No, the First Men are not a race

[Tyrosh Lannister]

The First Men are the first humans in Westeros. They are not a race of people like the Andals or Rhoynar.

They consist of many races - the people that crossed the arm of Dorne, the Daynes with their purple eyes already living in Westeros (also Hightowers potentially), and the Ironborn for example.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

Racist

[direpupy]

You mixed up the Hightowers and the dayne's, its the Hightowers for whom there is evidence they where there before the First Men.

[Oneiros Drakontos]

In my opinion the Hightowers and the Daynes came from the Great Empire of Dawn.

[Tyrosh Lannister]

24 minutes ago, Oneiros Drakontos said:

In my opinion the Hightowers and the Daynes came from the Great Empire of Dawn.

I agree 

[hnv]

The first men appear to be a label for various tribes of men that crossed over a long period of time and settled Westeros. Their features appear to be Gaelic by our world's standards. Over thousands of years the tribes became a unified ethnic group not so dissimilar to how Germanic tribes became German (although quite a few were in fact Slavs).

The Hightowers and Daynes excluded as we: 

a/ never hear them referred to as FM where other ancient southern houses that are take pride in it and point it out.

b/ their looks and location suggest they were somehow there before the first men. 

I personally think both are scions of TGEOTD, the empire that also genetically created the Valyrians. But I think George will never elucidate the facts of the dawn of days further and keep it for fandom

[Corvo the Crow]

Really got to ask this, how come people always bring Hightowers up in these topics? Daynes I understand but we have no description of Hightowers, at all. Jorah said that Danaerys looks like Lyness and that's it and what is her description? 

Quote

"Aye, and all the rest," said Dacey. "She had hair like spun gold, that Lynesse. Skin like cream. But her soft hands were never made for axes."

This is Maege and her girls talking about her. Gold hair, cream like skin. Nothing at all suggesting Valyrian coloring, wouldn't they mention it if she had, say, purple eyes?  Eyes that are uncommon?

Quote

That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

And this is Catelyn thinking about Ashara. What does she think of? Her eyes, violet and haunting. Violet eyes that are uncommon. 

Seriousy, why do people keep saying Hightower?

[Tyrosh Lannister]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Really got to ask this, how come people always bring Hightowers up in these topics? Daynes I understand but we have no description of Hightowers, at all. Jorah said that Danaerys looks like Lyness and that's it and what is her description? 

This is Maege and her girls talking about her. Gold hair, cream like skin. Nothing at all suggesting Valyrian coloring, wouldn't they mention it if she had, say, purple eyes?  Eyes that are uncommon?

And this is Catelyn thinking about Ashara. What does she think of? Her eyes, violet and haunting. Violet eyes that are uncommon. 

Seriousy, why do people keep saying Hightower?

Alerie has silver hair, lynesse has silver hair, alicent also may have had silver hair (Jaehaerys mistakes her for one of his daughters)

 

EDIT: not to mention, the fused stone structure on battle isle, which were the home of the old hightowers. Advanced technology.. they are from the great empire of dawn

[Corvo the Crow]

32 minutes ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

Alerie has silver hair, lynesse has silver hair, alicent also may have had silver hair (Jaehaerys mistakes her for one of his daughters)

 

Alerie has 4 children, one aged 23(Garlan), we don't even know how old is Willas. Even if she gave birth at 16 and Willas is only a year older than Garlan she's 40, we know of characters hair going grey even at early 30s(like Ned with his beard). Lyness has gold hair, as said in quote. 

[direpupy]

12 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Really got to ask this, how come people always bring Hightowers up in these topics? Daynes I understand but we have no description of Hightowers, at all. Jorah said that Danaerys looks like Lyness and that's it and what is her description? 

Its not there physical appearance, its the fact that there is evidence they where already living on Battle isle before the first men came and that the fortress there is made of fused black stone.

[Corvo the Crow]

3 hours ago, direpupy said:

Its not there physical appearance, its the fact that there is evidence they where already living on Battle isle before the first men came and that the fortress there is made of fused black stone.

And what was this evidence? Again, something talked about over and over again but no evidence to back  it as far as I recall. If the fused black stone was Hightower’s work, why did they have Brandon build a tower? Why did they have a rickety old wooden tower  over the black stone foundation? Why not make a tower of black stone in the first place?

What about Ironborn? They have black stone too in the form of seastone chair, were they here before as well? Are they kin with Hightowers? Yet earliest memories of Oldtown include Ironborn carrying it’s citizens off to slavery because Oldtown had no defenses apart from the black stone foundation of The high tower which itself is not made of that stone.

For a universe with such lacking worldbuilding, people read too much into the Great Empire of Dawn thing which is just Yi Ti(Planetos China) legend.

[direpupy]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

And what was this evidence? Again, something talked about over and over again but no evidence to back  it as far as I recall. If the fused black stone was Hightower’s work, why did they have Brandon build a tower? Why did they have a rickety old wooden tower  over the black stone foundation? Why not make a tower of black stone in the first place?

What about Ironborn? They have black stone too in the form of seastone chair, were they here before as well? Are they kin with Hightowers? Yet earliest memories of Oldtown include Ironborn carrying it’s citizens off to slavery because Oldtown had no defenses apart from the black stone foundation of The high tower which itself is not made of that stone.

For a universe with such lacking worldbuilding, people read too much into the Great Empire of Dawn thing which is just Yi Ti(Planetos China) legend.

Firstly i agree that too much is read into the Great Empire of the Dawn, i do not adhere to the many theory's about that.

As for they evidence that the Hightowers where there before the First Men, they evidence is not strong i agree but there is evidence. First there is the clear statement that men lived at the site of Oldtown before the First Men came (see first quote), and secondly the suggestion that the Hightowers where not First Men (see second quote). Again they evidence is not strong but it is the reason people keep bringing them up, i personally do not believe they predate the First Men but many fans do.

I hope that answers your question on why people keep bringing them up in these conversations.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Oldtown
We can state with certainty, however, that men have lived at the mouth of the Honeywine since the Dawn Age. The oldest runic records confirm this, as do certain fragmentary accounts that have come down to us from maesters who lived amongst the children of the forest. One such, Maester Jellicoe, suggests that the settlement at the top of Whispering Sound began as a trading post, where ships from Valyria, Old Ghis, and the Summer Isles put in to replenish their provisions, make repairs, and barter with the elder races, and that seems as likely a supposition as any.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Oldtown
The reasons for the abandonment of the fortress and the fate of its builders, whoever they might have been, are likewise lost to us, but at some point we know that Battle Isle and its great stronghold came into the possession of the ancestors of House Hightower. Were they First Men, as most scholars believe today? Or did they mayhaps descend from the seafarers and traders who had settled at the top of Whispering Sound in earlier epochs, the men who came before the First Men? We cannot know.

[Corvo the Crow]

3 hours ago, direpupy said:

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Oldtown
We can state with certainty, however, that men have lived at the mouth of the Honeywine since the Dawn Age. The oldest runic records confirm this, as do certain fragmentary accounts that have come down to us from maesters who lived amongst the children of the forest. One such, Maester Jellicoe, suggests that the settlement at the top of Whispering Sound began as a trading post, where ships from Valyria, Old Ghis, and the Summer Isles put in to replenish their provisions, make repairs, and barter with the elder races, and that seems as likely a supposition as any.

First quote doesn’t make sense at all and is filled with contradictory information. We know when  Valyria was founded and it is after/around the Long Night. We don’t know exactly how long ago was this but it was at the very least 5000 years ago as evidenced by Asshai texts being that old. Perhaps Asshai put it to text immediately after or perhaps it did so 3000 years later.

[hnv]

11 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

First quote doesn’t make sense at all and is filled with contradictory information. We know when  Valyria was founded and it is after/around the Long Night. We don’t know exactly how long ago was this but it was at the very least 5000 years ago as evidenced by Asshai texts being that old. Perhaps Asshai put it to text immediately after or perhaps it did so 3000 years later.

I'm pretty sure the long night is the dated to the formation of the Ghiscari empire, that we have on good source happened when the Valyrians were still fucking sheep.

They definitely weren't a force to be reckoned with that far back so BI and the 5F north of Yi Ti remain a mystery in that regards.

[Corvo the Crow]

38 minutes ago, hnv said:

I'm pretty sure the long night is the dated to the formation of the Ghiscari empire, that we have on good source happened when the Valyrians were still fucking sheep.

They definitely weren't a force to be reckoned with that far back so BI and the 5F north of Yi Ti remain a mystery in that regards.

Yes I thought Ghis was before LN and Valyria around it ended but no, Ghis was founded around the time it ended so Valyria even later.

Quote

As Westeros recovered from the Long Night, a new power was rising in Essos. The vast continent, stretching from the narrow sea to the fabled Jade Sea and faraway Ulthos, seems to be the place where civilization as we know it developed. The first of these (not withstanding the dubious claims of Qarth, the YiTish legends of the Great Empire of the Dawn, and the difficulties of finding any truth in the tales of legendary Asshai) was rooted in Old Ghis: 

How can Valyria predate Westeros when it was founded long after LN ended?

Perhaps the escaped sheep built these like escaped slaves built Braavos.

[direpupy]

15 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

First quote doesn’t make sense at all and is filled with contradictory information. We know when  Valyria was founded and it is after/around the Long Night. We don’t know exactly how long ago was this but it was at the very least 5000 years ago as evidenced by Asshai texts being that old. Perhaps Asshai put it to text immediately after or perhaps it did so 3000 years later.

As i said they evidence is not strong and i personally do not believe in it. But you asked why people keep bringing them up and this is they answer.

I am personally more upset with people saying the Dayne's predate the First Men because for them there is no evidence at all, just an assumption based on a physical description. And fan fiction theory's that try to link the sword Dawn to the last hero and/or Azor Ahai.

[hnv]

6 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Yes I thought Ghis was before LN and Valyria around it ended but no, Ghis was founded around the time it ended so Valyria even later.

How can Valyria predate Westeros when it was founded long after LN ended?

Perhaps the escaped sheep built these like escaped slaves built Braavos.

World Of is written from the point of view of a Westrosi maester. Ghis is closer whereas As'shai is itself nearly legendry. everything beyond it is borderline mythical. But if we take the existence of Stygai, K'dath or the Five Forts as real that would imply some civilization predated old Ghis. Add to that the strange city in Sothryos and other "black rock" places like the Hightower and that lends additional credibility to "the great civilization before the LN" theory.

 

I don't think George is going to throw us more here, especially with places like Stygai or the Five Forts. But I'm sure we'll get more about As'shai in the coming books and that's going to shed some light into all these issues

[Gilbert Green]

What is a "race"?  When different peoples share the same land, they will, within a few centuries, if not sooner, become mixed and homogenous, both culturally and genetically.  And this shared cultural and genetic heritage will likely be different from those of different lands.

[Golos2022]

1 hour ago, Gilbert Green said:

What is a "race"?  When different peoples share the same land, they will, within a few centuries, if not sooner, become mixed and homogenous, both culturally and genetically.  And this shared cultural and genetic heritage will likely be different from those of different lands.

No, not necessarily.

Quote

 

The Genetic Distance between Indians of different castes is massive, similar to the distance between entirely different ethnic groups in rest of the world. 

The two largest castes in Uttar Pradesh, the Yadav and Chamar, are more distant genetically than Germans and Greeks.

The next two largest castes in Uttar Pradesh, the Brahmins and Kshatriyas (Rajputs), are as genetically distant as the Irish are from the Swiss.

Note that similar, if not greater distances, can be found across populations in Pakistan and South India as well. 

Castes living in the same village for thousands of years are completely disparate genetically.

G25 was used for the above analysis.

 

https://twitter.com/ArainGang/status/1559394781603631104

 

[Gilbert Green]

12 minutes ago, Golos2022 said:

No, not necessarily.

https://twitter.com/ArainGang/status/1559394781603631104

Well okay.  But I did not think we were talking about whether Lords, for instance, were genetically distinct from commoners.  I'm sure, at least, that the Lords saw it that way.