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What prevents Jaime from having a proper redemption arc ?


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6 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Why do people think this when he pushed Bran out a window, presumably with the intent to kill him so he didn't reveal Jaime's dirty little secret, and it was only by luck that Bran didn't die?

that's my question too . it's funny , I consider myself a Jaimie fan , I root for him to redeem himself and even if he doesn't I enjoy his chapters, regardless of that. yet , I am baffled by the comments that Jaimie's a true hero ! no people , he was a hero in the moment he killed Aerys or when he saved Brienne in the bear pit . most of the times Jaimie is faaaaaaar from a hero . even if we are willing to forget about Bran's attempted murder because " a father was protecting his family" or his threats against Edmure because "he never meant to do it " , what about his own confession that he was ready to kill or maim a 9 yr old Arya just because his lover moaned "I want.." during sex and he assumed she wants the child's death?

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32 minutes ago, SeanF said:

What if Edmure said no?

Do you think Jaime would have said “Okay, you win.”

Jaime has given all the orders about what to do before he even went to Edmure. The threat to Edmure was his last attempt to find a bloodless solution, that's all.

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4 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Jaime has given all the orders about what to do before he even went to Edmure. The threat to Edmure was his last attempt to find a bloodless solution, that's all.

Agreed.  He did not want blood  shed.  But, he was prepared to shed it.  And, if Edmure had held out, following through on his threat to kill his infant would be the obvious thing to do.

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52 minutes ago, Dofs said:

In front of Edmure, Ryman Frey and Edwyn Frey, Ilyn Payne, Strongboar, and 'Queen of Whores'. Not in front of his army.

He knows the words are going to spread fast if he says it in front of those people, hence the "let them all hear it."

 

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Must you make me say the words? Pia was standing by the flap of the tent with her arms full of clothes. His squires were listening as well, and the singer. Let them hear, Jaime thought. Let the world hear. It makes no matter. He forced himself to smile, 

He knew well enough that once he said those words in front of his men and people that would tell the tale to his men, he'd have no choice but to carry the threat.

 

54 minutes ago, Dofs said:

So what

So everyone including Jaime keep going on and on about how foolish it is to make empty threats and... Jaime makes another empty threat?

Is Tywin making empty threats too? Or is the other side surrendering to your threat equal of bluffing?

 

57 minutes ago, Dofs said:

No, he didn't want to threaten Edmure at all and hoped Edmure would agree on Jaime's first proposal.

And then he threatens him in front of everyone, forcing him to carry out his threat if refused.

 

57 minutes ago, Dofs said:

The threat itself was Tywin-style. The threat that was a low blow and for Jaime a shitty thing to do. This is where he compares himself with Tywin.

Not at all. The difference is that Tywin carries out those threats, that what sets him apart. 

Making empty threats is the most unTywin  thing ever.

 

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

Literally never happened.

 

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“Ser Edmure is on his way to Casterly Rock as my captive. His wife will remain at  the Twins until their child is born. Then she and the babe will join him. So long as he does not attempt escape or plot rebellion, Edmure will live a long life.” “Long and bitter. A life without honor. Until his dying day, men will say he was afraid to fight.” Unjustly, Jaime thought. It was his child he feared for. He knew whose son I am, better than mine own aunt.

Again, Tywin does not kill children.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Agreed.  He did not want blood  shed.  But, he was prepared to shed it.  And, if Edmure had held out, following through on his threat to kill his infant would be the obvious thing to do.

Jaime wouldn't have been able to follow through his threat because it was an unrealistic nonsense.

He has given all the orders to his men, then he went to Edmure and threatened him with literally the worst things popping into his mind at the moment, going for the shock value, rather then anything realistic he would be even able to do, and if Edmure saw the bluff and still refused, Jaime would have proceeded with his previous orders.

It's that simple.

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6 minutes ago, Dofs said:

He has given all the orders to his men

What orders does he give? Iirc, the only thing we have is him thinking about charging to Riverrun first, the war council ends without a conclusion because all the options were kinda terrible and him deciding to go to Edmure

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46 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

Edmure because "he never meant to do it " , what about his own confession that he was ready to kill or maim a 9 yr old Arya just because his lover moaned "I want.." during sex and he assumed she wants the child's death?

This is very bad as well. I am also disturbed that maiming little girls is the sort of thing Cersei thinks of during sex.

It would seem, based on the previous observation, that some people cannot accept characters (e.g. Stannis, Daenerys, Jaime) with flaws attached, so they have to come up with ridiculous convoluted explanations as to why these people are 100% morally pure.

Edited by Craving Peaches
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Jaime's intention is to be a better person, he wants to be honourable and honoured for it - so he's improved already.

The problem is where the path ends. Jaime is a Lannister, and has been immersed in Tywin's world since birth. He doesn't know any better. Tywin can give his people peace and plenty, at the cost of occasional horror shows like Castamere and the Red Wedding, and ongoing enforcement at the hands of the Mountain, Amory Lorch, the Brave Companions, Qyburn, the Tickler etc - all Tywin's beasts. This is the Lannister lesson Cersei tries to teach Sansa - it is better to be feared than loved. And Jaime has taken that lesson to heart - he uses fear to achieve peace. It's Tywin's path he's on.

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5 hours ago, frenin said:

He knows the words are going to spread fast if he says it in front of those people, hence the "let them all hear it."

The "let them all hear it" bit wasn't when Jaime was talking about idle threats to Ryman.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

He knew well enough that once he said those words in front of his men and people that would tell the tale to his men, he'd have no choice but to carry the threat.

Jaime's whole reaction was about shame and reputation. He just didn't want those who were in the tent, particularly Pia and his squires, to think he was an asshole. But then he set his priorities of tying to end the whole thing without bloodshed and then went with the threat anyway. That's what his "let them all hear it" thoughts are about. That a good reputation is not the most important thing he should be chasing.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

So everyone including Jaime keep going on and on about how foolish it is to make empty threats and... Jaime makes another empty threat?

Except Ryman was wasting his time with Edmure and making it obvious for everyone that his threats are idle. Jaime before making the threat first ensured that Edmure would believe it wasn't idle and then id Edmure wouldn't buy, was planning to proceed differently anyway.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

Is Tywin making empty threats too? Or is the other side surrendering to your threat equal of bluffing?

It's not about empty threats. It's about what was threatened. That's where Jaime has compared himself with Tywin.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

And then he threatens him in front of everyone, forcing him to carry out his threat if refused.

Who would be forcing him? The threat was so ridiculous, Jaime wouldn't even be able to do it even if he wanted it.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

Again, Tywin does not kill children.

Yeah, the threat Jaime made was a low blow and Jaime understood it.

4 hours ago, frenin said:

What orders does he give? Iirc, the only thing we have is him thinking about charging to Riverrun first, the war council ends without a conclusion because all the options were kinda terrible and him deciding to go to Edmure

The war council ends with him ordering to prepare for an attack at the first light of the next day. Then he went to Edmure.

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2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Jaime's intention is to be a better person, he wants to be honourable and honoured for it - so he's improved already.

The problem is where the path ends. Jaime is a Lannister, and has been immersed in Tywin's world since birth. He doesn't know any better. Tywin can give his people peace and plenty, at the cost of occasional horror shows like Castamere and the Red Wedding, and ongoing enforcement at the hands of the Mountain, Amory Lorch, the Brave Companions, Qyburn, the Tickler etc - all Tywin's beasts. This is the Lannister lesson Cersei tries to teach Sansa - it is better to be feared than loved. And Jaime has taken that lesson to heart - he uses fear to achieve peace. It's Tywin's path he's on.

Granted Tywin's way isn't shown to be incorrect by the events of the story; quite the opposite since no amount of love saves the Starks, in fact it causes more trouble (read: Catelyn's motherly love for Bran being the match to the powder keg).

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14 minutes ago, Dofs said:

The "let them all hear it" bit wasn't when Jaime was talking about idle threats to Ryman.

No, it was when Jaime was making "idle threats" to Edmure that he would absolutely need to carry out if refused.

 

15 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Jaime's whole reaction was about shame and reputation. He just didn't want those who were in the tent, particularly Pia and his squires, to think he was an asshole. But then he set his priorities of tying to end the whole thing without bloodshed and then went with the threat anyway. That's what his "let them all hear it" thoughts are about. That a good reputation is not the most important thing he should be chasing.

Or that his words are going to be heard, "let the world hear", he's making sure that everyne knows about his words.

 

20 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Except Ryman was wasting his time with Edmure and making it obvious for everyone that his threats are idle. Jaime before making the threat first ensured that Edmure would believe it wasn't idle and then id Edmure wouldn't buy, was planning to proceed differently anyway.

Still with an empty threat. 

Edmure does not cave when Jaime does that,  he only caves when he threatens his kid and he Jaime does by channeling his fake Tywin persona.

 

25 minutes ago, Dofs said:

It's not about empty threats. It's about what was threatened. That's where Jaime has compared himself with Tywin.

Anyone can threaten children and Lords do all the time. Ned took Theon just for that reason.

Yet instead of having him prisoner, he made him a sibling of his sons.

The only difference is that Tywin is well known for killing children and not hesitating to do so. Hence why Jaime is thinking of the trebuchet, since it's partcularly cruel and hence Tywin.

 

28 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Who would be forcing him? The threat was so ridiculous, Jaime wouldn't even be able to do it even if he wanted it.

How so?

If he literally fails to comply with his threats he is making himself what his name Frey. He has to.

 

29 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Yeah, the threat Jaime made was a low blow and Jaime understood it.

It's only a low blow if he means it. As Tywin would have it.

 

30 minutes ago, Dofs said:

The war council ends with him ordering to prepare for an attack at the first light of the next day. Then he went to Edmure.

Nothing he says to Edmure contradicts his plan of attack.

He just said they'd attack, he doesn't say how.

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3 hours ago, frenin said:

No, it was when Jaime was making "idle threats" to Edmure that he would absolutely need to carry out if refused.

The phrase has nothing to do with Jaime needing or not needing to carry out any threats.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

Or that his words are going to be heard, "let the world hear", he's making sure that everyne knows about his words.

I mean, the whole scene is painfully obvious:

1) Jaime provides generous terms

2) Edmure instead of just accepting asks Jaime what happens in he refuses

3) Jaime doesn't want to tell him the threat - "Must you make me say the words?"

4) He is conscious that Pia and his squires are in the room as well - "Pia was standing by the flap of the tent with her arms full of clothes. His squires were listening as well, and the singer."

5)  But he just decides to proceed: - "Let them hear, Jaime thought. Let the world hear. It makes no matter."   What makes no matter? The idea of him being an asshole, of course. Making such a threat was an assholish thing to do and hence he didn't want to do it, especially in front of others, with the likes of Pia and Peck. But then he would not stop being seen as an asshole anyway, thus the 'whole world' can hear it, it makes no matter.

He in this moment kinda also sacrifices his hope to not be seen as a douchebag for what he felt he needed to do.

6) This is his own reaction after he finished the threat - "Silence followed his speech. Edmure sat in his bath. Pia clutched the clothing to her breasts. The singer tightened a string on his harp. Little Lew hollowed out a loaf of stale bread to make a trencher, pretending that he had not heard." He is painfully conscious of his surroundings, like a guy doing something embarrassing in public. Blackmailing people against the lives of their family would be against Jaime's code even before he lost his hand, when he would deal with his opponents head on, with his sword in his hand. Now it especially wouldn't be.

Jaime hence doesn't congratulate himself for making the threat. It's clear when he sets free everyone from Riverrun's household and Genna tells him that it's not the time to be chivalrous, as this is what he thinks - "Ask Edmure how chivalrous I am, thought Jaime. Ask him about the trebuchet. Somehow he did not think the maesters were like to confuse him with Prince Aemon the Dragonknight when they wrote their histories." Jaime for half of Feast longs that he would be remembered at least partly like Aemon the Dragonknight. This is definitely not what he wanted to do at all.

 When Jaime tried to emulate Tywin, it was for stuff like making people on the council listen to him, he did not want to emulate him in making dirty threats and unhonourable blackmails. So, when he thinks"If his aunt had been there, would she still say Tyrion was Tywin's son?", it's irony and bitterness that speaks in him.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

Edmure does not cave when Jaime does that,  he only caves when he threatens his kid and he Jaime does by channeling his fake Tywin persona.

Edmure does not cave in when Jaime does what?

3 hours ago, frenin said:

Anyone can threaten children and Lords do all the time. Ned took Theon just for that reason.

Yet instead of having him prisoner, he made him a sibling of his sons.

The only difference is that Tywin is well known for killing children and not hesitating to do so. Hence why Jaime is thinking of the trebuchet, since it's partcularly cruel and hence Tywin.

See above

3 hours ago, frenin said:

How so?

If he literally fails to comply with his threats he is making himself what his name Frey. He has to.

If you read the threat, half of it consists of literal nonsense that he can't do even if he wants to.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

t's only a low blow if he means it. As Tywin would have it.

Not for Jaime, again, see above.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

Nothing he says to Edmure contradicts his plan of attack.

He just said they'd attack, he doesn't say how.

He says to start preparations. That means people know how.

What he said to Edmure was literally the worst things that were popping into his mind at the moment when he was telling them. He himself was surprised about the trebuchet bit, where his imagination led him to. He wasn't trying to match his previous orders to his soldiers with the threat he was making at all.

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8 hours ago, Dofs said:

The phrase has nothing to do with Jaime needing or not needing to carry out any threats.

The phrase has everything to do with a leader needing to carry out threats so they are not seen as idle.

 

Is it tho?

  1. Jaime provides tens, generous depends on the subject (besides the fact that Jaime was lying too but...)
  2. Emmure asked what'll happen if he refuses.
  3. Jaime doesn't want to tell the threat.
  4. He is aware that other people are listening.
  5. But it does not matter. "Let them hear, Jaime thought. Let the world hear. It makes no matter."  What makes no matter? The fact that he is listened to, the fact that his words are going to be spread very soon (Let the world hear).
  6. His own reaction is to congratulate himself, he is aware of the effects his words have caused and he likes it. 
Quote

Silence followed his speech. Edmure sat in his bath. Pia clutched the clothing to her breasts. The singer tightened a string on his harp. Little Lew hollowed out a loaf of stale bread to make a trencher, pretending that he had not heard. With a trebuchet, Jaime thought. If his aunt had been there, would she still say Tyrion was Tywin's son?

Ever since Genna tells him that Jaime's not Tywin's real son, he's been trying to emulate his father to prove her wrong and Tywin is the opposite of chivalry, doesn't change the fact that Jaime wants to look like him and actually likes looking him. Both he and Cersei have the same disease.

As i said threatening children is not uncommon, both Ned and Jon do it but only with people like Tywin do the threatened 100% believe the threat.

 

9 hours ago, Dofs said:

Edmure does not cave in when Jaime does what?

He ony caves when Jaime threatens his child.

 

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If you read the threat, half of it consists of literal nonsense that he can't do even if he wants to.

 

I have read the threats... What's the literal nonsense he can't do even if he wants to?

 

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Not for Jaime, again, see above.

For Jaime.

 

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He says to start preparations. That means people know how.

What he said to Edmure was literally the worst things that were popping into his mind at the moment when he was telling them. He himself was surprised about the trebuchet bit, where his imagination led him to. He wasn't trying to match his previous orders to his soldiers with the threat he was making at all.

Start preparations... That does not mean people know how, it means the army must be ready to attack. The order and manner of attack is completely up to Jaime and he has not discussed it with his men, at least not yet.

What he says is the fairly standard, it's obvious that the Riverlords would need to go first, especially because they absolutely hate the Lannisters and will turn on them at the first chance, he himself distrusts the Freys so they'd go second and no quarter orders are fairly normal in long sieges.

Jaime's threat is at all special, if the Lannisters were forced to storm the castle, they'd bleed dry and they would be in no forgiving mood. And he has trebuchets to use if the baby just happens to be burn during the siege.

He has given absolutely no previous orders to his soldiers about to proceed so there really is little to match at all.

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@freninYou’re right.  None of this makes Jaime an outlier.  Jon would have killed wildling children, had their parents revolted.  Ned would have killed Theon, had Balon revolted.  Neither would have enjoyed doing so.  Dany faced problems in Meereen, once it became clear that her threats were hollow.

If Edmure had held out, Jaime would have had to follow through.

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4 hours ago, SeanF said:

Jon would have killed wildling children, had their parents revolted.  

I missed this.  When does Jon threaten to murder children?

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

Ned would have killed Theon, had Balon revolted.  

I missed this too.

We never even get to the question of whether Ned would have carried out his threat to murder Theon.  He never makes the threat in the first place.

Edited by Gilbert Green
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13 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

I missed this.  When does Jon threaten to murder children?

I missed this too.

We never even get to the question of whether Ned would have carried out his threat to murder Theon.  He never makes the threat in the first place.

When the wildlings pass through the Wall, Jon explicitly threatens their children, should they revolt.  This is to reassure his men that he is not a soft touch, but like Jaime, had they defied him, he would have to make good on his threat.

Theon was a hostage for his father’s good behaviour, at Winterfell.

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32 minutes ago, SeanF said:

When the wildlings pass through the Wall, Jon explicitly threatens their children, should they revolt. 

Threatened child-murder?  Maybe he did.  Can you find me the quote where Jon threatens to murder a Wildling child?

32 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Theon was a hostage for his father’s good behaviour, at Winterfell.

He was.  But this neither implies that Ned ever threatened to murder him; nor that Ned would have carried out the threat.

Medieval hostage taking was an institution.  The implied danger, and implied deterrent, are inherent in the situation.  It was rather like forging alliances through political marriages.  It says nothing about whether a particular person would or would not be willing to murder a child.  Sometimes, hostages were murdered when things went sour, but usually they were not.  When King Stephen took William as a hostage, and William's father broke the truce, only then King Stephen was enraged enough to threaten to hang William.  But when William's father continued to defy him, King Stephen could not bring himself to carry out his threat.  I guess he did not want to burn in hell, or something.

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1 hour ago, Gilbert Green said:

Threatened child-murder?  Maybe he did.  Can you find me the quote where Jon threatens to murder a Wildling child?

He was.  But this neither implies that Ned ever threatened to murder him; nor that Ned would have carried out the threat.

Medieval hostage taking was an institution.  The implied danger, and implied deterrent, are inherent in the situation.  It was rather like forging alliances through political marriages.  It says nothing about whether a particular person would or would not be willing to murder a child.  Sometimes, hostages were murdered when things went sour, but usually they were not.  When King Stephen took William as a hostage, and William's father broke the truce, only then King Stephen was enraged enough to threaten to hang William.  But when William's father continued to defy him, King Stephen could not bring himself to carry out his threat.  I guess he did not want to burn in hell, or something.

Ned always maintained a distance from Theon, because he knew that he might have to execute him.  Execution of a hostage is not necessarily the only option, when their parent rebels, but it certainly is an option.  And, if Balon had rebelled, and Robert ordered Theon's execution, then Ned would have done as he was commanded, reluctantly.

And this is Jon discussing the matter of hostages with the chiefs of the mountain clans.  Italics are his thoughts.

             “Hostages,” mused The Norrey. “Tormund has agreed to this?”

              It was that, or watch his people die. “My blood price, he called it,” said Jon Snow, “but he will pay.”

“Aye, and why not?” Old Flint stomped his cane against the ice. “Wards, we always called them, when Winterfell demanded boys of us, but they were hostages, and none the worse for it.”

“None but them whose sires displeased the Kings o’ Winter,” said The Norrey. “Those came home shorter by a head. So you tell me, boy … if these wildling friends o’ yours prove false, do you have the belly to do what needs be done?”

Ask Janos Slynt.  “Tormund Giantsbane knows better than to try me. I may seem a green boy in your eyes, Lord Norrey, but I am still a son of Eddard Stark.”

Nothing implies that Jon would have done this lightly, or not felt bad about it, but he now has the welfare of thousands resting on the decisions which he takes.

 

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2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Ned always maintained a distance from Theon, because he knew that he might have to execute him. 

According to you, yes.  The text does not say that.

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Execution of a hostage is not necessarily the only option, when their parent rebels, but it certainly is an option. 

It is.  Murder, including murder of children, is always an option.  And there are always some people who will do it 

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

And, if Balon had rebelled, and Robert ordered Theon's execution, then Ned would have done as he was commanded, reluctantly.

Well then.  It was a good thing for Ned and Robert that Lord Arryn was a better man than you imagine Ned to be. 

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

And this is Jon discussing the matter of hostages with the chiefs of the mountain clans.  Italics are his thoughts.

             “Hostages,” mused The Norrey. “Tormund has agreed to this?”

              It was that, or watch his people die. “My blood price, he called it,” said Jon Snow, “but he will pay.”

Nothing so far here.   "watch his people die" refers to the threat of the Others and the elements, not to any threat by Jon.  "blood price" refers to a payment made for past bloodshed by wildlings; not an offering for the purposes of future bloodshed.  The wildling chiefs are surrendering their children to make up for the blood they have shed  Similarly, Quentyn was Doran's "blood price" for the murder of Lord Yronwood; not because Doran expects Quentyn to be murdered, but rather because Lord Yronwood has already been murdered.

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

“Aye, and why not?” Old Flint stomped his cane against the ice. “Wards, we always called them, when Winterfell demanded boys of us, but they were hostages, and none the worse for it.”

Old Flint reports that not only did the Lords of Winterfell usually not murder their hostages, they did not even call them hostages.  They called them "wards". 

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

“None but them whose sires displeased the Kings o’ Winter,” said The Norrey. “Those came home shorter by a head. So you tell me, boy … if these wildling friends o’ yours prove false, do you have the belly to do what needs be done?”

The Norrey is a cynical wicked man, and an apparent advocate of child murder.  Here, he does seem to be hinting that he thinks Ned ought to murder hostages.  But he is no doubt correct that the Kings o' Winter were not all saints, and there were occasions when wards would get murdered.

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Ask Janos Slynt.  “Tormund Giantsbane knows better than to try me. I may seem a green boy in your eyes, Lord Norrey, but I am still a son of Eddard Stark.”

Jon dodges The Norrey's question.  He could have said, "Yes Lord Norrey, I would chop off the heads of 100 innocent children".  But he doesn't.

His private thought "Ask Janos Slynt" could be taken as implying that be willing to execute hostages.  But the answer is as vague as the "what needs to be done" question.  Janos Slynt was executed for his own rebellion, not that of his parents.  And Jon just spoke openly of some hostages joining the Black Brothers.  In any event, he does not utter it out loud.  So he never threatens murder.  And no idea of honor obligates him to carry out that threat.

You evidently read "I am still the son of Eddard Stark" as "yes, I am indeed an advocate of child murder like my evil child murdering daddy."  Hmf.  Is that really what Ned was all about?  I seem to recall his dispute with Robert over the necessity of murdering dragon-spawn.  And it's not as though Robert did not have a point.  Leaving Rhaegar's children alive could indeed lead to future war.   If anything, his argument was more compelling than the one you are making now about the necessity of murdering hostages.  But Ned still strongly disagreed.

My guess is that the remark merely means that Janos Slynt haunts Jon's conscience, and that Norrey's justifications remind him of his own justifications.

That Jon has grown cold and hard is a theme of the story, though, and GRRM may be setting up something here.  But whether or not Jon actually would murder hostages remains to be seen.

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Nothing implies that Jon would have done this lightly, or not felt bad about it, but he now has the welfare of thousands resting on the decisions which he takes.

It remains to be seen what Jon would do.  As for Ned, I think he would no more have murdered an innocent child hostage, than he would have approved of the murders of Elia and Aegon.

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