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Whatever happened to Shiera Seastar?


_Bittersteel_

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On 11/18/2022 at 1:03 PM, Frey family reunion said:

The theory I read, is that Melisandre is the daughter of Shiera and Bloodraven.  

bloodraven - Seastar. Azor Ahai, born under a bleeding star. Which would be ironic since Mel is so set on finding Azor Ahai. A journey of self discovery. 

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2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

In Mendelian genetics, for recessive traits, you need two copies. Not that GRRM would know much genetics beside highschool(or was it earlier?) Mendelian genetics anyway, but as I said, Bloodraven would need two copies and both of these two to be de novo mutations is extremely unlikely. And how would you even know if Shiera or the parents were carrying a recessive trait that won't manifest itself because there is only a single copy? Are parents of Albino children in our world look to be carrying? Do all albino children from the same parents have siblings that are only albinos? Not to mention the fact that Valyrians themselves are leukistic anyway.

The way I thought it would work is that either Bloodraven was albino by chance or Aegon was a recessive carrier and Bloodraven's mother was also a recessive carrier. The thing is I'm not sure if inheriting albinism is as simple as that. It may be controlled by multiple genes. And there is no history of any albinism on either side of Bloodraven's family. Also Leukism is not quite the same. I just think it would be unlikely that a potential child of Bloodraven and Shiera would be albino, and furthermore, I am not convinced that Melisandre having red eyes means she's albino. The red eyes could be due to magic or glamour. She could be dying her hair but so far there is no evidence for it. She mentions powders but no hair dye. But time will tell because if she is using dye I doubt she can get any more just now, so unless she has a huge stock she would likely run out.

Another issue with genetics is that they don't work like real life genetics and also don't follow their own rules within the story.

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So just for everyone's information albinism is a umbrella term for several genetic disorders (see list below) all but one form is passed via autosomal recessive inheritance pattern. This means a child has to get 2 copies of the gene that causes albinism (1 from each parent) to have the condition. 

List of albinism types

oculocutaneous albinism (OCA) (this one has 8 sub-types)
ocular albinism (this one is they exception to  the autosomal recessive inheritance pattern and is caused by a defect in the X chromosome but curiously occurs almost exclusively in males) 
Hermansky-Pudlak syndrome
Chediak-Higashi syndrome
Griscelli syndrome

 

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As to eyes, albino's often also have Waardenburg syndrome which is a form of Heterochromia iridum which is the likely cause of shiera's heterocromia going by the description of her eyes. A Japanese study of children with albinism in fact showed every single one had Waardenburg syndrome. So shiera may herself have been a albino, the fact that she is not described as one is irrelevant because not all forms come with the super white skin and hair, so in a medieval setting with medieval level healthcare, people would not be able to identify most forms of albinism.

Further there is the common myth that albino's have red eyes this is not true. Although lighting conditions can allow the blood vessels at the back of the eye to be seen, which can cause the eyes to look reddish or violet, most people with albinism have blue eyes, and some have hazel or brown eyes.

For those who payed attention, yes violet eyes are a sign of albinism, in fact it is said that you can not have purple/violet eyes (in the real world) without albinism. Although this appears not to be true because in some light, blue eyes in people whiteout albinism can also appear purple such as in the case of Elizabeth Taylor who had blue eyes but in some pictures appeared to have purple eyes.

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Lost me at "mellisandre is albino."  Zero evidence of that.....her eyes are deep red, not pink, and her skin is just pale, like every redhead I've ever met.

Plus, her history includes being sold as a child.  She's not Shiera. 

In all likelyhood, Shiera is long dead.  She isn't Quaithe either.....no mismatched eyes on Quaithe (and we do get a description of her eyes.)

If Quaithe is anyone, she's the grand daughter of Shiera or Farman.

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Not all loose ends need be resolved.  It is possible that Shiera's descendants, if any, will have no effect on any future plot, and we will never need to find out any more about them.

Alternatively, perhaps we will find that she allied herself by marriage with the Blackfyres, and is a grandma of one or more persons associated with the Varys/Illyrio/fAegon conspiracy.

As for Shiera herself, I think she is dead.  I don't think she survived long enough to be Quaithe or Melisandre.  I can't absolutely rule out a life prolonged by magic, but I think the odds are against it

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21 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

The thing is I'm not sure if inheriting albinism is as simple as that. It may be controlled by multiple genes.

It doesn’t even matter, GRRM wouldn’t know. If any genetics is involved, it’d be simple Mendelian genetics. Eye color was thought to be as such but it is now known, for more than a decade, to be a polygenetic trait and yet many people talk about it as if it’s not because it isn’t common knowledge. Do you think GRRM made extensive research on the subject when his entire worldbilding is lackluster? Of course he didn’t.

 

21 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

She could be dying her hair but so far there is no evidence for it. She mentions powders but no hair dye. But time will tell because if she is using dye I doubt she can get any more just now, so unless she has a huge stock she would likely run out.

Going with the same logic, does she mention scissors and cutting her hair? Since she doesn’t, perhaps her hair doesn’t grow and she doesn’t need to dye.

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On 11/19/2022 at 7:19 AM, hnv said:

That sounds implausible. She clearly has memories of herself as Melory being sold as a Slave. And she would have definitely been more savvy with her dealings with Westrosi. Why wouldn't Bloodraven contact her through the flames before she reaches the wall? 

 

Sometimes people are just dead.

Exactly. Bloodraven himself says that he looks into the past to see the woman he desired. And yes, I know greenseeing allows you to see the living too, but he's referencing her while talking to Bran about seeing dead relatives. It makes sense that Shiera is dead, just like Daeron, the brother that Bloodraven loved and Bittersteel, the brother that he hated.

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  • 2 months later...

Shiera is Quaithe...

Quote

Dany had not noticed Quaithe in the crowd, yet there she stood, eyes wet and shiny behind the implacable red lacquer mask.

Daenerys III, Clash 40

Quote

 

“You’ve known queens and princesses. Did they dance with demons and practice the black arts?”

“Lady Shiera does. Lord Bloodraven’s paramour. She bathes in blood to keep her beauty."

 

The Sworn Sword

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On 11/20/2022 at 3:15 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

Add to these the fact that Melisandre is older than she looks(can't find the quote)

I think this is what you're referring to, from ADWD 31:

Quote

R’hllor spoke to his chosen ones through blessed fire, in a language of ash and cinder and twisting flame that only a god could truly grasp. Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price. There was no one, even in her order, who had her skill at seeing the secrets half-revealed and half-concealed within the sacred flames.

I think that phrase, "years beyond count," is the only clue that Melisandre may be older than she looks. But it's a pretty strong one.

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19 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Shiera is Quaithe...

Daenerys III, Clash 40

The Sworn Sword

I understand this thinking, but honestly it would be super disappointing if the only character detail used to make this connection is the eyes and there is no mention of them being different colors.

To me this quote rules out the possibility that Quaith is Shiera as much as it supports it, if not more.

Could the different colored eyes be a retro, gardener style, addition, sure, the mask or glamours could be used to explain it, but I don't love it.

On 11/24/2022 at 9:49 PM, James Steller said:

Exactly. Bloodraven himself says that he looks into the past to see the woman he desired. And yes, I know greenseeing allows you to see the living too, but he's referencing her while talking to Bran about seeing dead relatives. It makes sense that Shiera is dead, just like Daeron, the brother that Bloodraven loved and Bittersteel, the brother that he hated.

This is always an interesting quote to examine. Side note, I think it is worth questioning if Daeron was really the "brother he loved".

"You saw what you wished to see. Your heart yearns for your father and your home, so that is what you saw."
"A man must know how to look before he can hope to see," said Lord Brynden. "Those were shadows of days past that you saw, Bran. You were looking through the eyes of the heart tree in your godswood. Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past."
"But," said Bran, "he heard me."
"He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves. You cannot speak to him, try as you might. I know. I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it."

I'm still of the opinion that Bloodraven is admitting he has trouble speaking through dreams (through the trees) here. And I mean at all, not just to the past. After all, the past and present are the same to a tree.

But then again, I'm pretty convinced that Bloodraven is not the three eyed crow.

I also think it's noteworthy that Shiera is not alone among missing Targaryen Princesses.

"You've known queens and princesses. Did they dance with demons and practice the black arts?"
"Lady Shiera does. Lord Bloodraven's paramour. She bathes in blood to keep her beauty. And once my sister Rhae put a love potion in my drink, so I'd marry her instead of my sister Daella."
Egg spoke as if such incest was the most natural thing in the world. For him it is. The Targaryens had been marrying brother to sister for hundreds of years, to keep the blood of the dragon pure. Though the last actual dragon had died before Dunk was born, the dragonkings went on. Maybe the gods don't mind them marrying their sisters. "Did the potion work?" Dunk asked.
"It would have," said Egg, "but I spit it out. I don't want a wife, I want to be a knight of the Kingsguard, and live only to serve and defend the king. The Kingsguard are sworn not to wed."
"That's a noble thing, but when you're older you may find you'd sooner have a girl than a white cloak."

Egg, whose mother was a Dayne, will eventually marry Betha Blackwood.

What happened to his, and Aemon's, sisters and their children is not known.

"It must be you. Tell them. The prophecy . . . my brother's dream . . . Lady Melisandre has misread the signs. Stannis . . . Stannis has some of the dragon blood in him, yes. His brothers did as well. Rhaelle, Egg's little girl, she was how they came by it . . . their father's mother . . . she used to call me Uncle Maester when she was a little girl. I remembered that, so I allowed myself to hope . . . perhaps I wanted to . . . we all deceive ourselves, when we want to believe. Melisandre most of all, I think. The sword is wrong, she has to know that . . . light without heat . . . an empty glamor . . . the sword is wrong, and the false light can only lead us deeper into darkness, Sam. Daenerys is our hope. Tell them that, at the Citadel. Make them listen. They must send her a maester. Daenerys must be counseled, taught, protected. For all these years I've lingered, waiting, watching, and now that the day has dawned I am too old. I am dying, Sam." Tears ran from his blind white eyes at that admission. "Death should hold no fear for a man as old as me, but it does. Isn't that silly? It is always dark where I am, so why should I fear the darkness? Yet I cannot help but wonder what will follow, when the last warmth leaves my body. Will I feast forever in the Father's golden hall as the septons say? Will I talk with Egg again, find Dareon whole and happy, hear my sisters singing to their children? What if the horselords have the truth of it? Will I ride through the night sky forever on a stallion made of flame? Or must I return again to this vale of sorrow? Who can say, truly? Who has been beyond the wall of death to see? Only the wights, and we know what they are like. We know."

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On 11/18/2022 at 3:43 PM, James Steller said:

There's a fan theory that she's Melisandre, but I really hope it's not true. 

I'm betting that she was Mel's mother, before she returned to Westeros as the spice merchant's wife who later became known as Maggy the Frog. That's how we get the same heart-shaped face for Shiera, Mel and . . . wait for it . . . Jeyne Westerling.

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

I'm betting that she was Mel's mother, before she returned to Westeros as the spice merchant's wife who later became known as Maggy the Frog. That's how we get the same heart-shaped face for Shiera, Mel and . . . wait for it . . . Jeyne Westerling.

Now that's a good thought! 

Shiera is in the same league as other mysterious "missing" female characters who just seemed to drop out of the story with no further explanation:

Rohanne Webber,
Alys Rivers,
and some Targaryen princesses such as Rhae as @Mourning Star points out,
Night's Queen - what happened to her after the fall of Night's King is not revealed. 

The uniting factor is sorcery or allusions to the use of magic so there's definitely something going on there.
I would add Nettles and Arya to the list. We do have an idea where Nettles might have ended up but as in Arya's case, in-world characters in Westeros are not aware of what became of them. 

I think the heart-face links between Shiera, Mel and Jeyne Westerling as well as the connection between the missing women are intentional and that at least some of these characters, if not all, serve to illuminate the back story of the Night's Queen. 

 

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9 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

S H I E R A

Are His

Eras is

Hire as

Rashie

Speaking of anagrams, the Dothraki term for "Bleeding Star" is "shierak qiya" and noted in the fandom for its similarity to “Shiera" and Seastar.  We can spin this further. Like the comet that disappears into space and returns at some distant point in time, Shiera vanishes from the annals of history only to return in the form of Mel and Jeyne Westerling (heart-shaped faces). So perhaps the bleeding star is related to the bleeding heart - a symbol of love and purity, but also representative of beautiful young women who die in a tragic way.  At this point one gets Nissa Nissa vibes. 

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