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Surprisingly dumb moves made by clever or smart characters


Arthur Peres
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15 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

Cersei thinks she is super intelligent too !

Fair point! she thinks she's the great politician, which is more or less the same. She does feel worthless inside though, that's the thought we get from her, while from Tyrion it's all 'my mind is my weapon' etc. The author gives them very different treatment.

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House Stark allowing House Bolton to exist or at the very least not keeping a closer eye on them. Cat thinking Roose Bolton, a person from a house with a reputation for betraying Starks, would make a fine commander for half of Robb's army. Say what you will about the Great Jon, the guy was loyal as they come.

Edited by sifth
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31 minutes ago, sifth said:

House Stark allowing House Bolton to exist or at the very least not keeping a closer eye on them. Cat thinking Roose Bolton, a person from a house with a reputation for betraying Starks, would make a fine commander for half of Robb's army. Say what you will about the Great Jon, the guy was loyal as they come.

Not to mention the fact that Roose did the exact thing that Cat and Robb were worried Greatjon would do.

If anything, it should have been someone more reasonable and cautious, like Halys Hornwood or Medger Cerwyn.

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1 hour ago, Canon Claude said:

If anything, it should have been someone more reasonable and cautious, like Halys Hornwood or Medger Cerwyn.

I assume that major problem with both of them would have been that in Westeros pedigree matters. Or ancient and (ex)royal houses like Boltons and Umbers are more equal than houses that never were royal and almost certainly are not as old than those houses. So Robb could not chose commander who did not have necessary pedigree but he had to choose either Great Jon or Roose as commander of that task force. 

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1 hour ago, Canon Claude said:

Not to mention the fact that Roose did the exact thing that Cat and Robb were worried Greatjon would do.

 

It's worst than that.

Roose was able to surprise Tywin, but instead of taking advantage of the disaray, he trew away the element of surprise and waited for them to form up.

If anything, it shows that the Greatjon deserves more credit than what is given to him. If he was in command he maybe would be able to beat Tywin.

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1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

If anything, it shows that the Greatjon deserves more credit than what is given to him. If he was in command he maybe would be able to beat Tywin.

No, he would have done the same stupid rush into battle, except he wouldn’t be doing it to deliberately weaken every northern house but his own. 
 

Robb was smart to keep Greatjon by his side during the war. But he should have done the same with Roose Bolton. It’s hard to scheme and conspire when you have no independent command. In fact, I’d say giving Roose any kind of command separate from him was the single dumbest move Robb ever made.

Edited by Canon Claude
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1 hour ago, Loose Bolt said:

I assume that major problem with both of them would have been that in Westeros pedigree matters. Or ancient and (ex)royal houses like Boltons and Umbers are more equal than houses that never were royal and almost certainly are not as old than those houses. So Robb could not chose commander who did not have necessary pedigree but he had to choose either Great Jon or Roose as commander of that task force. 

Why not simply have his Uncle the Black Fish command half his army? The guy comes from one of the 7 major houses and has a reputation being a badass, smart and honorable guy.

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3 minutes ago, sifth said:

Why not simply have his Uncle the Black Fish command half his army? The guy comes from one of the 7 major houses and has a reputation being a badass, smart and honorable guy.

He needed the Blackfish by his side. I'd wager that Brynden was at least partially responsible for most of Robb's victories. 

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5 minutes ago, James Steller said:

He needed the Blackfish by his side. I'd wager that Brynden was at least partially responsible for most of Robb's victories. 

I don't know about that. The Blackfish was certainly Robb's best advisor, but that's all the more reason to give him his own command. The guy hates the Lannisters and would never betray him. Also he's family and they're fighting on his turf, so he knows the lay of the land.

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Just now, sifth said:

I don't know about that. The Blackfish was certainly Robb's best advisor, but that's all the more reason to give him his own command. The guy hates the Lannisters and would never betray him. Also he's family and they're fighting on his turf, so he knows the lay of the land.

All the more reason why I think he's partly responsible for the victories at Whispering Wood and the Camps, and he probably played a crucial role in the Westerlands. Robb, talented as he was, was just 15. It makes far more sense that Brynden was giving him advice and carrying out a bunch of roles which helped Robb score his victories.

Not that I'm arguing for Roose to stay in command, he definitely couldn't be trusted. I'd have gone with Wyman Manderly, personally. He's the heir to the most powerful house in the North (after House Stark, anyway), and he's utterly loyal to Robb. He also would presumably play things cautious if that was Robb's orders to him.

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58 minutes ago, James Steller said:

All the more reason why I think he's partly responsible for the victories at Whispering Wood and the Camps, and he probably played a crucial role in the Westerlands. Robb, talented as he was, was just 15. It makes far more sense that Brynden was giving him advice and carrying out a bunch of roles which helped Robb score his victories.

Not that I'm arguing for Roose to stay in command, he definitely couldn't be trusted. I'd have gone with Wyman Manderly, personally. He's the heir to the most powerful house in the North (after House Stark, anyway), and he's utterly loyal to Robb. He also would presumably play things cautious if that was Robb's orders to him.

I think you mean Wylis; Wyman, Lord of White Harbor didn't ride to war.

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Everything Robb does after beating Jaime. Sending away Theon, not sending Catelyn back to North, not arranging a marriage to Edmure, his uncle and subject, who is long overdue a marriage , marrying Jeyne, not giving Edmure the specifics about the plan on luring Tywin, not beating Tywin's ass when he had him boxed in Harrenhal, not reaching out to Tyrells to marry Margaery after Renly died, you name it. Actually I take back what I say, making some clever battle moves clearly not make him smart, Robb is rather stupid, not Ironborn level stupid but still is, I should better have written in clever moves made by dumb characters thread.

Edited by Corvo the Crow
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1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Everything Robb does after beating Jaime. Sending away Theon, not sending Catelyn back to North, not arranging a marriage to Edmure, his uncle and subject, who is long overdue a marriage , marrying Jeyne, not giving Edmure the specifics about the plan on luring Tywin, not beating Tywin's ass when he had him boxed in Harrenhal, not reaching out to Tyrells to marry Margaery after Renly died, you name it. Actually I take back what I say, making some clever battle moves clearly not make him smart, Robb is rather stupid, not Ironborn level stupid but still is, I should better have written in clever moves made by dumb characters thread.

You're being a little harsh on the boy.

There is a diference between a dumb decision and a gamble that does not pay off. Sending Theon is a gamble that did not pay off. Had Balon invaded the Westerlands it would be considered a smart move.

By what the books tell us, Tywin wanted Robb to go after him in Harenhall. Trying to lure Tywin towards West was smarter.

Robb had no way to send a mensage to the Tyrells in time. Catelyn was in the wrong place at the wrong time, she could easily become the main suspect of killing Renly.

I think the really dumb decision that Robb made are:

1- Giving the command of the second army to Roose,

2- Not declaring for Renly when he had the chance

3- Letting the Riverlords return to their lands between AGoT and ACoK.

4- The marriage with Jeyne.

Edited by Arthur Peres
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9 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

You're being a little harsh on the boy.

There is a diference between a dumb decision and a gamble that does not pay off. Sending Theon is a gamble that did not pay off. Had Balon invaded the Westerlands it would be considered a smart move.

 

Robb had a streak of it though. 

 

10 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

1- Giving the command of the second army to Roose,

2- Not declaring for Renly when he had the chance

3- Letting the Riverlords return to their lands between AGoT and ACoK.

4- The marriage with Jeyne.

I forgot all about number 3! Yes it adds to his dumb streak. 1 and 2 though, not so much. 1 especially, it was one of the better choices he made, not replacing Roose after Greenfork was dumb, but appointing him in the first place wasn't. Roose is calm and calculated and he almost pulled it off with his surprise attack, he fell on the Westerlanders with no warning and got the high ground, though his shield walls broke with the Mountain's giant horse falling on them.

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5 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Robb had a streak of it though. 

Worst luck in the series by far. No one comes even close.

 

6 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I forgot all about number 3! Yes it adds to his dumb streak. 1 and 2 though, not so much. 1 especially, it was one of the better choices he made, not replacing Roose after Greenfork was dumb, but appointing him in the first place wasn't. Roose is calm and calculated and he almost pulled it off with his surprise attack, he fell on the Westerlanders with no warning and got the high ground, though his shield walls broke with the Mountain's giant horse falling on them.

I think Roose could be considered a gamble that backfired hard.

The whole KiTN was a dumb move. The pragmatica choice would be to declare for Renly. They would have 4 of the kingdoms against the Lannisters, the war would be as good as over, as long as he can pin Tywin in Harenhall and Renly rushes to KL. He would not even need to send Theon to Balon in such scenario.

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58 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Worst luck in the series by far. No one comes even close.

 

I think Roose could be considered a gamble that backfired hard.

The whole KiTN was a dumb move. The pragmatica choice would be to declare for Renly. They would have 4 of the kingdoms against the Lannisters, the war would be as good as over, as long as he can pin Tywin in Harenhall and Renly rushes to KL. He would not even need to send Theon to Balon in such scenario.

Yea, but what happens when Stannis shadow monster throws a wrench in this plan?

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2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Most of it is due to his own decisions though, not luck. Renly had bad luck, Stannis too after Tyrells went with Lannisters. Robb chose wrong over and over again.

I don't think it's the case.

When you break down Robb's campaign it goes like:

He destroyed 2 out of 3 Lannisters armies, he send messages to everyone asking for alliances and they all backfired. Lysa ignored him, Balon betrayed him, Renly died at the worst moment and Catelyn almost became the suspect of the murder, Stannis responded with a threat. Robb then loses the war in a battle he does not even take part and has no way of interfering.

Lysa was his blood, and under normal circustances should be expected to support her own house, instead she refuses to even let him use the port of Gultown...

Balon had common cause with him, but went on to attack the only person willing to reconize and support him. Probably the dumbest decision in the books.

Rodrik leave Winterfell unguarded to relief the siege of a ruin, and let the main castle in the north fall for 20 men in a night, losing both of Robb's heirs in the process...

Edmure messed up Robb's plans seeking glory.

Robb then makes his stupid decision of marrying Jeyne.

Cat puts the last nail on his coffin when she frees Jaime.

Surrender would be the correct choice after that many set backs, but in his position would you trust the mercy of Tywin and Joffrey ? I wouldn't.

Even if he had not married Jeyne, I don't think the Freys would support him. By George own words the Freys would seek to disassociate themself from Robb. He lost the war at Blackwater and there is nothing he could do to change that result.

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6 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

The whole KiTN was a dumb move. The pragmatica choice would be to declare for Renly.

Especially if Robb wants vengeance for his father, this is the best move as he has the highest chance of beating the Lannisters. Also, when winter comes he can still receive food aid from the South.

4 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Edmure messed up Robb's plans seeking glory.

I agree with everything except this. Robb should have been more clear with what he wanted Edmure to do. That is his responsibility as commander.

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