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Surprisingly dumb moves made by clever or smart characters


Arthur Peres
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Tywin's complete lack of suspicion toward Varys and Littlefinger. For someone supposed to be a political genius Tywin really gave much room to maneuver to these two without ever threatening them or suspecting that they were working against him and his house.

It's also glaring that he couldn't even suspect that something wasn't right with the treasury, and that Littlefinger may have a hand in it. 

Edited by Terrorthatflapsinthenight9
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8 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

What about Stannis actions after the death of Jon Arryn?

Instead of taking action, or informing the king, or go to Winterfell to deal with the Lannisters there away from their zone of power, he goes home to sulk and complain...

Much as I like Stannis, I think that there are a couple of 'dumb' decisions that he made during the series:

  • Keeping Ned out of the loop when he should have known that after Jon Arryn died, Ned was the best person to tell Robert the hard truth about his kids
  • Wasting a whole shadowbaby (and who knows what else) on killing Courtnay Penrose. There were a bunch of other ways to deal with him without draining more of Stannis' life force. I honestly think that only happened so Davos could see the shadowbaby be born
  • Giving command of the fleet to Imry Florent. Not necessarily something he could have foreseen, but it's not like Imry was qualified. Why not give the task to Monford Velaryon? He was loyal from the start, and Velaryons know their way around the water.

 

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16 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Much as I like Stannis, I think that there are a couple of 'dumb' decisions that he made during the series:

  • Keeping Ned out of the loop when he should have known that after Jon Arryn died, Ned was the best person to tell Robert the hard truth about his kids
  • Wasting a whole shadowbaby (and who knows what else) on killing Courtnay Penrose. There were a bunch of other ways to deal with him without draining more of Stannis' life force. I honestly think that only happened so Davos could see the shadowbaby be born
  • Giving command of the fleet to Imry Florent. Not necessarily something he could have foreseen, but it's not like Imry was qualified. Why not give the task to Monford Velaryon? He was loyal from the start, and Velaryons know their way around the water.

 

Or Davos, the guy he literally makes his Hand in the next book.

Can we also add not taking Melisandre with him, when taking Kings Landing and not destroying Tyrion's chain towers before going after the city.

Edited by sifth
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6 hours ago, James Steller said:

Much as I like Stannis, I think that there are a couple of 'dumb' decisions that he made during the series:

I think he should have told everyone as soon as Robert died. It seems like he waited around for a few months before sending the letters, at which point Robb and Renly were already off doing their own incompatible thing. Now if I remember correctly he did send Davos to get some support from the stormlords, but what he should have done was told everyone immediately. He could have got the North on his side that way.

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dumb move by someone who is perceived as smart?

Rhaegar Targaryen and whatever plan he had ! do I need to explain why?!

Rhaegar's actions during the last year of his life were so idiotic and out of character that I can only accept that he was either possessed by Targaryen madness and prophetic dreams or he was hugely misunderstood("being in love" instead of "rape" is not enough . it doesn't justify his dumbness) or he was framed .

 

boy , Tywin Lannister is not as smart as he thinks he is , is he?!lol . but seriously it's obviously his arrogance that blinds him . he thinks himself so much better than anyone else that he doesn't think twice about offending the ruling princess of Dorne , refusing to accept his own son and heir , and trusting the likes of LF and Varys who he probably sees as too beneath him to pose any threat ! 

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Whole (F?)Aegon plot.

Golden Company and Blackfyres had always failed when they had tried to take over Westeros. Secondly many people living other kingdoms hate Dornish and there been many people whose ancestors fought against GC so their support might not be very good idea for anyone wanting to rule all 7 kingdoms. Besides Dorne and Stormlands have weak economies and military. So unless Team Aegon somehow gains support of Reach and Vale they will fail.

In fact I assume that whole plot is retelling story of Pyrrhos. Or invader with great name with powerful army comes and gains some victories but in the long run fails bc he fails to gain enough support from local VIPs.

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Tyrion using his position as Hand to run a feud against Cersei, a member of the family firm. Notably - kidnapping his own nephew, Tommen (with no benefit, but a loss of secrecy); and destroying two major Lannister loyalists: Council member and grand maester Pycelle, and ace bodyguard the Hound. Stripping Joffrey of his guards in the same period as threatening him turned out a bad move as well.

ETA

Nearly forgot. Found a super clever way of exposing the traitors in the Small Council, that turned up Pycelle, but not Varys and Littlefinger.

Edited by Springwatch
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1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Tyrion using his position as Hand to run a feud against Cersei, a member of the family firm. Notably - kidnapping his own nephew, Tommen (with no benefit, but a loss of secrecy); and destroying two major Lannister loyalists: Council member and grand maester Pycelle, and ace bodyguard the Hound. Stripping Joffrey of his guards in the same period as threatening him turned out a bad move as well.

ETA

Nearly forgot. Found a super clever way of exposing the traitors in the Small Council, that turned up Pycelle, but not Varys and Littlefinger.

I kinda disagree on the first part. Cersei was going to feud with Tyrion anyway, whenever it was over this reason or another one. Tyrion can't just ignore his sister who's constantly plotting and trying to threaten and undermine him.

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1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Tyrion using his position as Hand to run a feud against Cersei, a member of the family firm. Notably - kidnapping his own nephew, Tommen (with no benefit, but a loss of secrecy); and destroying two major Lannister loyalists: Council member and grand maester Pycelle, and ace bodyguard the Hound. Stripping Joffrey of his guards in the same period as threatening him turned out a bad move as well.

that depends on how you see team Tyrion . it seems neither Cersei nor Tyrion work for Lannister bloc , rather they work for their personal gain .forget about Lannister supporters ,Tyrion made an enemy of his own nephew , Joffrey ! I mean , Joff is a little piece of shit but it was a dumb move for Tyrion to ignore the fact that eventually Joff will be the absolute power! 

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2 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

I kinda disagree on the first part. Cersei was going to feud with Tyrion anyway, whenever it was over this reason or another one. Tyrion can't just ignore his sister who's constantly plotting and trying to threaten and undermine him.

Tyrion obviously thinks so, but at the moment I can't think of anything at all. She's very open to Tyrion at this period - that is openly discussing things, openly arguing with him, openly furious, occasionally openly slapping him.

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

that depends on how you see team Tyrion . it seems neither Cersei nor Tyrion work for Lannister bloc , rather they work for their personal gain .

They are part of the bloc though, whether they want to be or not, and when Tywin arrives, he's so unimpressed by the pair of them that both are almost completely disempowered.

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

forget about Lannister supporters ,Tyrion made an enemy of his own nephew , Joffrey ! I mean , Joff is a little piece of shit but it was a dumb move for Tyrion to ignore the fact that eventually Joff will be the absolute power! 

Yeah, it's staggering.

Here's a thing, though - how Tyrion is written. Tyrion hardly ever admits to himself he's been dumb. If he does, it's of the moment - e.g. he regrets visiting a whore in Essos and getting caught by Jorah, but regret is over in half a sentence. The rest of the time, he thinks he's brilliant - literally his thoughts are on the page for us to take note of. And he's surrounded by other characters who praise his intelligence. No other character ever says, 'Tyrion, you were so dumb when you did that.'

Cersei is the opposite. Never thinks of her own intelligence, and is surrounded by characters saying her decisions are dumb. Not all of them are actually. The honourable Barristan is always going to be a weak link working for a family of supervillains. Much better replace him by Jaime. And she's right that having lots of Tyrells in high office is going to end in a power grab, as Kevan finds.

Edited by Springwatch
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11 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Tyrion obviously thinks so, but at the moment I can't think of anything at all. She's very open to Tyrion at this period - that is openly discussing things, openly arguing with him, openly furious, occasionally openly slapping him.

They are part of the bloc though, whether they want to be or not, and when Tywin arrives, he's so unimpressed by the pair of them that both are almost completely disempowered.

Yeah, it's staggering.

Here's a thing, though - how Tyrion is written. Tyrion hardly ever admits to himself he's been dumb. If he does, it's of the moment - e.g. he regrets visiting a whore in Essos and getting caught by Jorah, but regret is over in half a sentence. The rest of the time, he thinks he's brilliant - literally his thoughts are on the page for us to take note of. And he's surrounded by other characters who praise his intelligence. No other character ever says, 'Tyrion, you were so dumb when you did that.'

Cersei is the opposite. Never thinks of her own intelligence, and is surrounded by characters saying her decisions are dumb. Not all of them are actually. The honourable Barristan is always going to be a weak link working for a family of supervillains. Much better replace him by Jaime. And she's right that having lots of Tyrells in high office is going to end in a power grab, as Kevan finds.

Cersei thinks she is super intelligent too ! but more people believe Tyrion is smart , maybe because no one expects him to be smart! then again , Tyrion is still smarter than Cersei . he's the kinda guy who can talk himself out of slavery after all and he is not as blind as Cersei when it comes to people's motivations . nonetheless , they are both Tywin's children and just like him they have a certain arrogance that doesn't let them be rational all the time . Jaimie's pretty much the same until he loses his hand and gets into his identity crisis and starts thinking better .

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