a reread in some time, but I don't recall anything like that.  Have I forgotten something?

Admired him, yes. This is comparing him to Tywin: "[...] My father won all the battles. He killed Prince Rhaegar and took the crown, while your father was hiding under Casterly Rock." The boy gave his grandfather a defiant look. "A strong king acts boldly, he doesn't just talk."

[John Suburbs]

10 hours ago, Aebram said:

I'm looking into the question of who hired the catspaw that tried to kill Bran Stark.  It's somewhat difficult to research this, because the relevant text is scattered through the books, in several characters' POV chapters.  The most popular theory seems to be that Joffrey did it; but I see several problems with that. 

In ASOS 60, Tyrion suspects Joffrey, but can't think of a motive ("The why of it still eluded him").  In ASOS 72, Jaime suspects that Joffrey did it to earn some praise from King Robert, who had said that it was better for Bran to die than to live as a cripple.  But does this really make sense?  Was Joffrey so eager for Robert's approval that he would arrange a murder to win some?  Hence my question.  

What do we know of Joffrey's relationship with his supposed father?  Were they close?  Did Joffrey ever show any desire for approval or affection from Robert?  I haven't done a reread in some time, but I don't recall anything like that.  Have I forgotten something?

Neither of the explanations holds water. How was Robert to know Joffrey sent the CP? And Robert smacked Joffrey pretty good over the killing of a cat. Why would Joffrey think he would be happy by killing the comatose son of his best friend in the world, whom Robert has been praying for day and night right along with Ned and Cat?

The simple cruelty theory doesn't wash either. Joff was long gone from Winterfell by the time the CP struck. Why would he care whether Bran lived or died at that point? And Joff is not just cruel to people at random. There is always a reason -- not a good one, but a reason nonetheless.

Here is how I think the whole thing went down:

People say Littlefinger could not be involved because he had no idea of Bran's fall, but he doesn't have to know anything in order to be the instigator of all this. Before the royal party left Winterfell, I suspect Petyr pulled Joffrey aside and told him that Ned becoming Hand would be bad -- bad for Robert, bad for Cersei, bad for House Lannister, bad for the whole realm, but most of all, bad for Joffrey and his eventual ascension to the throne, a prediction that would seem prescient just a short while later.

Alas, Petyr would say, the only thing that could prevent this is if some great tragedy were to befall House Stark, something like the sudden death of one of the children. And oh my, that sure is an unusual knife in your father's collection . . .

So Joffrey arrives at Winterfell with murder on his mind. And might we look at his challenge to Robb to spar with live steel in a new light? Is Joffrey above putting a little nightsoil on his own blade?

But then Bran falls and it would seem to Joffrey that the problem has resolved itself. When Ned comes south anyway, though, Joffrey sends the CP to change his mind. And when they reach the Trident with still no word of Bran's death, Joffrey set his sights on his next target: Sansa. Good thing they ran into Arya and Micah first.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

36 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Neither of the explanations holds water. How was Robert to know Joffrey sent the CP? And Robert smacked Joffrey pretty good over the killing of a cat. Why would Joffrey think he would be happy by killing the comatose son of his best friend in the world, whom Robert has been praying for day and night right along with Ned and Cat?

The simple cruelty theory doesn't wash either. Joff was long gone from Winterfell by the time the CP struck. Why would he care whether Bran lived or died at that point? And Joff is not just cruel to people at random. There is always a reason -- not a good one, but a reason nonetheless.

Here is how I think the whole thing went down:

People say Littlefinger could not be involved because he had no idea of Bran's fall, but he doesn't have to know anything in order to be the instigator of all this. Before the royal party left Winterfell, I suspect Petyr pulled Joffrey aside and told him that Ned becoming Hand would be bad -- bad for Robert, bad for Cersei, bad for House Lannister, bad for the whole realm, but most of all, bad for Joffrey and his eventual ascension to the throne, a prediction that would seem prescient just a short while later.

Alas, Petyr would say, the only thing that could prevent this is if some great tragedy were to befall House Stark, something like the sudden death of one of the children. And oh my, that sure is an unusual knife in your father's collection . . .

So Joffrey arrives at Winterfell with murder on his mind. And might we look at his challenge to Robb to spar with live steel in a new light? Is Joffrey above putting a little nightsoil on his own blade?

But then Bran falls and it would seem to Joffrey that the problem has resolved itself. When Ned comes south anyway, though, Joffrey sends the CP to change his mind. And when they reach the Trident with still no word of Bran's death, Joffrey set his sights on his next target: Sansa. Good thing they ran into Arya and Micah first.

If I recall correctly didn’t Robb curb stomp Joff with practice swords? Live steel might’ve resulted in Joff getting hurt. Making what happened on the Kingsroad paltry by comparison 

[Arthur Peres]

4 hours ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

If I recall correctly didn’t Robb curb stomp Joff with practice swords? Live steel might’ve resulted in Joff getting hurt. Making what happened on the Kingsroad paltry by comparison 

Robb was getting the best of Joffrey with wooden swords, but when Joffrey asked for real steel Rodrik denied him and offered tourney swords... Joffrey refused, mocked Robb, Clegane joined in the mockery and made the Lannisters men laugh of Robb, it pissed off the Young Wolf enough that Theon had to hold him and stop him from attacking Joffrey.

 

 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

Robb was getting the best of Joffrey with wooden swords, but when Joffrey asked for real steel Rodrik denied him and offered tourney swords... Joffrey refused, mocked Robb, Clegane joined in the mockery and made the Lannisters men laugh of Robb, it pissed off the Young Wolf enough that Theon had to hold him and stop him from attacking Joffrey.

 

 

Though knowing Joffrey it was better for him than Rodrik refused real steel. We know his reaction to the slighest wound.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

5 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Though knowing Joffrey it was better for him than Rodrik refused real steel. We know his reaction to the slighest wound.

Yeah, he would’ve been wounded and Cersei probably would’ve asked that Robb’s hand be taken as a result. Though I doubt Robert would’ve allowed that. Especially with all the witnesses to it.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

To come back to the subject Joffrey did seem to have some genuine love for Robert and idolized him. Though Robert on the other hand was distant and wasn't very affectionate toward this boy that horrified him by cutting a pregnant cat and showing her unborn kittens to Robert, who understandably was horrified and struck Joffrey in response. 

Though this or any further attempt to discipline Joffrey ended with Cersei, who completely dismissed Joffrey's monstruous action and all others, threatening to murder him if he laid his hand on Joffrey again. 

Robert lamented to Ned, wondering how he could have given birth to a son like Joffrey, and admitted that if it wasn't for the knowledge of Joffrey being his successor he would have abdicated his crown and sailed to Essos to become a sellsword and as such become a warrior again.

[Angel Eyes]

20 minutes ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

Yeah, he would’ve been wounded and Cersei probably would’ve asked that Robb’s hand be taken as a result. Though I doubt Robert would’ve allowed that. Especially with all the witnesses to it.

That scene is a weird one, which somewhat flies in the face of what we know about Joffrey as a character, particularly regarding his cowardice.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

6 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

That scene is a weird one, which somewhat flies in the face of what we know about Joffrey as a character, particularly regarding his cowardice.

Joffrey is so arrogant and delusionnal that he actually views himself as a great warrior, despite him being unable of handling even a cut. 

He sincerely believed that he could beat Robb with a true blade, just like he believed that he could lead his men in battle and kill Stannis and Robb during the war.

Of course it's all because he can't imagine or handle someone actually fighting back. Once that happens...

[Arthur Peres]

1 hour ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

To come back to the subject Joffrey did seem to have some genuine love for Robert and idolized him. Though Robert on the other hand was distant and wasn't very affectionate toward this boy that horrified him by cutting a pregnant cat and showing her unborn kittens to Robert, who understandably was horrified and struck Joffrey in response. 

 

I doubt it that Joffrey cared about Robert.

They were distant from his birth with Robert being incapable of holding him without Joffrey crying. By the time Robert dies, Joffrey is never seem in grief, and when Tyrion comes to KL we have this weird moment:

Quote

“I am sorry for your loss as well, Joffrey,” the dwarf said.

“What loss?”

“Your royal father? A large fierce man with a black beard; you’ll recall him if you try. He was king before you.”

“Oh, him. Yes, it was very sad, a boar killed him.”

 

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

If I recall correctly didn’t Robb curb stomp Joff with practice swords? Live steel might’ve resulted in Joff getting hurt. Making what happened on the Kingsroad paltry by comparison 

Joff got "more swats than (he) gave", so he is capable of getting an edge on Robb. And he knows Robb will not kill his crown prince, or hurt him too badly, which wouldn't cause a dust-up because it was Joff's challenge to begin with and it would only have happened under Rodrick's approval, or their fathers'. All Joff needs to do is nick Robb somewhere.

[The Sleeper]

They didn't appear to have more than a perfunctory relationship. That said Robert's past image would and overall reputation as a mighty and charismatic warrior would appeal to Joffrey and furthermore it is the only rolemodel of a king he had. There is also the factor of reflected glory. The more he builds up Robert, the greater he looks by association. 

As for Bran, his fall basically ruined his vacation. Joffrey was forced to tone down his attitude and removed him as the center of attention. In short, he was annoyed. Given his personality, Robert's words gave him the impetus and rationalisation to act on those feelings. He didn't need much reason or excuse to hurt or kill people. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

Robert was Distant. Uninvolved.  For his part, Joff wanted his father’s approval.